25nl QQ sanity check.
 

Villan is relative unknown to me running at 15/6/1 over only 25ish hands.

So apart from reload here, any advice.

Can I safely say villan is holding JJ+ after his turn 3bet.

Due to small pf3bet I'm now thinking KK,AA are most likely.

Is anyone folding to 4bet or am I pot committed / happy to get it all in here?

Party Poker, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

UTG: $20.89
Hero (MP): $18.51
CO: $21.15
BTN: $45.90
SB: $24.94
BB: $34.09

Pre-Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (MP)
UTG folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $1</font>, 2 folds, <font color="red">SB raises to $1.75</font>, BB folds, Hero calls $0.75

Flop: ($3.75) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $2</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $8</font>, <font color="red">SB raises to $23.19 and is All-In</font>, Hero poos his pants a little.

Note: I only have around 8 left behind at this stage.

Re: 25nl QQ sanity check.
 

Call and reload. You're good here at least half the time.

Re: 25nl QQ sanity check.
 

Fold, villain is a nit.
He raises only 6% of the hands preflop, therefore he 3bets even less. He got AA/KK here imo, he shows a lot of strenght, which he barely does with an AF of 1.

Re: 25nl QQ sanity check.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fold, villain is a nit.
He raises only 6% of the hands preflop, therefore he 3bets even less. He got AA/KK here imo, he shows a lot of strenght, which he barely does with an AF of 1.

[/ QUOTE ]

AF/pfr cannot be accurately determined from a sample of this many hands.

Is this your line against unknown?

Re: 25nl QQ sanity check.
 

If you don't want to get it in here, don't raise flop. Not calling here means you turned your QQ into a bluff.
Which is why you need to flatcall this flop if you put your opponent on JJ+, AK. This loses less from better, but wins more from worse.

I call here, albeit unhappily. I expect to see JJ or TT every once in a while but KK or AA with a higher frequency.

EDIT: Missed samplesize. I'm calling happily, then.

Re: 25nl QQ sanity check.
 

I've resigned myself to the fact that most pf min-3bets represent KK/AA (without reads).

I thought he might be doing this with a slightly wider range from the blinds hence the flop action. I felt like a twit but against a range of JJ+ I have around 33% equity (i.e. more than enough equity to call. However, against KK,AA, I have only 10%.

Am I seeing monsters here?

Re: 25nl QQ sanity check.
 

oh you are right the sample size is extremely small.
I still fold QQ here.
But i'd 4bet QQ preflop and fold to a 5bet (depending on stack sizes).

As played we should probably fold, he got AA/KK.

Re: 25nl QQ sanity check.
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't want to get it in here, don't raise flop. Not calling here means you turned your QQ into a bluff.
Which is why you need to flatcall this flop if you put your opponent on JJ+, AK. This loses less from better, but wins more from worse.

I call here, albeit unhappily. I expect to see JJ or TT every once in a while but KK or AA with a higher frequency.

EDIT: Missed samplesize. I'm calling happily, then.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do we turn our hand in a bluff by folding here?
I think we raise flop for value (vs. 88-JJ), but have to fold now, since he shows more strength than 88-JJ would do.

Re: 25nl QQ sanity check.
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't want to get it in here, don't raise flop. Not calling here means you turned your QQ into a bluff.
Which is why you need to flatcall this flop if you put your opponent on JJ+, AK. This loses less from better, but wins more from worse.

I call here, albeit unhappily. I expect to see JJ or TT every once in a while but KK or AA with a higher frequency.

EDIT: Missed samplesize. I'm calling happily, then.

[/ QUOTE ]

In which case you are set mining and are not likely to get value here. If you call this you have difficult decisions to come as you are going to have to put alot more in the pot if you want to see a showdown.

Folding has to be a better line than calling here imo.

A huge part of this villan's range is AK which I am wanting to push him off on this flop.

Re: 25nl QQ sanity check.
 

[ QUOTE ]
oh you are right the sample size is extremely small.
I still fold QQ here.
But i'd 4bet QQ preflop and fold to a 5bet (depending on stack sizes).

[/ QUOTE ]
Why are you turning QQ into a bluff preflop? I really hate the 4-bet/fold line.

[ QUOTE ]
As played we should probably fold, he got AA/KK.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think his range is that narrow, and I call. I've seen people do this with 78s at PS 25NL, where they get tired of LP raises and then decide that top pair is the nuts on the flop. This isn't going to happen much, but ranges are wider than you may think.

Re: 25nl QQ sanity check.
 

yyou need to 4bet his min 3bet. I hate the flat call. You have great equity and need to put more in now.

Make it about 6. as for folding to a shove. you dont have enough behind to do that. So all in preflop.

on the flop you are just making up for what you didn't do preflop, except now, he gets to fold AK...see the problem?

Re: 25nl QQ sanity check.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you don't want to get it in here, don't raise flop. Not calling here means you turned your QQ into a bluff.
Which is why you need to flatcall this flop if you put your opponent on JJ+, AK. This loses less from better, but wins more from worse.

I call here, albeit unhappily. I expect to see JJ or TT every once in a while but KK or AA with a higher frequency.

EDIT: Missed samplesize. I'm calling happily, then.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do we turn our hand in a bluff by folding here?
I think we raise flop for value (vs. 88-JJ), but have to fold now, since he shows more strength than 88-JJ would do.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're right but villan may push flop with JJ as any overpair (88+) is likely to bump this flop.

Re: 25nl QQ sanity check.
 

[quote="Schiester"]
Why do we turn our hand in a bluff by folding here?
I think we raise flop for value (vs. 88-JJ), but have to fold now, since he shows more strength than 88-JJ would do.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think that's what you're doing. 88-JJ are often going to find folds from total nits here, and you fold because you think he's a total nit. So effectively you were raising to find out if he was a nit or not, ie. betting for info. You could just as well be raising 22 here with the same effect.

Which is why I think flatcalling and then calling down is a better line. You don't show any strength, which will often induce villain to start betting with 88+ and AK instead of QQ+ if you raise him. Yes, it's a high variance line. But I'm pretty sure it's the max value line here.

I don't see what 'set mining' has to do with this, by the way. I don't see a Q on board here.

Re: 25nl QQ sanity check.
 

[ QUOTE ]
yyou need to 4bet his min 3bet. I hate the flat call. You have great equity and need to put more in now.

Make it about 6. as for folding to a shove. you dont have enough behind to do that. So all in preflop.

on the flop you are just making up for what you didn't do preflop, except now, he gets to fold AK...see the problem?

[/ QUOTE ]

I hear you. Get it in while I have equity over a range. I'm more than happy to adjust my play to suit this against normal sized pf3bets. I just don't know if you see AK,JJ,QQ getting min3bet pf as often as AA,KK?

Re: 25nl QQ sanity check.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
oh you are right the sample size is extremely small.
I still fold QQ here.
But i'd 4bet QQ preflop and fold to a 5bet (depending on stack sizes).

[/ QUOTE ]
Why are you turning QQ into a bluff preflop? I really hate the 4-bet/fold line.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do we turn QQ in a bluff?
I think TT,JJ,AK,AQs will still call and KK+ will raise, therefore we fold to a 5bet (full stacked).
Since we only got ~75BBs we have to call.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As played we should probably fold, he got AA/KK.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think his range is that narrow, and I call. I've seen people do this with 78s at PS 25NL, where they get tired of LP raises and then decide that top pair is the nuts on the flop. This isn't going to happen much, but ranges are wider than you may think.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]
You've seen people doing that, i have, too.
But villain is not a retard, we see that even with this small sample size. A guy who does that with 78s is sth like 40/10 after 25 hands.
I fold here.

Re: 25nl QQ sanity check.
 

[ QUOTE ]

I hear you. Get it in while I have equity over a range. I'm more than happy to adjust my play to suit this against normal sized pf3bets. I just don't know if you see AK,JJ,QQ getting min3bet pf as often as AA,KK?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think I'm going to min3betting you lots if I'm ever up against you. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Min 3-bets, as most minbets, are often one of two things:
- Monsters that want more value but don't want to lose people
- Bluffs/marginal hands that don't want to lose too much money.

Re: 25nl QQ sanity check.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just don't know if you see AK,JJ,QQ getting min3bet pf as often as AA,KK?

[/ QUOTE ]


this is a bad state of mind to have. cant generalize villians too much.

Re: 25nl QQ sanity check.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[quote="Schiester"]
Why do we turn our hand in a bluff by folding here?
I think we raise flop for value (vs. 88-JJ), but have to fold now, since he shows more strength than 88-JJ would do.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think that's what you're doing. 88-JJ are often going to find folds from total nits here, and you fold because you think he's a total nit. So effectively you were raising to find out if he was a nit or not, ie. betting for info. You could just as well be raising 22 here with the same effect.

Which is why I think flatcalling and then calling down is a better line. You don't show any strength, which will often induce villain to start betting with 88+ and AK instead of QQ+ if you raise him. Yes, it's a high variance line. But I'm pretty sure it's the max value line here.

I don't see what 'set mining' has to do with this, by the way. I don't see a Q on board here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't fold.

If you're willing to spend $2 to see a turn, you have around 5% chance of hitting your out which you can't get implied odds to do considering stack sizes.

Calling is effectively set mining as you are assuming you're behind here (i.e. your hanging out for a Q). Lets say board comes 9 then 2 and villan shoves. Do you then call?

If you don't then you're assuming you were behind from the get-go. If an ace or a king hits then you've let AK get there.

Re: 25nl QQ sanity check.
 

[ QUOTE ]

Why do we turn QQ in a bluff?
I think TT,JJ,AK,AQs will still call and KK+ will raise, therefore we fold to a 5bet (full stacked).
Since we only got ~75BBs we have to call.

[/ QUOTE ]
Here's why I hate that line:
- People do 5-bet with AQ+, TT+, perhaps because people like you take 4-bet/fold lines with QQ.
- Nits that don't, generally fold TT,JJ and AK to 4-bets meaning you didn't need to 4-bet in the first place.

If you can't fold to a 5-bet happily, or call a 5-bet happily then don't 4-bet.

Now, a good reason to 4-bet is that you otherwise only 4-bet KK+, which sucks. But 4-betting to fold to a 5-bet feels like raising for info.

[ QUOTE ]

You've seen people doing that, i have, too.
But villain is not a retard, we see that even with this small sample size.

[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree. We know nothing about villain's postflop play here, and only have a marginal read that he's somewhat nitty preflop. I've seen villains with better stats do tons of dumber things than jam TT vs someone who wants to fold QQ.

Re: 25nl QQ sanity check.
 

[ QUOTE ]

I didn't fold.

If you're willing to spend $2 to see a turn, you have around 5% chance of hitting your out which you can't get implied odds to do considering stack sizes.

Calling is effectively set mining as you are assuming you're behind here (i.e. your hanging out for a Q). Lets say board comes 9 then 2 and villan shoves. Do you then call?

If you don't then you're assuming you were behind from the get-go. If an ace or a king hits then you've let AK get there.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not calling here to hit my miracle out on the turn or river. I'm calling here because I think that gets more value vs. villain's entire range.
Simply put, raising to fold means you're bluffing and not getting value from very many hands. Raising to call means that villain gets a good chance to fold all the hands that you beat (including AK).
However, calling him down all the way (maybe shut down if an A falls and he doesn't slow down) gets value from his entire range, including AK.

Re: 25nl QQ sanity check.
 

I've been thinking about this quite alot lately and I'd like to hear others thoughts on the issue.

At 25/10nl where I reside. I don't think your standard player pisses around too much pf with 3betting. Obviously this is a generalisation but across the board, most of the time people seem to do this with more or less JJ+,AK. However, due to the skill level (in general) of 25/10nl players I think this range is skewed more in favor of 3bet=AA,KK,QQ&gt;JJ,AK and lately I've been seeing minbets where at SD you I see AA&gt;KK&gt;&gt;&gt;(AQ etc from blinds)&gt;&gt;QQ,JJ.

People seem to think they are better off keeping you in a hand with super SUPER premium hands where as they just try to take the pot with super premium yet vlunerable hands like QQ,JJ which get raised up higher.

This is why I find pfmin3bets a little scary. My gut feeling was to fold flop here without reads which would have been correct in this isolated situation as it turned out.

Please tell me if you think this is a load of [censored]. Its just something I've noticed. Should I have followed my instinct after this flop?