50/1 flop spot
 

50/1 on prima 3 handed, had been playing for <10 hands. i had stacked villain last hand where i rr JJ out of teh SB and got it all in on 752r flop, his 86 no good.

eff stacks 10k

i open 1010 to 400 on btn (the hand after i stacked villain), villain calls out of the bb

flop QQ6r (850)

he checks i bet 600 he insta raises pot to 2650.

He has 6900 behind and its 2050 to me

edited w/ positions

Re: 50/1 flop spot
 

is he SB or BB? this matters because it shows if hes reraising 86 or calling rrs with 86 (given positions of prior hand).

anyways i am calling and reevaluating. never folding flop.

Re: 50/1 flop spot
 

This is def a tough spot, but with given the description I think I just call down, If he's bluffing I def expect him to keep betting in this spot, and I can't see him flatting that many Q's

Re: 50/1 flop spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
is he SB or BB? this matters because it shows if hes reraising 86 or calling rrs with 86 (given positions of prior hand).

anyways i am calling and reevaluating. never folding flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

edited

Re: 50/1 flop spot
 

call, call seems fine, without any further reads or some sort of bad juju on the turn card.

Re: 50/1 flop spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
call, call seems fine, without any further reads or some sort of bad juju on the turn card.

[/ QUOTE ]

what turn would make you fold? certainly not an a or k right?

Re: 50/1 flop spot
 

Who is the villain in the hand?

Re: 50/1 flop spot
 

jesus this is a fken [censored] spot.

i'd find a way to stack off, not sure how tho, definitely a spot where his range should be a LOT of air, which you're ahead of obv.

what about 5150 call shove?

Re: 50/1 flop spot
 

Ike- why doesn't a K affect your play on a turn. An Ace, I assume is because you don't believe he would make this raise on the flop. Correct me if I'm wrong please.

edit to add- If the above carries clout (not fearing the A/K on the turn) then I like calling the flop with the intention of c/r the turn.

Re: 50/1 flop spot
 

whatever u do don't fold, call and call turn all in is better than flop all in but both are fine. Since this is prima I'm assuming he's a euro. can't ever fold to the euros

Re: 50/1 flop spot
 

Who is villain? and are you a prima regular?

Re: 50/1 flop spot
 

all in

Re: 50/1 flop spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
jesus this is a fken [censored] spot.

i'd find a way to stack off, not sure how tho, definitely a spot where his range should be a LOT of air, which you're ahead of obv.

what about 5150 call shove?

[/ QUOTE ]

heh maybe a bit too much here. id rather call and stack off on the turn

Re: 50/1 flop spot
 

Player dependent obv. His range seems to be very wide. I would call since we have position and re-evaluate on turn. I would fold to a bet on turn.

Re: 50/1 flop spot
 

i think its close between call/call and call/fold assuming he shoves turn.

Re: 50/1 flop spot
 

reraise or call.

Re: 50/1 flop spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
what turn would make you fold? certainly not an a or k right?

[/ QUOTE ]
I am sort of a noob here.

Why isn't he likely to have A or K here? Like low suited ace (maybe A6s even? or would he just plain call A6 because it has some showdown value?), or KJs/KTs?

And why isn't he likely to have smth like QJs/QTs?

Re: 50/1 flop spot
 

Brutal spot. I think I call/fold to a turn bet. I hate playing marginal big pots against players that could be steaming from the previous hand, I find it messes with my perception of their hand too much. He could very well be protecting a 6 or something stupid with his flop-raise so I think you should never really be folding flop here. Would hate to call flop and see an all in if a K hits though. Weird spot.

Re: 50/1 flop spot
 

I don't mind a min-raise call shove. There is no way you should get away from this. He only has a Q 9% of the time randomly.

Re: 50/1 flop spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what turn would make you fold? certainly not an a or k right?

[/ QUOTE ]
I am sort of a noob here.

Why isn't he likely to have A or K here? Like low suited ace (maybe A6s even? or would he just plain call A6 because it has some showdown value?), or KJs/KTs?

And why isn't he likely to have smth like QJs/QTs?

[/ QUOTE ]

usually when they turn an A or K they now have showdown value and no need to bluff you. they also might fear a Q

Re: 50/1 flop spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Who is villain? and are you a prima regular?

[/ QUOTE ]

a1b2 (or some variation) was villain (i think his location was somewhere in Great Britain), & no, i am far from a prima reg

my thoughts were that players will pretend they are steaming after losing a big pot more than they are actually steaming. But 1010 has too much value here to fold on the flop. If i call his flop c/r, then i should not be folding on any turn, but he should know that, and therefore bluff a very small % of the time on the turn, making a fold more correct. Gah, idk, hsnl help me out.

Also i think rr'ing the flop is bad, because when all the $ goes in, i am shown a Q very often.

Re: 50/1 flop spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
But 1010 has too much value here to fold on the flop. If i call his flop c/r, then i should not be folding on any turn, but he should know that, and therefore bluff a very small % of the time on the turn, making a fold more correct.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that this is a very good post. If you think that he's really not on tilt, then I'd be calling the flop and mostly folding to his turn bets. If he is tilting, you should be calling the turn with a higher frequency.

Also, what if you flat it and he checks to you on the turn, what's the plan then?

Re: 50/1 flop spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Who is villain? and are you a prima regular?

[/ QUOTE ]

a1b2 (or some variation) was villain (i think his location was somewhere in Great Britain), & no, i am far from a prima reg

my thoughts were that players will pretend they are steaming after losing a big pot more than they are actually steaming. But 1010 has too much value here to fold on the flop. If i call his flop c/r, then i should not be folding on any turn, but he should know that, and therefore bluff a very small % of the time on the turn, making a fold more correct. Gah, idk, hsnl help me out.

Also i think rr'ing the flop is bad, because when all the $ goes in, i am shown a Q very often.

[/ QUOTE ]

good post but you might be underestimating how easily the euros go on monkey tilt

Re: 50/1 flop spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
good post but you might be underestimating how easily the euros go on monkey tilt

[/ QUOTE ]

hehe so true

Re: 50/1 flop spot
 

Yeah,

there are so many differences between european players and american's. In europe we usually make fun of americans that we love to have them at the table and such, but a lot of you guys are really really nitty (no fun in playing Stars or Full Tilt).

I play 2,5/5 and 5/10 at Betfair and Everest and the average pot is about 3 times higher. Limping seems everyone's favourite sport around here.

Oh and don't fold this against A1B2. Unless off course the board get more f*cked up on the turn.

Re: 50/1 flop spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Oh and don't fold this against A1B2. Unless off course the board get more f*cked up on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

what does the turn have to do with your calling/folding? u think he might have A6 and therefore ud fold on an A turn?

Re: 50/1 flop spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also i think rr'ing the flop is bad, because when all the $ goes in, i am shown a Q very often.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't agree with this thinking at all. to most people, a call with look stronger than a raise. against a crazy euro who can do this with 88 (for value, to protect, ebcasue he thinks he has the best hand) or A 6 or something, he wants to get it in. if you want to make YOUR line look bluffy, 3-betting the flop is good too. I thin khe's FOS a lot, but i don't think his continuation % on the turn is THAT much higher than his shove % if you did something wacky like make the flop 5100.

yes, obviously we'd rather him have raised the flop to 2100 instead of 2600, giving us more room to manuever, but whatever.

Re: 50/1 flop spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also i think rr'ing the flop is bad, because when all the $ goes in, i am shown a Q very often.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't agree with this thinking at all. to most people, a call with look stronger than a raise. against a crazy euro who can do this with 88 (for value, to protect, ebcasue he thinks he has the best hand) or A 6 or something, he wants to get it in. if you want to make YOUR line look bluffy, 3-betting the flop is good too. I thin khe's FOS a lot, but i don't think his continuation % on the turn is THAT much higher than his shove % if you did something wacky like make the flop 5100.

yes, obviously we'd rather him have raised the flop to 2100 instead of 2600, giving us more room to manuever, but whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're right, of course, if our opponent is a logical thinking player. however, against a tilting spewtard eurofish, he's way more likely to bluff stacks than to call off a stack light. most of his bluffing range is pairless here I think, and those hands won't call a shove, but will often spew the turn when we call. if we had room, a minreraise is kinda the best of both worlds, but i dont know that we do.

Re: 50/1 flop spot
 

you cant rr flop with this little behind.

Re: 50/1 flop spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
you cant rr flop with this little behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

thats certainly not true. the board is so dry that you can literally minraise and still put a lot of pressure on him.

Re: 50/1 flop spot
 

you dont think calling is infinitely better than min3betting?

edit: im all for small reraises, but not here.

Re: 50/1 flop spot
 

also why do we want to put lots of pressure on him when we have a bluff catcher?

Re: 50/1 flop spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
you dont think calling is infinitely better than min3betting?

edit: im all for small reraises, but not here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that in exactly the spot sub described, calling is the correct play (though far from infinitely better). With identical stacks/board but different metagame considerations, I think reraising small can be better. I was just taking issue with your claim that with this little left to play there was no reason to reraise on the flop.

[ QUOTE ]

also why do we want to put lots of pressure on him when we have a bluff catcher?


[/ QUOTE ]

we would want to put the pressure on with a bluff catcher in a situation like this because we want to balance the times we make the same bet with air, intending fold to a shove. minrr'ing when we want to continue as opposed to calling becomes more appealing as we widen the villain's range to the point that we want to frequently play back with unpaired hands that can't call down.

Re: 50/1 flop spot
 

yea i kind of wanted to retract my 2nd post there after i posted it. i think we share the same thoughts really, cant find anything that i disagree with.

Re: 50/1 flop spot
 

$4875/call shove

Re: 50/1 flop spot
 

i shove this on the flop

Re: 50/1 flop spot
 

[ QUOTE ]
i shove this on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]
welcome tourney player

Re: 50/1 flop spot
 

Insta raising is kinda deceptive and of course theres a possibility he has trips.

Using the info provided, he could be on tilt but as you mentioned he is a regular and one buyin really doesnt effect them.

I think calling down is the best play over a r/r. You allow yourself a chance to get away from the JJ and if he is bluffing you maximize value.