What to do in late position with lots of limpers?
 

Let's say I'm in late position (the button or cut-off) holding something good like 99 or AJs. There's 4 limpers in behind me. Being a generally loose low limit table with no specific reads on people, what should my play generally be? Raise to put more money in the pot with a good hand or just limp and try and hit a good hand (and check/fold if I miss the flop since there are probably going to be 5/6 people in the hand)? Also, is this a stupid question?

Re: What to do in late position with lots of limpers?
 

I'd still raise and then use my position postflop to determine what to do next. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I think you have equity against that many limpers.

Re: What to do in late position with lots of limpers?
 

99 or AJs will have a decent equity edge over the trash these folks limp in with. Limit is about pushing small equity edges over thousands of hands, and raising with good hands preflop, especially in position, should be mandatory. Dont be afraid to push your money in the table with good hands, positional advantage, and weak players holding trash.

Raising here will most likely buy you the button and hopefully clear out the small blind. With 99, remember you dont have to c-bet every flop. Personal experience will allow you to gauge the texture of flops in accordance with your limpers to see how you want to continue after your PF raise. AJs is a great hand as well because it will hit the flop pretty frequently, sometimes pair turning into flush or flush draw turning into a winning pair.

Re: What to do in late position with lots of limpers?
 

Generally, raise for value. Then let the flop texture and the action tell you what to do. I don't automatically c-bet every time here with AK-AQ (or whatever) because I would rather not show down UI and lose to someone with J-3 who hit bottom pair and stayed in the whole time. Obviously the number of people still in the hand shapes how likely a c-bet is to take down the pot. But sometimes I will c-bet; especially when I have some sort of draw to go along with the OCs. I wouldn't be able to say I have any sort of rule.

If I miss the flop and I'm bet into, it becomes a pot odds issue. If I had 99 and 2 OCs are on the flop and there's a bet and a few calls, I'm letting it go. I'm likely looking at 2 outs. But in cases where I have 2 OCs, I'm more likely to raise here if I want to stay in the hand to make everyone else pay 2 bets. If the SB leads out and everyone calls, I count my outs and peel for one more card if I've got the odds. If I haven't improved on the turn I'm usually done.

All I'm saying is that when I whiff on the flop I'm not automatically checking/folding and I'm not automatically c-betting.

I don't think this is a stupid question. I'm really trying to improve my play in this area. Among many.

Re: What to do in late position with lots of limpers?
 

I think it's something like this:

Folding AJs < Folding 99 < Limping AJs < Limping 99 < Raising 99 < Raising AJs

Re: What to do in late position with lots of limpers?
 

4 limpers behind me I raise 77+, A8o+ Axs+, K10o+ K9s+, Q10s+, QJo+, J10+, 109s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s. In CO I would limp any offsuited connectors and on the button I would add 55+ to raise, call Axo, 22-44 ,and any offsuited connectors and 1 gappers.

Re: What to do in late position with lots of limpers?
 

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I think it's something like this:

Folding AJs < Folding 99 < Limping AJs < Limping 99 < Raising 99 < Raising AJs

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I'm coming out of nowhere to voice my opinion that folding 99 with lots of limpers sounds like the worst idea of the bunch, and thus, should be leftmost. Many limpers + set = good. I learned that in math class today.

Re: What to do in late position with lots of limpers?
 

Alright thanks guys. I really need to step up my game and didn't realize it was such an easy decision to raise.

Re: What to do in late position with lots of limpers?
 

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I raise 77+, A8o+ Axs+, K10o+ K9s+, Q10s+, QJo+, J10+, 109s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s. In CO I would limp any offsuited connectors and on the button I would add 55+ to raise, call Axo, 22-44 ,and any offsuited connectors and 1 gappers.

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This is an elaborate joke I'm unable to comprehend right?

Re: What to do in late position with lots of limpers?
 

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I raise 77+, A8o+ Axs+, K10o+ K9s+, Q10s+, QJo+, J10+, 109s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s. In CO I would limp any offsuited connectors and on the button I would add 55+ to raise, call Axo, 22-44 ,and any offsuited connectors and 1 gappers.

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This is an elaborate joke I'm unable to comprehend right?

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It's a little loose, but not by much. I might take out the unsuited Aces and limp with the unsuited connectors, but I'm raising with most of these hands under these conditions. Just remember, you need to be good postflop for these raising hands to pay off.

Red Sox are awesome.

Re: What to do in late position with lots of limpers?
 

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I raise 77+, A8o+ Axs+, K10o+ K9s+, Q10s+, QJo+, J10+, 109s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s. In CO I would limp any offsuited connectors and on the button I would add 55+ to raise, call Axo, 22-44 ,and any offsuited connectors and 1 gappers.

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This is an elaborate joke I'm unable to comprehend right?

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well what you need to learn is that Smurf is our resident lag and he does definitely add value to the micros because he isnt your standard TAG. He also doesnt multitable much, he really does work on his reads, he uses his reads, he loves metagame and he loves to bully the tighties. That being said.....this is still a crazy raising range for this spot and you better play well postflop cos ur pushing the EV envelope. Also I really dont like raising hands unsuited hands like A8o and K10o in this spot.

Re: What to do in late position with lots of limpers?
 

I would definitely raise both in this spot

Re: What to do in late position with lots of limpers?
 

okie doke, that explains a lot. Raisy daisy A8o with 4 limpers already in seemed a bit...ahem...unorthodox to me as a general advice.

Re: What to do in late position with lots of limpers?
 

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I raise 77+, A8o+ Axs+, K10o+ K9s+, Q10s+, QJo+, J10+, 109s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s. In CO I would limp any offsuited connectors and on the button I would add 55+ to raise, call Axo, 22-44 ,and any offsuited connectors and 1 gappers.

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This is an elaborate joke I'm unable to comprehend right?

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Take out KTo, QTo, QJo, A8o, A9o and it's completely fine (not that I'd raise a lot of them, but I don't think there's anything wrong with doing so).

Re: What to do in late position with lots of limpers?
 

this thread is pretty lolworthy.

smurph's range here (as are many posts that he makes) is spewy and bad.

those defending such reasoning -- for various nebulous reasons -- lol to you all as well.

let's call a spade a spade here.

Re: What to do in late position with lots of limpers?
 

not a stupid question at all.

Re: What to do in late position with lots of limpers?
 

BBB I didn't realize you were such a JA. Good to know.

Next time you rank my posts as spew and bad I would appreciate some constructive criticism like everyone else does. Until then, go peel the bark off of someone's else's tree.

If you can't play those hands against 4 limpers for a raise that doesn't by definition mean its spew and bad unless of course you can prove it.

In all my posts I always accepted criticism at its base value even when it was personal, but I see no merit in your comments against my posts lately so I am not sure what fostered it.

Perhaps you can tell me at some time in a PM why I am such and idiot to help me or you can ignore me in the future.

I think I have done my best to add some content to this particular forum by being unafraid to make ridiculous statements.

To think that I am unaware of this is extremely shortsighted. I do take offense to the comment of calling a spade a spade though, although many people claim it's not a racist comment because its origin goes back to Ancient Greece doesn't negate the fact that since the 1600's its been used in a derogatory way.

Re: What to do in late position with lots of limpers?
 

I also don't get the criticism on Smurphs range (and posts for that matter).
I'll admit, it's a loose raising range and I disagree with a lot of the cards in his range (especially the offsuit ones and small suited connectors), but the whole concept of LP is that you have an advantage over your opponents, and any decent hand has good EV against the limpers' ranges, so if you should play looser, why can't you RAISE looser in LP?

You have position, and if you're the CO you can buy the button. And you have the initiative: the whole table will most likely check to you after the flop.

You have the advantage preflop, punish the limpers!

Personally I'd raise 77+, A8s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+ and KQo from both the button and the CO (especially if raising might buy me the button).
And if there's even more limpers I'd raise with some more suited cards (Axs for instance) and pocket pairs.

At a table this loose, you can benefit a great deal from your preflop EV...

Re: What to do in late position with lots of limpers?
 

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Let's say I'm in late position (the button or cut-off) holding something good like 99 or AJs. There's 4 limpers in behind me. Being a generally loose low limit table with no specific reads on people, what should my play generally be? Raise to put more money in the pot with a good hand or just limp and try and hit a good hand (and check/fold if I miss the flop since there are probably going to be 5/6 people in the hand)? Also, is this a stupid question?

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Not a stupid question imo, but you should raise with both of these hands and more probably with that many limpers, probably worth raising 66+ and ATs KJs+ because you should have a decent equity edge preflop against that many players i.e more than 20% 5 handed more than 16.7% 6 handed.

With the AJs you can win some decent pots with just an Axx flop and sometimes you will get straight or flush draws as well.

With that many players you will win most of the money with 66-JJ when you flop a set but you should still raise because people will pay you off royally when you do hit, plus you will win sometimes when you don't improve as well.

Regards Mack

Re: What to do in late position with lots of limpers?
 

Great question, floyd. Been having some problems with this kinda scenario too.

Re: What to do in late position with lots of limpers?
 

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4 limpers behind me I raise 77+, A8o+ Axs+, K10o+ K9s+, Q10s+, QJo+, J10+, 109s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s. In CO I would limp any offsuited connectors and on the button I would add 55+ to raise, call Axo, 22-44 ,and any offsuited connectors and 1 gappers.

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I don't think you have an equity edge with the smaller suited connceters or the offsuit small broadway cards. I guess the original post was so easy we needed to challenge ourselves with additional possibilities. There certainly may be a benefit to the raise if the table is highly likely to check to your preflop raise and give you the option of a free card.

Re: What to do in late position with lots of limpers?
 

hi smurph, not calling you a ja at all, nor is the spade comment meant as a racial one, as i think you already realize.

i just feel that your range is very over-wide and will result in lots of losing of monies if one tries to follow it. i don't think a lot of the hands you listed are worth a raise after several limpers. i guess either pokerstove or my gut feeling of playing for a while is what i based it on.

i do freely admit that you play a more lag style than me and so certainly the range you play will be wider than mine. however from a lot of posts you make it seems like you play a very raise or fold style which i don't think can be optimal. that's what i was referring to when i said that you seemed to post very laggy/spewy stuff a lot.

i was surprised to see several people jump in and say it's a good range just because it struck me as very far from it and i'd be very surprised if any of them actually play those hands.

this isn't me insulting you; it's good that you can post whatever you want without fear of embarrassment and i think you should continue doing so. i as well have the same quality which is why i hope we can continue this productive discussion.

Re: What to do in late position with lots of limpers?
 

raising offsuit broadway hands like KTo after lots of limpers is a poor play, both equity wise (even limpers easily have you dominated) and strategy-wise (you cant defend your hand with a raise if you flop top pair).

playing offsuit hands like 97o even in late position is also a long term loser, given that the blinds could still raise and you dont have any equity advantage over the limpers to begin with.

Re: What to do in late position with lots of limpers?
 

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Personally I'd raise 77+, A8s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+ and KQo from both the button and the CO (especially if raising might buy me the button).
And if there's even more limpers I'd raise with some more suited cards (Axs for instance) and pocket pairs.

At a table this loose, you can benefit a great deal from your preflop EV...

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I like your range there.. although I can't see myself raising ATo..
SSHE's range for raising in LP in loose games is
AA-88, any two suited ten or higher, a8s+, k9s, AK-AJ and KQ.
Pretty close to mine, although for some reason I think I'd limp with 88 and k9s =p