AK v two donks Line check please
 

Poker Stars
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.25/$0.5
10 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is UTG+1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, 4 folds, <font color="#cc0000">CO 3-bets</font>, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (12.4SB, 4 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises</font>, Button folds, <font color="#cc0000">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#cc0000">CO caps</font>, BB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (12.2BB, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, Hero folds, <font color="#cc0000">CO calls all-in $0.15</font>.
Uncalled bets: 0.7BB returned to BB.

River: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (12.8BB, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: 12.8BB)


Results:
Final pot: 12.8BB

Both players were terrible calling raises with 82 and the like.Once I'd already called one flop bet I felt priced in to see the turn,does anyone think I should I should have ignored my read and let it go earlier?

Re: AK v two donks Line check please
 

(1) Why didn't you cap preflop??
(2) I am fine with the first call on the flop, but when it's two bets back to you, it's time to let it go. You may certainly be dominated by CO's hand and BB is saying he's beating an overpair ... although the pot is large, the action is not very good to continue drawing to overs.
(3) If you read BB for a donkey and CO for a stackofftiltmonkey, then the turn card really doesn't change anything. Since you called all those bets on the flop, you are now well priced to call one bet on the turn ... [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: AK v two donks Line check please
 

Since the CO is shortstacked, capping PF is not bad, you may have him dominated unless hes been waiting orbit after orbit to go in with a high pair.

If you are going to commit yourself to call two cold on the flop, believing your two overcards are clean, I would never fold the turn since you are getting solid odds.

You say the BB is a tard so he can easily be overplaying a pair + BDSD, 8x, or be strong and have a legimate hand such as 99 or 1010. The turn didnt change much, so if you thought you were on a clean draw on the flop, you are still on a clean draw on the turn.

Re: AK v two donks Line check please
 

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Since the CO is shortstacked, capping PF is not bad, you may have him dominated unless hes been waiting orbit after orbit to go in with a high pair.

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WTF. Who cares if he's shortshacked or not. By not capping preflop with a premium hand like AK you are losing value. Period.

Re: AK v two donks Line check please
 

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WTF. Who cares if he's shortshacked or not. By not capping preflop with a premium hand like AK you are losing value. Period.

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Against tards who have a wide 3 betting range or are shortstacked, yes I see the value in capping AKo PF. And this guy is a tard.

But do you cap PF everytime a villain 3 bets?

Many villains have a solid 3 betting range of 10s+/AK, where capping against a solid 3 bettor is marginal a lot of the time or -EV, depending who else is in the hand, if I remember my stoving experience. If the villain has a looser 3 betting range of AJs/AQs+ then yes I can see capping every time

Re: AK v two donks Line check please
 

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But do you cap PF everytime a villain 3 bets?



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Unless I have some sort of note or read, yes!

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Many villains have a solid 3 betting range of 10s+/AK,


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... and many do not. And this is not a "solid" range. 3-betting with AJs or 99 is a good play more often than not.

Re: AK v two donks Line check please
 

cap pf
fold the flop the 2nd time

Re: AK v two donks Line check please
 

Well AKs I am capping, AKo is close. However I play live with tards, and they have a really strict 3 betting range.

However realizing I play live and most of those villains do have strict predictible 3 betting ranges, and this is about an online hand, my advice is pretty null.

Re: AK v two donks Line check please
 

Cap preflop.

Fold flop to all those raises. We just have A high [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: AK v two donks Line check please
 

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Many villains have a solid 3 betting range of 10s+/AK, where capping against a solid 3 bettor is marginal a lot of the time or -EV, depending who else is in the hand, if I remember my stoving experience.

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Even if all this is true, you don't need 50% equity to make an equity cap multiway.

Re: AK v two donks Line check please
 

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Even if all this is true, you don't need 50% equity to make an equity cap multiway.

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Agreed, but I would like some more evidence (maths or data is fine), before auto capping pf with AKo.

You have good equity in a multiway pot against TT-QQ (even 99) pf 3-betters, but you are in deep trouble against AA &amp; KK.

Re: AK v two donks Line check please
 

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... and many do not. And this is not a "solid" range. 3-betting with AJs or 99 is a good play more often than not.

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I can understand 3-betting against a late position pf raiser with AJs or 99, and perhaps also against a middle position pf raiser. This is assuming that you knew that the pf raiser loosened their pf raising requirements with position.

However, I would not be comfortable with 3-betting an UTG pf raiser with AJs or 99, unless I knew that they were a very loose pf raiser.

Re: AK v two donks Line check please
 

[ QUOTE ]
Poker Stars
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.25/$0.5
10 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is UTG+1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, 4 folds, <font color="#cc0000">CO 3-bets</font>, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (12.4SB, 4 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises</font>, Button folds, <font color="#cc0000">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#cc0000">CO caps</font>, BB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (12.2BB, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, Hero folds, <font color="#cc0000">CO calls all-in $0.15</font>.
Uncalled bets: 0.7BB returned to BB.

River: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (12.8BB, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: 12.8BB)


Results:
Final pot: 12.8BB

Both players were terrible calling raises with 82 and the like.Once I'd already called one flop bet I felt priced in to see the turn,does anyone think I should I should have ignored my read and let it go earlier?

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cap pf, and if your read on BB is correct, then you likely have enough outs to call the turn bet.

Re: AK v two donks Line check please
 

I believe capping pre-flop with AK has a lot to do with implied odds when your TPTK holds up and weaker pairs/kickers pay you off.

Re: AK v two donks Line check please
 

grunch

Fold the flop after it gets 3 bet. Even though CO is stacking off, calling 2 back to you with just overs is bad.

Re: AK v two donks Line check please
 

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I believe capping pre-flop with AK has a lot to do with implied odds when your TPTK holds up and weaker pairs/kickers pay you off.

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Your implied odds are lowered by capping preflop. You cap preflop because you've got a decent equity edge against your opponents ranges.
Here I'd prefer to call because you have great relative position and our equity edge isn't going to be huge unless CO is a maniac. I think we can make up for .1bb-.2bb of lost ev by check-raising the field of favourable flops.

Re: AK v two donks Line check please
 

grunch... I would not call the 2 bets to me on the flop. You mentioned they habitually called raises with lousy cards. But on the flop, both are showing too much aggression for comfort.

And yes, given they are so loose, capping on flop would be good for value.

Re: AK v two donks Line check please
 

Flop call is marginal in my book. 3 outs, donked before you and 3-bettor yet to act. I'm not saying it's always a fold but it's something to take into consideration since you often have to pay 2 bets here.

Re: AK v two donks Line check please
 

* grunch *

Cap preflop.

As played, on the flop, once it's two back and CO still there waiting we have to assume we are behind, we don't have many outs and some of them might already be in the villains' hands. Fold once it's two back.

Wait - the CO is short stacked. That could mean his hand is even worse than usual and that he's willing to play over-aggro to try to win the pot by bluffs. Maybe not enough to continue to turn though.


As played, I'd call the turn when the pot gets this big.

Re: AK v two donks Line check please
 

I'd play the same way pf and also the first call on the flop, but facing two additional bets on the flop I need a better hand to continue. I'd let it go then...

Edit: concerning the capping vs. calling the 3-bet PF with AKo, I personally wouldn't cap with AKo. Past experience taught me AKo is not THAT good a hand. Simply making TPTK and having it hold up. And it's easily overplayed.
It's even my single most expensive hand in the last 20K+ I've played. Overplaying AKo might be a leak of mine.
But it also explains my reluctance to cap with it... [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: AK v two donks Line check please
 

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Cap preflop.

Fold flop to all those raises. We just have A high [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

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I generally do not cap this preflop unless I am against a LAGtard/maniac. Definitely time to dump after the failed attempt to peel for one SB in mid-position.

Re: AK v two donks Line check please
 

no offense OP, but if i saw you spewing chips postflop like this, i would call with all sorts of garbage preflop, just like these "donks" have.

you have to fold the flop after its two back to you.