NL25 overpair vs minraise
 

I have no stats on vilain.
Did i play well ?

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

CO: $15.35
BTN: $24.10
Hero (SB): $24.25
BB: $36.35
UTG: $11.25

Pre-Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
UTG calls $0.25, CO calls $0.25, <font color="red">BTN raises to $1</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $3.50</font>, 3 folds, BTN calls $2.50

Flop: ($7.75) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $5</font>, <font color="red">BTN raises to $10</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $20.75 and is All-In</font>, BTN calls $10.60 and is All-In

Turn: ($48.95) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: ($48.95) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: $48.95 Pot ($2 Rake)

Re: NL25 overpair vs minraise
 

Standard.

Re: NL25 overpair vs minraise
 

Ok it was i think. Thx for the confirmation.

Re: NL25 overpair vs minraise
 

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Standard.

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Hope he had JJ instead of TT

Re: NL25 overpair vs minraise
 

raise more pf, bet about pot on flop. other than that little bit its all good.

Re: NL25 overpair vs minraise
 

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Standard.

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I always wonder. How many bb is an unimproved pair worth?

Is it worth exercising pot control? Considering its a reraised pot - when the money goes all in, what percentage of the time against your 'average' player are we good here?

I'm not saying this is wrong or right - but at some point I think a value has to be put on a one pair hand. Here, we've guaranteed that we win or lose 100 BB with one pair against someone we know nothing about.

Should that be standard?

Re: NL25 overpair vs minraise
 

Its standard for the reasons you already know. Villain can show up here with draws and overpairs quite often. Of course we dont know this guy specifically so we dont know what HE can show up with, but thats why we call them unknowns. We then establish what a general unknown will do, and most will show up with a range we are quite ahead of.

Re: NL25 overpair vs minraise
 

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Its standard for the reasons you already know. Villain can show up here with draws and overpairs quite often. Of course we dont know this guy specifically so we dont know what HE can show up with, but thats why we call them unknowns. We then establish what a general unknown will do, and most will show up with a range we are quite ahead of.

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Hmmm. Not sure I agree. Obviously "most unknowns" is kind of broad... but I would say there are more TAGS and PASSIVE players then maniacs/LAGs. Most players do not put in their whole stack with overcards or unimproved small-midpairs.

I agree that a hand like A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] would be in villains range but, if so, we are possibly flipping.

I'm actually undecided about this hand. But I do think enough thought isn't put into how much one pair is worth. I don't see anyone actually thinking about what an average player gets his stack in here.

I suspect the average player isn't very good. And yet, I bet the average player is more cautious then people are giving him credit for. (I have to datamine to find tables with lots of loose aggressive players - I would say your average table is more to be filled with TAGS and SLAGS and Loose passives.)

again - my point is that I don't think most players are getting in their whole stack here as weakly as people seem to indicate. Some players, sure... but I would generalize the average player as being more risk averse then we like to think. In which case always getting in an over pair for a full stack on most flops against your 'average' player is not so clear.

Re: NL25 overpair vs minraise
 

I put him on 22/55/88-QQ and combo draws

Given the dead money its an easy push against the combo draws. The remainder of his range is strongly in our favor and he is not likely to get away from the portion we beat...making it a pretty standard play. Can't see folding or calling here.

Re: NL25 overpair vs minraise
 

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Is it worth exercising pot control? Considering its a reraised pot - when the money goes all in, what percentage of the time against your 'average' player are we good here?

I'm not saying this is wrong or right - but at some point I think a value has to be put on a one pair hand. Here, we've guaranteed that we win or lose 100 BB with one pair against someone we know nothing about.

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But where are you going to fold? After the flop min-raise? I don't see how else the hand can play out.

Re: NL25 overpair vs minraise
 

Thats the point, there is no other way to play this hand. Calling is bad because there are many turn cards that kill your hand, folding is obviously very weak, so its a push. I think many unknowns see overpairs and go with them, that is definitely a safe assumption. I think SOME unknowns will see a flush draw and an over and go with it, especially since they see people on tv pushing with their draws. Im not saying villain has overs here, that would make him a complete maniac, but to say he doesnt have an overpair or a draw here very often is just false.

Re: NL25 overpair vs minraise
 

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I always wonder. How many bb is an unimproved pair worth?



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One of the reasons you reraise preflop here is to reduce the effective stack sizes and make the hand easier to play post flop. Bloating the pot preflop, and then wondering "how many BB do I want to put in this pot postflop?" in an absolute sense is not the correct way to approach hands. Post flop action should be considered relative to the current pot size and the relation of the remaining stacks to that pot. If we're still deep postflop, we want to consider pot control. Here we are not deep. Once we flop an overpair, it's less than 2 pot sized bets to get it all in, so we should feel fairly comfortable putting all our money in the middle.

Re: NL25 overpair vs minraise
 

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raise more pf, bet about pot on flop. other than that little bit its all good.

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I would bet more pf, but why bet pot on flop? I would bet about my stardand cbet which is about 75~ of the pot.

After I 3bet pf, on this flop, I am b3bai 100% of the times.

Sorry I only read the other responses later. I think this is pretty standard shove, and I agree with Profish.

Re: NL25 overpair vs minraise
 

I would make a larger bet on the flop, maybe $10. If he calls I would have to consider folding, fearing AA. I don't understand why we discount AA or even KK here.

Re: NL25 overpair vs minraise
 

The reason those are so discounted is because most unknowns will re raise with AA/KK.