Help me play my JJ
 

Could someone evaluate my play with an overpair here on all streets please and if I'm making mistakes tell me what I should be doing and why - or what factors I should be taking into consideration. I think playing overpairs is one of the weakest parts of my game.

6 players - Effective 50 - Hero is Lag - Villian seems like a Tag - Hero is button with J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Folded to Hero, Hero raises 2, SB raises 7, BB folds, Hero calls.

Flop (14)

7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

SB bets 9, Hero calls

Turn (32)

7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

SB checks, Hero bets 17 (this is a strange bet - I wanted to induce a possible bluff-shove from overcards (unlikely) while at the same time protecting my hand - if I just shoved I would lose out on this small possibility - I didn't give too much consideration to the two hearts on board in a reraised pot), SB calls.

River (64)

3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

SB pushes for about 20, Hero calls - Not happy at all about him pushing the river but I can't fold right? Should I be shoving the flop, shoving the turn, folding the river etc.? Thanks for comments.

Re: Help me play my JJ
 

if youre going to bet the turn, bet something meaningful please...youre not inducing a bluff you have to be honest with yourself...youre just scared to bet more. either check or bet >= 25 imo

Re: Help me play my JJ
 

How could I be scared to bet more if I'm not folding to a shove? If you're going to say bet more or check please give a good reason.

Re: Help me play my JJ
 

This is a tough spot, if you don't fold the flop you have to play for your whole stack here because 1 PSB make you pot stuck. So I would probably just get it in on the flop if you beleive you are ahead.

I am a 10nl player so probably don't know what I am talking about.

What is the players pahud stats? How often has he 3bet? Is he laggy?

I would probably check behind on the turn and see what he does on the river.

Re: Help me play my JJ
 

I was considering shoving the flop but I didn't like it because it's a WAWB situation - even if Villian doesn't give me much credit it's unlikely he'll call the overbet shove with anything I beat - maybe TT. And he'll instacall with QQ+ . Sorry I don't have the hud stats Larry - I don't use it. Yes, I know I should.

Re: Help me play my JJ
 

The flop is not a WA/WB situation. There are plenty of draws out there, this is not a board like 22T. I dont mind the flop play at all, but Im betting strong once villain checks turn to me. You could just shove turn here seeing as you have I think 34 left and a pot of 32 in the middle. I really cant see betting half my remaining stack on the turn, putting in effectively 3/4 of my stack total, planning on folding. As played, the river is a fold. Villains dont take this line usually with one pair hands.

Re: Help me play my JJ
 

Check the turn for pot control. IMO draws are generally a non-issue in a 3bet pot unless they are broadway type draws because more of a 3betting range will be pairs rather than suited cards.

As you said, it's a WA/WB situation so there's no reason to put money in on this turn when we're in position and have the option to check. I'll call a reasonable bet on a non-ace river.

Re: Help me play my JJ
 

That's true that the flop isn't a wawb Profish - I was just about to edit that. But I still don't like the shove. I wasn't planning on folding the turn - I've already said that twice. I think you might be right about the river fold.

Re: Help me play my JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
There are plenty of draws out there, this is not a board like 22T.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but what hands that are 3betting from the blinds have connected w/ these draws?

Re: Help me play my JJ
 

[ QUOTE ]
Check the turn for pot control. I'll call a reasonable bet on a non-ace river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually never consider checking behind on the turn in these situations - but it seems like it might be the best play.

Re: Help me play my JJ
 

imo once you bet the turn you should never fold the river. Villain calls the turn when he is in a shove or fold situation. Very interested to know what he has

Re: Help me play my JJ
 

More often than not, when villains check here they have whiffed overs. Unless you have a read that villain is capable of crai on turn here, why let his overs catch up? Maybe Im just dumb but I feel betting for protection is best here. And you asked what hands that 3 bet could connect with this flop? AK/AQ/AJ all with the flush draw.

Re: Help me play my JJ
 

Well, that's why I bet this turn all the time - like you said missed overcards are a large part of the average villian's range with this line. I didn't push because some villians get tilted and crai with something like AK in these situations and I wanted to give him the chance to do that - it's unlikely but has happened to me on several occasions - villians see you playing a lot of junk and snap - plus the small bet is enough to price overcards out of calling.

Checking the turn gives us a chance to catch a bluff on the river from air and save money if we're behind. I don't know which is the better argument. Maybe with the flush draw there betting is better but I tend to more or less ignore flush draws in 3-bet pots when the stacks are not too deep - maybe this is a bad idea. I'd like to know if people think that if we're going to bet the turn who likes just shoving and who likes betting small with the intention of calling a shove as I did?

Re: Help me play my JJ
 

Im not saying the flush is a large part of his range, because it probably isnt. However, if the river comes off Q/K/A and villain bets then you have to fold. I guess this really depends on how aggressive villain is too. Against a passive player I think betting or shoving turn is best. Against a really aggro player, you really dont want to get crai on the turn, as you have to fold. So against that type of player, checking to induce a bluff isnt a bad idea. But if villain seems tag here, Im not sure he is going to bluff this river very often at all, if ever to be honest. So I would rather just bet and take it down here. If he wants to continue drawing, then he can do so incorrectly, and if he has a better hand, then so be it. I guess Im also torn now between betting the turn and shoving the turn, as if you bet it gives you some stack left to fold if he shoves, but if he does have a draw, youre giving him correct odds.

Re: Help me play my JJ
 

This is really read-dependent. if you have a LAG image, and he is a good player he will 3-bet u lighter. If he is good, then I dont think he will give a LAG player a free card on the turn with AA,KK or QQ. So I would just go with it on the turn, and bet like 25 which basically puts him all in. He could have AKs here, and I think he would fold to a big bet on the turn.

I think you can fold on the river, there is not much you beat here.

Re: Help me play my JJ
 

If I call the flop, I shove that turn. It's only a bet slightly larger than pot-size, flush draws won't have the odds to draw, and I seriously can't see villain holding a single 7 or even 85 here.

Getting 4:1 odds, I make this call. Even though I puke most of the time because of my horrible turn play.