NL25 monsterdraw ip now what?
 

I need some advice here, thank you very much in advance!

<u>Question:</u> what next?

<u>Reads:</u> UTG+1 is a bad and juicy player. CO is a tight abc multitabler. He probably has some kind of more or less legit preflop hand even if he noticed that UTG+1 plays bad, or maybe better of course. BB is unknown.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) Poker Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($5.80)
UTG ($26.95)
UTG+1 ($46.95)
MP1 ($52.50)
MP2 ($20.65)
CO ($22.25)
Hero ($27.80)
SB ($30.75)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $1</font>, Hero calls $1, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls $0.75, UTG+1 calls $0.75.

<font color="blue"> I call because:
-&gt; I have position
-&gt; UTG+1 will pay if I hit
-&gt; CO can be pushed off often should UTG+1 fold </font>

Flop: ($4.10) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets $1</font>, Hero ???

Re: NL25 monsterdraw ip now what?
 

I'd raise this up to $4.50-$5. You might just take it down with that weak bet from CO. If not, you most likely have 15 clean outs here. Another plus is if you hit a blank on the turn, CO is going to check almost always after your flop raise giving you the option of taking a free card.

Re: NL25 monsterdraw ip now what?
 

Raise to $5 and call push.

Although calling is more likely to keep UTG+1 in the hand, the correct play is to raise and try to get it in with 2 cards to come.

As steeler mentioned, if you get called, you can take a free card on the turn.

Re: NL25 monsterdraw ip now what?
 

CO shows a really strange betting pattern here. If he really is an ABC player betting 1/4 of the pot seems a little weak as a value bet. Maybe he is just trying to get some information on other people's holdings, but this seems like he is trying to get everyone to call. Wouldn't surprise me if he held 2 diamonds two. Giving his preflop raise AJ seems likely, but KQ of a different street suit would also make sense.

I would raise here to around 4. Let's hope UTG+1 calls. Be caoutious if CO calls too. In a three way pot UTG+1 might give him the odds to call with a marginal hand, but if he has AJ [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], it is easy for you to lose your stack on the turn or river...

Re: NL25 monsterdraw ip now what?
 

I'm not sure about calling a push. Your overcard outs likely aren't good then anymore and even the diamond outs might be "tainted" by AJ [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Re: NL25 monsterdraw ip now what?
 

I think raising the flop is fine, but I like a turn bluff better than a flop bluff. A lot of the time I think you want to smooth call here to let the blind and UTG+1 players in. You have a very strong draw and you have the chance to create bigger multiway pot. If you drag another player along, the pot is better sized for a bigger turn bluff if you don't happen to catch one of your cards.

If the BB happens to shove, I think you're happy enough to flip coins with him. If the BB shoves and the CO were to over shove, then I would curse the poker gods and let it go.

Re: NL25 monsterdraw ip now what?
 

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If he really is an ABC player betting 1/4 of the pot seems a little weak as a value bet. Maybe he is just trying to get some information on other people's holdings, but this seems like he is trying to get everyone to call.

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I am not so sure at this stage we can say he is trying to get every1 to call. I remember a number of ABC multitablers at nl25 who made v.small c-bets. It surprised me at first, but then i realised some of these people were on 12 tables at a time, making these micro bets consistently when they were weak... i had them marked in my notes and usually raised them out of the hand successfully.
thats may not be the case here, but its certainly a weak tendency i have identified in certain players.

Re: NL25 monsterdraw ip now what?
 

I'm reraises flop everytime with this hand.

Re: NL25 monsterdraw ip now what?
 

Any particular reasoning behind that or just because it's a strong draw? Do you just want to end the hand early because it's multiway?

Here's my thinking. Looking at the hand, the primary villain is weak here most of the time. If we don't take it away now, we can still take it away on the turn. If he's weak almost any card that catches him up a bit makes our hand stronger. No? The only hand we're worried about is if he's blocking with AdXd. If he has that hand, I doubt we're bumping him off it with our raise. Lots of good things happen for us if he makes a worse draw than ours or catches an A. I don't think we give much up when we wait for the turn.

Re: NL25 monsterdraw ip now what?
 

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I'm reraises flop everytime with this hand.

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The reason I do is because he isn't going to put you on the FD if you hit it and a SD is even more disguised. You probably have the best hand here and he will also likely check to you on the turn regardless of his hand. He he re-raises the flop just shove.

Re: NL25 monsterdraw ip now what?
 

I think PF could go both ways, I sure don't mind a reraise there, but I see how keeping the poor player in it is nice as well. It can play well both ways.

The flop is definitely a raise. If we were quite a bit deeper, I could see a call. I'm always surprised what the bad players will call with in +1's position anyway. Of course, call a push and take the free card if you get to the turn.

Re: NL25 monsterdraw ip now what?
 

I dont hate a raise at all, although I prefer a call here.

- You have position on the turn
- You have at least one weak player in the hand
- Ax diamonds is possible but we cant always play scared, worse flushes will pay just as often.
- Hitting the straight may make someone 2-pair
- The pot is getting big enough that we can probably get the stacks in on the river anyway.
- That flop will have hit a lot of hands 4-way so we may not have the fold equity we require.

Anyone agree/disagree??

Re: NL25 monsterdraw ip now what?
 

I call to let your target continue to play the hand. If it does end up HU, you can probably get CO to fold just as easily on the turn only then you will have more information. I think your implied odds from the juicy player dictate your action.

Re: NL25 monsterdraw ip now what?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I dont hate a raise at all, although I prefer a call here.

- You have position on the turn
- You have at least one weak player in the hand
- Ax diamonds is possible but we cant always play scared, worse flushes will pay just as often.
- Hitting the straight may make someone 2-pair
- The pot is getting big enough that we can probably get the stacks in on the river anyway.
- That flop will have hit a lot of hands 4-way so we may not have the fold equity we require.

Anyone agree/disagree??

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The biggest reason I don't like it is you can get priced out on the turn. We have mad equity now, let's get some money in. This also allows us to check the turn (if we get there) when our equity drops a lot.

Re: NL25 monsterdraw ip now what?
 

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[ QUOTE ]
I dont hate a raise at all, although I prefer a call here.

- You have position on the turn
- You have at least one weak player in the hand
- Ax diamonds is possible but we cant always play scared, worse flushes will pay just as often.
- Hitting the straight may make someone 2-pair
- The pot is getting big enough that we can probably get the stacks in on the river anyway.
- That flop will have hit a lot of hands 4-way so we may not have the fold equity we require.

Anyone agree/disagree??

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The biggest reason I don't like it is you can get priced out on the turn.

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By the CO?

Re: NL25 monsterdraw ip now what?
 

I raise to say 3.5, but not really to end the hand quickly but to get some money in the pot. With hands like that I don't care too much if this is hand is MW as we have 8 outs to the nuts and about 9 to the 2nd nuts. If someone raises me here I instapush over the top...

Re: NL25 monsterdraw ip now what?
 

I don't think the call is particularly a bad play, but i don't think it's the best. I think it's weaker. I like trying to get it in here with 2 to come, especially with the potential dead money added to pot. I also don't mind taking down the pot right here with a reraise. You're in position with a monster hand, build the pot asap. Also, you may not get paid off as easily if you call and hit your flush draw. The reraise disquises your hand very very nicely.

Re: NL25 monsterdraw ip now what?
 

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[ QUOTE ]
I dont hate a raise at all, although I prefer a call here.

- You have position on the turn
- You have at least one weak player in the hand
- Ax diamonds is possible but we cant always play scared, worse flushes will pay just as often.
- Hitting the straight may make someone 2-pair
- The pot is getting big enough that we can probably get the stacks in on the river anyway.
- That flop will have hit a lot of hands 4-way so we may not have the fold equity we require.

Anyone agree/disagree??

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The biggest reason I don't like it is you can get priced out on the turn. We have mad equity now, let's get some money in. This also allows us to check the turn (if we get there) when our equity drops a lot.

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Yeah, by calling you're facing a very good chance of getting priced out on turn. While a reraise is gonna give you that free card more than likely if you miss.

Re: NL25 monsterdraw ip now what?
 

If we raise and are reraise then what is CO's range?

Re: NL25 monsterdraw ip now what?
 

Sets and overpairs, but even against sets we're only a 40 to 60 dog so with the dead money in the pot it's certainly worth the try. Against KK and QQ we are favs, against AA its 50 50...

Re: NL25 monsterdraw ip now what?
 

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Sets and overpairs, but even against sets we're only a 40 to 60 dog so with the dead money in the pot it's certainly worth the try. Against KK and QQ we are favs, against AA its 50 50...

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Agree, but I would discount overpairs pretty heavily.

My point is that if he 3-bets here we are behind his range and thus have very little(or absolutely zero) fold equity to go with our pot equity. Globally, we end up getting it AI with MAYBE 50% equity. I don't think getting it AI is the best plan here. I am not saying that it is -EV, it probably is +EV. However, you have a good target in the hand. Go after the easy money.

If the stacks weren't as deep, or were much deeper I might just agree that a raise is ABSOLUTELY the best play.

Re: NL25 monsterdraw ip now what?
 

raise, call shove

hitting kills action, even against idiots + getting priced out of draws sucks.

Re: NL25 monsterdraw ip now what?
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Sets and overpairs, but even against sets we're only a 40 to 60 dog so with the dead money in the pot it's certainly worth the try. Against KK and QQ we are favs, against AA its 50 50...

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree, but I would discount overpairs pretty heavily.

My point is that if he 3-bets here we are behind his range and thus have very little(or absolutely zero) fold equity to go with our pot equity. Globally, we end up getting it AI with MAYBE 50% equity. I don't think getting it AI is the best plan here. I am not saying that it is -EV, it probably is +EV. However, you have a good target in the hand. Go after the easy money.

If the stacks weren't as deep, or were much deeper I might just agree that a raise is ABSOLUTELY the best play.

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threads:

you have an spr in the 5.x area. Also, getting all in with 50% here is great. I also think you underestimate the poor player's ability to call a raise here. As well, we haven't talked about raise size, we don't have to blast the flop either. Why are you discounting big pps here?

Re: NL25 monsterdraw ip now what?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sets and overpairs, but even against sets we're only a 40 to 60 dog so with the dead money in the pot it's certainly worth the try. Against KK and QQ we are favs, against AA its 50 50...

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree, but I would discount overpairs pretty heavily.

My point is that if he 3-bets here we are behind his range and thus have very little(or absolutely zero) fold equity to go with our pot equity. Globally, we end up getting it AI with MAYBE 50% equity. I don't think getting it AI is the best plan here. I am not saying that it is -EV, it probably is +EV. However, you have a good target in the hand. Go after the easy money.

If the stacks weren't as deep, or were much deeper I might just agree that a raise is ABSOLUTELY the best play.

[/ QUOTE ]

threads:

you have an spr in the 5.x area. Also, getting all in with 50% here is great. I also think you underestimate the poor player's ability to call a raise here. As well, we haven't talked about raise size, we don't have to blast the flop either. Why are you discounting big pps here?

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I'm discounting PP's if we don't push and the guy pushes. I don't think he is playing this way with PP's(small bet and then push).

I should probably clarify that I think pushing is better than raising any other amount. The idea is to have some fold equity on our side if we are going to raise. We have to make 4 players fold. If we raise to like 6 and get pushed on then that just sucks. You are likely putting your money in with the worse of it at that point.

A lot of times pushing is the play in these spots, but I don't know that it is best here given that your target will come along and get stacks a really high percentage of the time that you hit your draw AND the CO will often check the turn(or bet an amount that you will be able to call).

Since my raise would be a push I wouldn't expect the poor player here too call that much. I would rather take the implied odds and get his stack when I have a hand then take a 50/50 shot with him.

Re: NL25 monsterdraw ip now what?
 

I think raising here is a lot stronger play in villain's eyes than pushing is.

Also, I'm not concerned about how much FE I have when my PE is so high.

I like pushing a lot more oop since we then have an awekward turn situation many times.

If we had a specific read on EP villain like he loves to c/r or whatever, I would see a call making more sense.

I missed that BB was in the hand. We're against 3 players not 4. I was thinking we are against 2 villains....I do agree that the presence of another player does make calling a bit more attractive. Another nice think is that an Ace gives us a straight but a donk make catch tp and marry it. The BB does help your case. However, the raise may look a bit more weak now the PFrer, since it looks like we're getting folks out, causing him to push with a wider range.

Long story short tho, I WANT ALL IN ON THE FLOP WITH AS MANY AS I CAN. However, we get that done...

Re: NL25 monsterdraw ip now what?
 

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I think raising here is a lot stronger play in villain's eyes than pushing is.

Also, I'm not concerned about how much FE I have when my PE is so high.

I like pushing a lot more oop since we then have an awekward turn situation many times.

If we had a specific read on EP villain like he loves to c/r or whatever, I would see a call making more sense.

I missed that BB was in the hand. We're against 3 players not 4. I was thinking we are against 2 villains....I do agree that the presence of another player does make calling a bit more attractive. Another nice think is that an Ace gives us a straight but a donk make catch tp and marry it. The BB does help your case. However, the raise may look a bit more weak now the PFrer, since it looks like we're getting folks out, causing him to push with a wider range.

Long story short tho, I WANT ALL IN ON THE FLOP WITH AS MANY AS I CAN. However, we get that done...

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Fair enough. I am not saying that a call is a slam dunk or anything, in case I am coming off like that. It is probably a pretty close and hence why we are debating it. I tend to be a little more 'meh' about pushing AI with draws on flops than others, so this may just be a personally preference coming through. In this spot I still like a call better but you really could probably flip a coin or look to metagame.

Re: NL25 monsterdraw ip now what?
 

I think you have to push this on the flop, 1st you have fold equity and 2nd you don't want to get priced out of your draw on the turn evn if it means loosing a few people who would have called the flop

Re: NL25 monsterdraw ip now what?
 

I almost never see a player call a flop raise oop and then donk the turn.

Re: NL25 monsterdraw ip now what?
 

One of the reasons I like a call moderately more than a raise here is that A's and 9's are such good cards for us. This is one of those hands where we can end up with everybody all in when we hit a card that makes us the nuts. I'm not saying that is going to happen every time, but there are a lot of lesser draws that and 1 pair hands that all of the sudden find themselves all-in or mostly all-in. For me that is worth a little patience.

If we had 8d9d or Qd9d, I think raising would be clearly better.

Re: NL25 monsterdraw ip now what?
 

actionstan:

I think those are good points too.

Re: NL25 monsterdraw ip now what?
 

As a rule I'd stick in a raise here, prolly up to $5 or so. You have massive equity against any hand and UTG+1, being bad, could very well come along for the ride with any number of hands. Also raising means you are more likely to get paid if your hand hits imo.