HUSNG -- TT is fun.
 

This is something like the third hand, nothing as far as reads go.

Stacks are 1500/1500 with 10/20 blinds.

I raise from SB with TT (no club) to 60, he minraises to 100. Sometimes I'll re-raise, but I elected to call here. Any arguments for raising -- and if you do, what to?

Flop comes 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. He leads for 120 into the 200 pot. What's my move and why? If raise but not AI, what to and how do I respond to a 3-bet AI?

Re: HUSNG -- TT is fun.
 

Daily double:

From everyone's experience, what hands do people like minraising preflop with? How much of that range is TT+?

Re: HUSNG -- TT is fun.
 

i have a hard time getting away from TT. I usually 4bet preflop unless I have a read or some data that could lead me to believe that it would be -EV.

sometimes a min raise from villain could be bad for us. i dont mind how you played this hand but im raising this flop most of the time and trying to get it in there.

Re: HUSNG -- TT is fun.
 

Indiana,

What are you raising to?

He folds air, shoves sets, 99, JJ+ and probably the few flush draws in his range. Does your decision change if the flop was rainbow and not two tone? If you had 83 here, would you do the same thing? (only thing that changes is that 99,TT beat you now -- but you also pick up more outs).

Re: HUSNG -- TT is fun.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Indiana,

What are you raising to?

He folds air, shoves sets, 99, JJ+ and probably the few flush draws in his range. Does your decision change if the flop was rainbow and not two tone? If you had 83 here, would you do the same thing? (only thing that changes is that 99,TT beat you now -- but you also pick up more outs).

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nicho,

im raising to a little less than pot and prolly shoving most turns. and it doesnt really matter the texture of the board that you are detailing here. i kinda like how you played this hand by just calling pre flop, but i dont hate pushing pre either.

I'd like to hear what other posters think about the possibility of just flat calling on the flop in the face of incomplete reads here.

Indy

Re: HUSNG -- TT is fun.
 

I think the texture matters a lot. With a draw heavy flop, there are a lot more hands that'll call your raise and be behind. With a rainbow flop, there are less poor hands that'll call you.

Poker brain teaser: If you just flipped over your hands and the best hand wins the pot immediately (no turn or river), would you rather have 86 or 22?

Re: HUSNG -- TT is fun.
 

As far as the hand goes, a lot of it is over my head (and I think I would try to get all in preflop).

But with the brain teaser, I'm thinking we want 86. 88 and 66 are both in the villain's range, so with 22 we could lose to a higher set. Whereas with 86 it's much much less likely they hold 88 or 66, and so we just have to worry about 22. Hopefully that's right.

Re: HUSNG -- TT is fun.
 

[ QUOTE ]
As far as the hand goes, a lot of it is over my head (and I think I would try to get all in preflop).

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The problem is that there aren't many hands that the average opponent will get all in with preflop this deep that doesnt have you crushed (JJ+) or is a coinflip. Loose opponents may get in with lower pocketpairs, A7+ or something, so its a much better move vs them. Vs a tight opponent, you're a dog (33% equity) vs his range (TT+,AK). This early, I don't try to build a big preflop pot without a very good hand or without a read that my opponent is willing to get in weak.

Re: HUSNG -- TT is fun.
 

It is massively hard to get away from this hand. I think that what you are saying is that you are behind his range on the flop, if you include hands with flush potential, big pockets, etc. Against an opponent that I believe is tough, and that is your assumption (high roller?), then I would want to call the flop and shove a non-completing turn. It is the best way I can think to balance getting the max from draws, stalling a bluff and just out and out losing to a better hand.

Do you believe that this opponent is three-betting with something that hit that 8, 6 or 2? I am currently under the thinking that a good opponent isn't three betting with 22 or 66.

Re: HUSNG -- TT is fun.
 

[ QUOTE ]
It is massively hard to get away from this hand. I think that what you are saying is that you are behind his range on the flop, if you include hands with flush potential, big pockets, etc. Against an opponent that I believe is tough, and that is your assumption (high roller?), then I would want to call the flop and shove a non-completing turn. It is the best way I can think to balance getting the max from draws, stalling a bluff and just out and out losing to a better hand.

Do you believe that this opponent is three-betting with something that hit that 8, 6 or 2? I am currently under the thinking that a good opponent isn't three betting with 22 or 66.

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I'm saying I don't know.

There are way too many scare cards on the turn to call and re-evaluate I think. If a jack, queen, king, or ace comes and he bets, do we fold? How about a club? This is like half the deck -- it doesn't seem to be best anyway. If we're saying that those cards hit his range, then it means we let him draw out and made a mistake. Also, if the other half of the deck comes, we're still behind to JJ+ and now he's less likely to get in with a draw because there is only one card left. Calling seems really bad.

Yeah -- I have no idea what to do. I've been pointing out problems with various lines, but I don't have a good line myself.

Re: HUSNG -- TT is fun.
 

TT vs AKs (both spades):

Stove shows a bad case:

990 games 0.005 secs 198,000 games/sec

Board: 8s 6s 2d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 54.141% 54.14% 00.00% 536 0.00 { AsKs }
Hand 1: 45.859% 45.86% 00.00% 454 0.00 { TcTd }

For this reason alone that I would like to wait until I see a turn. I don't know if this is one of those situations where you are supposed to take the least worst of it, but if you have to lose the pot 1/2 of the time due to a scary turn, it is probably better than losing your full stack at a minimum of 54% to better hands and draws. Sure if I add on a bunch of big pairs and other club-hands, or equity would drop precipitously.

Ultimately, how do you feel about shoving PF? It seems that you would have FE and possible calls from hands like 88+ and big aces.

Re: HUSNG -- TT is fun.
 

I'll defer the calling on the flop line to others.

As for shoving preflop, you're shoving 1440 chips to win a pot of 60+100=160. He'll fold a lot, but when he doesn't you're crushed. See the post above about playing this vs an average opponent.

Re: HUSNG -- TT is fun.
 

Your right, shoving pf sounds like a bad case.

Re: HUSNG -- TT is fun.
 

Depends what kind of opponent you're playing.

I play a lot of guys that start min 3-betting me with a super wide range of hands (I, like most of you raise often OTB). If that's the case you can get a lot of players to see another street with hands that are terribly behind, or get Ax pairs on this board to shove over you on the flop.

A good reason to reraise preflop is that you've put in enough chips that it doesn't matter if villain only calls with hands ahead of you, there will generally be so many behind that he'll fold or if you're lucky even call with that it'll more than make up for it.

And I don't mind getting this in preflop against most villains.

Re: HUSNG -- TT is fun.
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is something like the third hand, nothing as far as reads go.

Stacks are 1500/1500 with 10/20 blinds.

I raise from SB with TT (no club) to 60, he minraises to 100. Sometimes I'll re-raise, but I elected to call here. Any arguments for raising -- and if you do, what to?

Flop comes 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. He leads for 120 into the 200 pot. What's my move and why? If raise but not AI, what to and how do I respond to a 3-bet AI?

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I make it 300 to go pre-flop .

On the flop , I would definitely raise to protect my hand from over-cards . I would call $120 and raise another 300 or so . If you're pushed all in , you'd be getting about 2:1 odds on the call which makes the decision difficult . I don't think you can go wrong either way but I probably lean towards calling .

Re: HUSNG -- TT is fun.
 

th 86 vs 22 question has really got me thinking. obviously 22 is marignally better than 86 (one hand up), but having 22 is only better if your opponent has precisely 86 (which they are unlikely to have if you have 86 anyway, as there are less 8s and 6s left in the deck). the advantage of 86 is that it is less likely your opponent has a set of 8s or 6s, and if they have a setof 2s you still have outs.

*maths interlude*

there is one combination of 88, one of 66, and 3 of 22 your opponent could have if you have 86, making 5 set combinations total.

there are 3 combinations of 88 and 3 of 66 if you hold 22, meaning there are 6 set combinations total.

*end*

this means that 86 is actually behind fewer hands. *BUT* that alone does not make it a better hand. over pairs have much greater equity vs it, which obviously weakens it. 86 also performs worse vs draws. I cannot be bothered to do the maths, but i am pretty sure its obvious that the better equity that 22 has against one pair hands more than makes up for the ONE additional hand it is behind.

This leads me to conclude that 22 is a much nicer hand to have in this situation as you would expect.

Re: HUSNG -- TT is fun.
 

tmc,

Equity wise, 22 is better, as you said. I said flipping the cards over without a turn or river, so your 5/6 analysis was what I was aiming at. Nice work.

Ryan and Jay,

Thanks for the input. I'll need to think it over some more.

Re: HUSNG -- TT is fun.
 

grunch

I rr pf to ~300.

On flop I'll make it ~400 and I'm getting it in most of the time on the turn. obv call if he shoves on flop.