Cashing in a re-buy without re-buying?
 

Is this hard to do? I was thinking of playing the $3 re-buy 25K guarantee a few times, but my strategy is not to re-buy, as i only have a small BR.
All i have to do is get in the top 500ish then i will get like $21. It sounds like a good deal to me, and i might even get lucky and make it deep once or twice, that would be great for my BR.
But, will i have to build my stack so big that I'm better of playing regular tourneys?

Re: Cashing in a re-buy without re-buying?
 

Also, can someone elaborate on rebuying?
Why do it, when do you do it, what's it for exactly, and is it a good idea to do it whether your short or big stacked at the time?

Re: Cashing in a re-buy without re-buying?
 

The whole point of the rebuys allows for some crazy people to keep pushing early on to build up a monster stack before the rebuy period ends.

Without rebuying, you're going to have to pick a few spots early on to keep doubling up. If you play scared poker, most players are going to have you dominated in chips because they've been making the aggressive gambling moves.


In short; yes it's possible, but it's going to be harder on you limiting yourself to one buy in when everyone else has multiple.

Re: Cashing in a re-buy without re-buying?
 

I'm assuming this is the Pokerstars tournament - and I've played a good number of their rebuys.

You start with 1500 chips for the first $3. Anytime you are at T1500 or less, you can rebuy T1500 for $3 (this means if you are at T0, you can reload to T3000 for $6). At the end of level 4 (one hour), all players may addon T2000 for a final $3. At this point, the rebuys are done and the tournament becomes a traditional freezeout (lose all your chips and you go home).

Rebuys tend to play quite bizarre - people will randomly shove ATC in the rebuy period. Their goal is to build a large stack regardless of cost, expecting to be able to use it to profit later. This means there will be a TON of chips in play early. Generally at the end of the rebuy period, the average stack will be over T10,000.

It is possible to profitably play this tournament on a set budget - the absolute minimum would be $9 (rebuy at beginning, addon at break), and generally $15 or $21 (one or two double rebuys) is a reasonable budget.

However, if you are primarily concerned with bankroll - do not play this tournament. It's not designed to favor players with your strategy and you'll struggle to accumulate the necessary chips.

I would suggest avoiding tournaments in general in what I understand to be your situation, as they are extremely high varience. It's just not worth the risk of going broke. Mix in an occasional tournament, but focus elsewhere - you can make the small steady gains that you need in cash or SNG play.

Re: Cashing in a re-buy without re-buying?
 

You might find the 2.20 to the Sunday 100k to be a good roll-builder. I've used it from time to time when I've dropped low in funds, and it's helped.

Re: Cashing in a re-buy without re-buying?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm assuming this is the Pokerstars tournament - and I've played a good number of their rebuys.

You start with 1500 chips for the first $3. Anytime you are at T1500 or less, you can rebuy T1500 for $3 (this means if you are at T0, you can reload to T3000 for $6). At the end of level 4 (one hour), all players may addon T2000 for a final $3. At this point, the rebuys are done and the tournament becomes a traditional freezeout (lose all your chips and you go home).

Rebuys tend to play quite bizarre - people will randomly shove ATC in the rebuy period. Their goal is to build a large stack regardless of cost, expecting to be able to use it to profit later. This means there will be a TON of chips in play early. Generally at the end of the rebuy period, the average stack will be over T10,000.

It is possible to profitably play this tournament on a set budget - the absolute minimum would be $9 (rebuy at beginning, addon at break), and generally $15 or $21 (one or two double rebuys) is a reasonable budget.

However, if you are primarily concerned with bankroll - do not play this tournament. It's not designed to favor players with your strategy and you'll struggle to accumulate the necessary chips.

I would suggest avoiding tournaments in general in what I understand to be your situation, as they are extremely high varience. It's just not worth the risk of going broke. Mix in an occasional tournament, but focus elsewhere - you can make the small steady gains that you need in cash or SNG play.

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I have decided to try it out a few times and see how i do. If i don't cash 5 times in a row then i will stop playing them. But, if i do manage to cash i will win about 8 or 9 times my buy-in back, so i really can afford to fail a few times.
I am playing the $3 re-buy right now and I'm doing quite well. I have found it quite easy to double up a few times, because of the fact that everyone is playing a bit crazy.
All i done was wait for some decent hands then go allin, you will get called by almost anything. So, i think its a good idea, it pretty easy to reach average chips by the end of the re-buy period, and if i cash i get 9 times my buy-in. So, i can really afford to bust out early in these a few times and it will still be profitable.

Re: Cashing in a re-buy without re-buying?
 

Cool. I do think it is a +EV strategy (largely from experience)...just very high varience.

Re: Cashing in a re-buy without re-buying?
 

Its very possible. I made it to 40th a couple nights ago $3 rebuy...with only $6 my first double buy..no add on. read your opponents right...and set them up..double a couple times and you'll do well...good luck..let us know how it goes

Re: Cashing in a re-buy without re-buying?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, can someone elaborate on rebuying?
Why do it, when do you do it, what's it for exactly, and is it a good idea to do it whether your short or big stacked at the time?

[/ QUOTE ]

Simply, the best strategy in a rebuy is to take every single rebuy to which you are entitled, and always add-on (if there's an add-on) unless you have at least 10% of the total chips in play. When you see the buy-in, multiply it by 7 in your mind. That should represent the average amount you should expect to spend.

Many players approach the rebuy period with the intention of gambling a lot with a goal of building up a big stack. In reality, how you play during the rebuy period will depend a lot on how your table is playing. Wild tables with 2 or 3 rebuy maniacs are great. If you catch cards you can amass a huge stack with a minimal investment.

Re: Cashing in a re-buy without re-buying?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is this hard to do? I was thinking of playing the $3 re-buy 25K guarantee a few times, but my strategy is not to re-buy, as i only have a small BR.
All i have to do is get in the top 500ish then i will get like $21. It sounds like a good deal to me, and i might even get lucky and make it deep once or twice, that would be great for my BR.
But, will i have to build my stack so big that I'm better of playing regular tourneys?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bad idea. You're at a huge disadvantage if your intent is to not rebuy.

Re: Cashing in a re-buy without re-buying?
 

I don't think it's -EV to do what you are proposing, but I think it would be more +EV to just play $3 freezeouts or 4/180's (or even $5 SNG's) instead of going to a gunfight without a full supply of bullets.

Re: Cashing in a re-buy without re-buying?
 

[ QUOTE ]
going to a gunfight without a full supply of bullets.

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I once played in a $35.00 rebuy live tournament with the intention of playing with only $35.00.* I was lucky enough to place in the money; but after reading this thread, I'll never do it again. As SellingTheDrama said, I'm better off playing SNGs or cash games.

* I ended up rebuying once, and adding on; but that was after I was already in the money. Or else I was just confident that I would be in the money.

Re: Cashing in a re-buy without re-buying?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
going to a gunfight without a full supply of bullets.

[/ QUOTE ]

I once played in a $35.00 rebuy live tournament with the intention of playing with only $35.00.* I was lucky enough to place in the money; but after reading this thread, I'll never do it again. As SellingTheDrama said, I'm better off playing SNGs or cash games.

* I ended up rebuying once, and adding on; but that was after I was already in the money. Or else I was just confident that I would be in the money.

[/ QUOTE ]

It must be the latter because there is no way that you could be in the money during the rebuy period. Also the add-on was probably a waste if you were already confident youd be in the money.

The extra 6 or 7 M that you add-on is going to wind up being 1-2 M or less once youre past the money bubble and that is rarely going to make a difference. You're probably doubling up or going bust at some point and those chips just wont matter.

Re: Cashing in a re-buy without re-buying?
 

It is a viable strategy to buy in once, and quit when you bust out. It might not be as profitable as buying in as often as you can, but you aren't at a disadvantage unless the chips in rebuys and add-ons are cheaper. Because of the terrible play, you will have an easier time getting your money in with the best of it during the rebuy period than you will in most normal tournaments. If you get dealt QQ+, just push, and there is a good chance you will get called, possibly in more than one place. There is a much greater chance that someone will stack off lightly, either with a draw, or putting you on a draw.

Many players tilt when they see a large disparity in chips. They think a short stack can't harm them, or that it is hopeless to play against people with large stacks. Both of these are wrong, and you can outplay people by not tilting in these situations.

Buying in once, in a $3 rebuy, might be worth $6, for a profit of $3, and a 100% ROI. (I'll ignore the fee.) Buying in and then immediately rebuying, and then topping off your stack might be worth $15, for a profit of $6, and a 67% ROI. The extra $6 you spend only gives you an extra profit of $3. That's a good deal if your bankroll is large enough, but if you don't have a large bankroll, you may reasonably prefer the former.

Re: Cashing in a re-buy without re-buying?
 

if you don't rebuy-- make sure you at least add-on at break. Typically you get more chips for the same $ dollar amount at the break, so take that chance to getbuild your stack! Even if you have a big stack, you should always add-on.

Re: Cashing in a re-buy without re-buying?
 

There is one site that I play on where the freerolls are exclusively rebuys and add-ons. And you can rebuy as many times as you wish before the break as long as you are below 1,500 in chips, one add-on during the break for an additonal 2,000 in chips, and then it becomes a freezeout.

As we start with 1,000 in chips, my strategy is to do an immediate rebuy. This gives me more chips to play with in an effort to take more of another person's chips. I would rather have the extra chips and not need to use them than have the chance to use them and not have them.

And I always do the add-on.

Re: Cashing in a re-buy without re-buying?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
going to a gunfight without a full supply of bullets.

[/ QUOTE ]

I once played in a $35.00 rebuy live tournament with the intention of playing with only $35.00.* I was lucky enough to place in the money; but after reading this thread, I'll never do it again. As SellingTheDrama said, I'm better off playing SNGs or cash games.

* I ended up rebuying once, and adding on; but that was after I was already in the money. Or else I was just confident that I would be in the money.

[/ QUOTE ]

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It must be the latter because there is no way that you could be in the money during the rebuy period.

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Thanks, now I know. I'm a cash game player. I've never played a SNG, but I'll do that soon. I'm studying Collin Moshman's book now.

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Also the add-on was probably a waste if you were already confident youd be in the money.

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I thought it might make a difference what place I got. After the tournament, however, it seemed to me that I'd have ended with the same place whether I'd purchased the add-on or not. In the future, I'll add on, though – based on comments in this thread.

Re: Cashing in a re-buy without re-buying?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is this hard to do? I was thinking of playing the $3 re-buy 25K guarantee a few times, but my strategy is not to re-buy, as i only have a small BR.
All i have to do is get in the top 500ish then i will get like $21. It sounds like a good deal to me

[/ QUOTE ]

Methinks you shouldn't be playing poker or doing any other form of gambling for money, given that $9 is a serious bankroll hit and $21 "sounds like a good deal"

Re: Cashing in a re-buy without re-buying?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Methinks you shouldn't be playing poker or doing any other form of gambling for money, given that $9 is a serious bankroll hit and $21 "sounds like a good deal"

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Do you realize that this is the beginners forum? It is perfectly reasonable to start playing for pennies (e.g., playing NL $2, or $0.02-$0.04 limit). Should microstakes players all quit until they are willing to play for stakes you deem meaningful?

A lot of players decide to work up from a $50 deposit. Along the way, it is normal at some point to have the bankroll to play tournaments for $3, but not tournaments with a buy-in of $10. Don't play for higher stakes just because someone else turns his nose up at what you can afford.

Re: Cashing in a re-buy without re-buying?
 

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[ QUOTE ]

Methinks you shouldn't be playing poker or doing any other form of gambling for money, given that $9 is a serious bankroll hit and $21 "sounds like a good deal"

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Do you realize that this is the beginners forum?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I hit my head and thought I was replying in the High Stakes forum.



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It is perfectly reasonable to start playing for pennies (e.g., playing NL $2, or $0.02-$0.04 limit). Should microstakes players all quit until they are willing to play for stakes you deem meaningful?

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First, don't assume you know what I was talking about. Where did I ever say that playing micro limits was not "meaningful" ?

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A lot of players decide to work up from a $50 deposit. Along the way, it is normal at some point to have the bankroll to play tournaments for $3, but not tournaments with a buy-in of $10.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you telling me that a $50 bankroll allows players to play $3 tourneys? Much less, $3 rebuy tourneys where he can't afford to rebuy a few times?

Maybe I misinterpreted the OP's trepidation, but he sounds severely under-bankrolled and/or should not be playing at the level that he's talking about, given his cost concerns.

Re: Cashing in a re-buy without re-buying?
 

Here is a pretty good article regarding rebuy strtegy. http://tourneyacticles.wordpress.com...y-by-aawwnutz/

Re: Cashing in a re-buy without re-buying?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is this hard to do? I was thinking of playing the $3 re-buy 25K guarantee a few times, but my strategy is not to re-buy, as i only have a small BR.
All i have to do is get in the top 500ish then i will get like $21. It sounds like a good deal to me, and i might even get lucky and make it deep once or twice, that would be great for my BR.
But, will i have to build my stack so big that I'm better of playing regular tourneys?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bad idea. You're at a huge disadvantage if your intent is to not rebuy.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is true if you're a winning player .

In general the amount of times you need to re-buy really depends on your relative skill to the field . A player with a roi of 100% should re-buy ~ twice as often as the average player . At some point , the Law of Diminishing Returns asserts that it becomes incorrect to re-buy an exorbitant amount . If you're a marginally profitable player (roi = 5%) , then it may only be correct for you to re-buy once .

Re: Cashing in a re-buy without re-buying?
 

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Methinks you shouldn't be playing poker or doing any other form of gambling for money, given that $9 is a serious bankroll hit and $21 "sounds like a good deal"

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you realize that this is the beginners forum?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I hit my head and thought I was replying in the High Stakes forum.


[/ QUOTE ]
It looks that way.

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It is perfectly reasonable to start playing for pennies (e.g., playing NL $2, or $0.02-$0.04 limit). Should microstakes players all quit until they are willing to play for stakes you deem meaningful?

[/ QUOTE ]

First, don't assume you know what I was talking about. Where did I ever say that playing micro limits was not "meaningful" ?

[/ QUOTE ]
I responded to what you said. If you meant something other than common, ugly, unhealthy stakes-snobbery, maybe you should have said something else.

For someone playing NL $2, dropping 4.5 buy-ins may be a serious bankroll hit. For someone playing $0.02-$0.04 limit, dropping over 100 BB may be a serious bankroll hit. You said if losing $9 is a serious hit to your bankroll you should not play poker for money. I disagree.

I went from playing $0.01-$0.02 limit with $5 designated for poker to crushing NL $100 with a 5 figure poker bankroll in under one year. I still remember beating myself up for calling a massive overbet of $1 with QQ when I should have known better (I had notes on that opponent), even though I've since posted big blinds 1000 times as large. Valuable lessons can be learned while building a bankroll from pocket change.

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A lot of players decide to work up from a $50 deposit. Along the way, it is normal at some point to have the bankroll to play tournaments for $3, but not tournaments with a buy-in of $10.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you telling me that a $50 bankroll allows players to play $3 tourneys? Much less, $3 rebuy tourneys where he can't afford to rebuy a few times?

[/ QUOTE ]
No. I never said that. I said that along the way, at some point a player is likely to have the bankroll to play $3 tournaments, but not $10 tournaments. That might happen with a bankroll of $100, or $600, depending on the player's skill level and the size of the tournaments and just how soft they are, but it's not a surprise when it happens. The response should not be to stop playing poker for money when a player says he feels comfortable paying $3 to play a tournament, and not $9, or however much it will cost to play the rebuy. Similarly, if someone is comfortably bankrolled for NL $10 but not NL $25, it's fine to play NL $10, even though the player might win more money per hand at NL $25.

[ QUOTE ]

Maybe I misinterpreted the OP's trepidation, but he sounds severely under-bankrolled and/or should not be playing at the level that he's talking about, given his cost concerns.

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe he is underbankrolled. However, the exact same post could be made by someone who is properly bankrolled for $3 tournaments, who is wondering about $3 rebuy tournaments.

Re: Cashing in a re-buy without re-buying?
 

I'll be sending you a PM this weekend, to take this spat offline.

redandblue, if you could post your poker bankroll, that would possibly correct some misassumptions that I made, in my original reply.

Re: Cashing in a re-buy without re-buying?
 

I'm a total beginner, so ignore my post.

I think if your plan is to play ANY rebuy tournament you should have at the very least enough for 2 full buy-ins ($6 in this case) + $ for add-on. It doens't sound very ugly to play without rebuying but you have to realize that you'll probably face one of the 2 cases:

1 crazy table where people go for multi-way allin preflop with any2 broadway any pair any suited connector any suited gap connector etc, aka DONATION table

2 misclick table where people play rebuys like theyre freezeouts (what u plan on doing) and they are all waiting for premos to go for it.

Let's analyse those both alone & them I'll put it altogether:

case 1: you're in the perfect spot for building a big stack, people just shove a lot multi-way, u can even triple or quadruple up in one hand. So, what's wrong? Your equity goes to bustoville my dear. Your premo AA will be crushed by 86s all day long. And then what? You'll quit the tournament? There are still free chips as u have never seen and you'll quit because u won't rebuy? Doesn't sound like a good strategy to me.

case 2: needless to say, it'll be very hard to get action with ur premo if the others are waiting for it themselves.

Summary: To be able to fully appreciate the rebuy advantages you need to REBUY.

Got it?

Re: Cashing in a re-buy without re-buying?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Summary: To be able to fully appreciate the rebuy advantages you need to REBUY.


[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely 100%. When you decide to play a rebuy tourney without making any rebuys, you're reducing your profitability, so you would be better off to play a freeze-out, or a rebuy tourney (with rebuys) of a size that is accommodated by your bankroll.

Re: Cashing in a re-buy without re-buying?
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Summary: To be able to fully appreciate the rebuy advantages you need to REBUY.


[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely 100%.


[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, and to make the most money playing NLHE, you need to play games with a big blind that is at least $100. Anything else is wasting your $500/hour advantage...unless you don't have the skills or the bankroll to play for those stakes.

[ QUOTE ]
When you decide to play a rebuy tourney without making any rebuys, you're reducing your profitability,


[/ QUOTE ]
Probably, and you are also reducing your risk. I don't care about risking $3 or $300, but others might.

[ QUOTE ]
so you would be better off to play a freeze-out, or a rebuy tourney (with rebuys) of a size that is accommodated by your bankroll.

[/ QUOTE ]
First, that doesn't follow. If you have to choose between them, it might be better to play a $3 rebuy tournament, buying in once, than a normal $3 tournament. It also may not be better or possible to find a smaller rebuy tournament.

Second, you usually don't have to choose between them (online). You can treat each multitable tournament as a decision to play or not.

Bankroll management is about identifying which +E$ gambles are too risky, and which are acceptable risks. If you have the skills, and the bankroll, then buy in, rebuy immediately, rebuy whenever you bust out, and add on. If your have the skills and a smaller bankroll, the add-on may not be worth the risk, and you might only want to rebuy when you bust out early in the rebuy period.

You get the most profit for the variance on your initial buy-in. In fact, that initial buy-in may be better than buying into a normal tournament with the same prize pool, since the play is particularly bad in rebuy tournaments.

Re: Cashing in a re-buy without re-buying?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You get the most profit for the variance on your initial buy-in. In fact, that initial buy-in may be better than buying into a normal tournament with the same prize pool, since the play is particularly bad in rebuy tournaments.

[/ QUOTE ]

How much does the wider variance, caused the the rebuy structure and the "particularly bad" play you mentioned, affect this initial buy-in profit?

Or do we assume you've factored that in already, based on the $3 freezeout comparison, when stating that $3 rebuy with no rebuy plan is most profitable?

Re: Cashing in a re-buy without re-buying?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You get the most profit for the variance on your initial buy-in. In fact, that initial buy-in may be better than buying into a normal tournament with the same prize pool, since the play is particularly bad in rebuy tournaments.

[/ QUOTE ]

How much does the wider variance, caused the the rebuy structure and the "particularly bad" play you mentioned, affect this initial buy-in profit?

Or do we assume you've factored that in already, based on the $3 freezeout comparison, when stating that $3 rebuy with no rebuy plan is most profitable?

[/ QUOTE ]
I said, "with the same prize pool." Normally, the standard deviation per tournament increases with the number of players, and to a much lesser extent, with your advantage. In a rebuy tournament, if you buy in once, the effective number of players is the total number of buy-ins, rebuys, and add-ons, assuming those are all the same size.

It's a common assertion, in almost every form of poker, that worse play by your opponents causes greater variance. That's the fall back position for why bad play is supposed to hurt you after it is pointed out that with rare exceptions, your expected value increases when your opponents make mistakes. In some situations, the variance is lower, and in some it is higher, but even when it is higher, the added risk is usually safer than playing normal poker, so it decreases your bankroll requirements. Having a much higher ROI does increase your standard deviation slightly in multitable tournaments, e.g., someone with a ROI of 50% in a 200 player tournament may have a standard deviation 20% higher than someone with a ROI of 10%. However, the net effect is to decrease the bankroll requirements sharply.

Re: Cashing in a re-buy without re-buying?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Ok, and to make the most money playing NLHE, you need to play games with a big blind that is at least $100. Anything else is wasting your $500/hour advantage...unless you don't have the skills or the bankroll to play for those stakes.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't follow [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Cashing in a re-buy without re-buying?
 

Fix your sarcasm meter- it's broken

Re: Cashing in a re-buy without re-buying?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Ok, and to make the most money playing NLHE, you need to play games with a big blind that is at least $100. Anything else is wasting your $500/hour advantage...unless you don't have the skills or the bankroll to play for those stakes.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't follow [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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It helps if you don't clip the context of the analogy. This is what you said:
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To be able to fully appreciate the rebuy advantages you need to REBUY.

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Absolutely 100%. When you decide to play a rebuy tourney without making any rebuys, you're reducing your profitability,

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I pointed out that the decision of whether to buy in once, or to buy in as many times as possible and then add on, is similar to deciding at which stakes to play. If you have the skills and the bankroll, you will win more playing NL $10,000 than NL $10. That doesn't mean it is a mistake for people to "reduce their profitability" by playing NL $10.