Fun w/ AKs
 

Bellagio 30-60. BB in this hand is a 50ish Asian guy who knows how to play tight, winning poker, but gets frustrated easily. He's not the best player postflop, but he's not terrible either. He's just lost a couple hands, so I'm assuming he's on tilt right now. Also, I've been raising and 3betting a lot the past two orbits (specifically him a couple times, too).

Preflop:
The Dude raises A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] UTG. Folded to BB who hesitates (the vibe I got was that he almost folded) and calls.

Flop: (4.67 SBs) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 Players)</font>
BB checks, The Dude bets, BB calls.

Turn: (3.33 BBs) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
BB checks, The Dude bets, BB calls.

River (5.33 BBs) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
BB donks. The Dude...?

Re: Fun w/ AKs
 

i'd just call

Re: Fun w/ AKs
 

meh id raise if i can easily fold to 3

if not call

Re: Fun w/ AKs
 

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i'd just call

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Me too, although this is one of those times where I'm sure you're never getting 3-bet by a worse hand so you can fold 100% of the time, and he seems like the kind of guy who would cry-call a raise with a worse hand fairly often.

That said, he also doesn't sound like the type to donk out here with a marginal one pair hand like a worse A, so either he's totally bluffing or he has JT/AJ/KQ in which case there's absolutely no value in a raise.

I think it goes without saying that folding is not the best play either, so I'm settling on call, move on to the next hand, etc.

Re: Fun w/ AKs
 

I think the answer depends a lot on how quickly and confidently he called on the turn. As a default I think both raising and folding are bad.

Re: Fun w/ AKs
 

raisefold seems like awful spew to me; what is he gonna call with that we beat - a2? he'll either fold his bluff, or he'll probably just call with better two pair hands all of which beat us, not to mention the times he has the goods and we get 3towned

Re: Fun w/ AKs
 

why wouldnt he go for a river CR if he made two pair? we check an ace here behind never

and if he's tilting he's paying off with Ax always.

Re: Fun w/ AKs
 

I am sure he has J,10. Call.

Re: Fun w/ AKs
 

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I am sure he has J,10. Call.

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this doesnt make sense.

if you're sure then you should fold.

Re: Fun w/ AKs
 

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why wouldnt he go for a river CR if he made two pair? we check an ace here behind never



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A lot of people will bet out if they hit their two pair, rather than hoping for a check raise, especially if their bingo card could give the guy behind a reason to check.

Re: Fun w/ AKs
 

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why wouldnt he go for a river CR if he made two pair? we check an ace here behind never



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A lot of people will bet out if they hit their two pair, rather than hoping for a check raise, especially if their bingo card could give the guy behind a reason to check.

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why would we ever check behind on a T river

maybe in a 2/4 limit game, but am i wrong in assuming that 30/60 players are smart enough to cr this river when they hit?

Re: Fun w/ AKs
 

Thats a classic 2-pair on the river bet. Against some I can fold, others call. Raising makes no sense.

Re: Fun w/ AKs
 

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I am sure he has J,10. Call.

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this doesnt make sense.

if you're sure then you should fold.

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Fair enough. What I meant is that a raise seems like a bad move. And folding does too, because there enough times that a player who plans on calling the river will bet out hoping that you will fold.

Kit, if checked to you would you always value bet this river or doesn't the 10 give you reason to pause, given how many people like to play J,10. Afterall, there must be some reason this guy is calling every street and this seems to be the most likely card to bring in his hand.

Re: Fun w/ AKs
 

Dude - the problem is the likely hand distribution and the pre-flop hesitation his range is very wide. It could be something as bizarre as a big hand like KK which was looking to trap but chickened out and put in one bet on the river just in case you might fold, Ax which hit 2 pair on the river, Ax taking the check/call check/call bet line, or something retarded like 6T which sucked out.

I just call. I expect to win the hand as often as I expect to lose.

Re: Fun w/ AKs
 

The river card I don't like, but would never make me check the river behind given how the hand played out. The only reason to check this river behind is if you're opposed to stacking chips.

As the hand played out, I just call. It seems like a rivered two pair to me. I don't see value in a raise(unless he's pulling the old c/c,c/c, donk with a weak ace, which I don't think he's doing more than half the time he calls the raise), and he's certainly bluffing or betting a worse hand often enough to call.

Re: Fun w/ AKs
 

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why would we ever check behind on a T river

maybe in a 2/4 limit game, but am i wrong in assuming that 30/60 players are smart enough to cr this river when they hit?

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If we give him that much credit, then can we give him enough credit to know that OP won't call the river CR with one pair? If villain hit a powerhouse hand on the river (like a straight or set), he might be hoping to bet-3-bet the river, figuring that OP won't call the CR anyways with his one-pair hands and will raise with 2-pair or better.

I just think that putting villain on the overlay of betting out a weaker A here and being willing to call the c/r with it is to optimistic.

Re: Fun w/ AKs
 

I don't understand people who are thinking raise is a viable option here.

Re: Fun w/ AKs
 

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I don't understand people who are thinking raise is a viable option here.

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Need to work on your image nitboy. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

-DeathDonkey

Re: Fun w/ AKs
 

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I don't understand people who are thinking raise is a viable option here.

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Need to work on your image nitboy. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

-DeathDonkey

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Dude. It's a "tight" 50something player who didn't like his hand preflop and now he donks out on the river. You aren't good &gt; 50% of the time you get called with a raise here. Not enough Axo hands that he's pained enough calling preflop that he suddenly decides to betcall on the river.

Rob

Re: Fun w/ AKs
 

The Dude calls and loses. Most of the time. To J-T. Tight, Bellagio player donks here when you've been betting the whole way you can't really expect to see one pair from him. Then again, he's on tilt, and he thinks you're playing too many hands, so who knows.

Re: Fun w/ AKs
 

Okay, first of all, let me emphasize my opponent here. He "knows how to play tight," but he's not consistently tight. Also, he's probably on tilt right now. Also, I've been raising a ton lately. Also, he is aware of this because several times it's been raising his limp or 3betting his raise. Also, I got the vibe he didn't like his hand before the flop. All this adds up to a pretty wide range of hands here. Someone mentioned T6s. That might not be out of his range, although it certainly should be discounted vs JT.

Secondly, this guy is Asian, so he does weird stuff, and he doesn't like to fold. Does this line really look that bizarre for something like Ax? Do you guys really think this type of player isn't paying off a raise on the river?

I'm not necessarily declaring that I think raising is best here, I'd like to hear some more discussion, but I think it's getting dismissed as an option completely, and I don't know that it should.

Re: Fun w/ AKs
 

The guys I know for whom this line is standard with A-x don't call river raises with one pair. They just don't. Not ever here in L.A., much less in Vegas. They're thinking: OK, The Dude has bet the flop and turn, but he'd proably stop betting a pocket pair less than aces here on the river (because that's what I would do), so I better bet the river lest he check behind putting me on a weak ace. Oops, he's raised, I was wrong, I only have one pair, he's been betting all the way and now when I bet he raises, he must have a big hand.

I've seen check-call, check-call, bet-fold to a raise fifty times more often than check-call, check-call, call a raise with only one pair.

Re: Fun w/ AKs
 

my first instinct was raise and i could tell that was obviously what you were thinking but that AJT86 board texture is deadly and makes folding probably an even better choice than a raise. i would call only because he's tilted and capable of playing bad. A5o is definitely getting played this way a ton in bellagio. so call.

ready for the meta hand: weigh how much more will you calling and him showing Ax tilt him vs. how much you raising and him calling and showing 97h untilt him.

Re: Fun w/ AKs
 

but youre thinking of players who have some game postflop andy. the dude is describing a tilty bad player. also the dude looks like he's 15 and cocky. he gets called way more than most players. old people are so gullible.

Re: Fun w/ AKs
 

"old people are so gullible.'

Don't be daft.

Re: Fun w/ AKs
 

This guy is folding a pair very rarely in my opinion, rarely enough that we should consider both of you putting 2 bets into the pot here by far the most common result of a raise.

In other words in a vacuum you need to be ahead 50.1% of the time for you to raise. Mike has a good point about meta and it's probably 55. I can actually see this kind of persons disgusted or triumphant/vindicated reaction as the circumstances allow.

All that being said, I just don't think you're ahead quite 50% of the time. It's just not the kind of board where people are likely to show up with one pair. I first thought call and then thought raise but now think call. Also looks like I basically retyped mike's post, but whatever. I don't think fold is probably better than call so there's that.

Re: Fun w/ AKs
 

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Secondly, this guy is Asian, so he does weird stuff, and he doesn't like to fold. Does this line really look that bizarre for something like Ax? Do you guys really think this type of player isn't paying off a raise on the river?

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LOL. You guys have no idea how many BB/100 I make off this alone.

Re: Fun w/ AKs
 

Nina: I would need a specific read to raise that.

I concur.

Re: Fun w/ AKs
 

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Secondly, this guy is Asian, so he does weird stuff, and he doesn't like to fold. Does this line really look that bizarre for something like Ax? Do you guys really think this type of player isn't paying off a raise on the river?

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LOL. You guys have no idea how many BB/100 I make off this alone.

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I can't decide whether I would rather have an asian disguise or a persian disguise, but it's def close.

Re: Fun w/ AKs
 

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ready for the meta hand: weigh how much more will you calling and him showing Ax tilt him vs. how much you raising and him calling and showing 97h untilt him.


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I think pausing, thinking for a few seconds like you're pondering a fold, then shrugging and calling will get you the best tilt equity here, regardless or what he has. When he has Ax, it will be sort of like a semi-slowroll. When he has some retarded bluff, he'll get a glimmer of hope when you hesitate. When he has a better hand, he'll think you actually considered folding AK there against him, so you must have a really good read of how he plays.

Don't do any silly hollywooding or anything, but just give a slight indication that you're considering a fold. This should have the most negative effect on villains mental state overall, I think.

Re: Fun w/ AKs
 

So, in the actual hand I paused to think for a moment, then called, not sure if raising would be better. I'm still not sure, since I feel like calling is letting Ax off the hook way too easily, and I also don't want people I play with regularly to do this dumbass donk with weak made hands.

But whatever. He had J6s. Nice hand, dummy.

Re: Fun w/ AKs
 

Funny how many tilters one sees who actually play more passively when on tilt. That's probably because they're playing a greater quantity of hands but rarely have a premium holding since they're playing things like J-6.

"I also don't want people I play with regularly to do this dumbass donk with weak made hands."

I wouldn't mind it. Contrast this with how the hand would likely have been played at Commerce. You lose at least one more big bet here.

Re: Fun w/ AKs
 

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"I also don't want people I play with regularly to do this dumbass donk with weak made hands."

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Sure, I saved a ton this hand, but I'm talking more like A5 or KJ. If he donks rivers with these hands, I lose my free showdown option and I only very rarely get more value out of him (when I have a monster and he calls). I'd rather they just check-call if I can't raise in these situations.