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-   -   Moving Up (tl;dr) (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=534322)

QTip 10-30-2007 12:58 AM

Moving Up (tl;dr)
 
The reason for this post is to encourage others who are aspiring to move up in limits. Here's my story. (btw, this isn't a brag post, although I am proud of what I've done in NL. However, we all know how poker can be sometimes, so I'm thankful that I didn't get the doomswitch for 30k hands or whatever. I've been fortunate as I moved up as well.) I went from micros to mid stakes in basically 5 months of play. I don’t think I’m anyone special or a great player.

Background: I played almost a million hands of limit FR before I started NL. I had about a year and a half break in there as well. Anyway, I share that to say that I did have a lot of poker experience before I started NL. Not the same game, of course, but I had a lot of time invested in learning to read hands, boards, different lines against different opponents, multitabling, etc.

We have many reasons for playing poker. I had decided that upon my return, I was playing to play bigger...move up in stakes. So, this is for those starting who are like I am in my reasons for playing. The danger with this is usually that you move up quicker than your skill level improves...saw it in limit often…and that’s ok.

The Story:

April + May 2007

On April 1st, I deposited $250 into UB. I figured that would be my roll for the NL10 game. I played around a bit and mostly 1 or 2 tabled while I played NL10. I was trying to learn the game. I posted quite a bit here trying to pick something up here or there. Of course, I got all the books and read those as well.

I got the deposit bonus there, and started the terrible process of clearing that. I did that for about 2 month. At the start of June, I had put in 14k hands. I had played nl10 pretty straight forward. I just waited until I hit a big hand and value bet the crap out of it.

I had 10k hands in of NL10 at 10 ptbb/100

I also tried NL25 a bit. At that point, I had put 5k hands in of that and was pretty much even at +$1.47

June 2007

I didn’t play in June almost at all…only 5k hands and was pretty much break even there….but I had spent quite a bit of time reading books and learning.

July 2007

I decided to really get serious with NL at this point. I opened up accounts at FT and used my old PS account and started multitabling. I cleared those bonuses during this month as well. I decided I wanted to really focus on getting my roll bigger in a quick way. So, I started focusing on clearing my FT bonus and getting a $650 PS bonus. So, I started to 20 table.

I put in 10k hands of NL25 at 4 ptbb/100 and started NL50

I spent quite a bit of time at NL50 I put in 60k hands of it and ran at 2.0 ptbb/100.

At the end of the month, I got in like 7k hands of nl100 and pretty much broke even.

August 2007

I did some shortstacking here while 20 tabling as well. I was just trying to build up points and get used to the bigger #s as well.

I put in 10k hands of NL100 and ran at 3 ptbb/100
I also put in 25k hands of NL200 and ran at 2.8 ptbb/100
I even put in 2k hands of NL400 and ran at 3 ptbb/100

Not all of this was shortstacking, but a good deal of it was. It’s an interesting thing to do; however, I didn’t enjoy it at all.

It was a good time of building the roll as I got my $650 bonus from PS as well.

September 2007

I decided that this month was the end of shortstacking. I also had purchased PNLHE the week before, and that was really helping me think about the game as well.

I put in 43k hands of NL200 at 4.6 ptbb/100
I put it 3k hands of NL400 at (1.3) ptbb/100

I had an $8k month tho with bonuses, and I hadn’t really thought that would come for a long time.

October 2007

This month has been a great step for me.

21k hands of NL200 at 3.5 ptbb/100
21k hands of NL400 at 2.8 ptbb/100
18k hands of NL600 at 3.66 ptbb/100
1k hand of NL1000 at (0.7) ptbb/100

A whopper month in terms of $ for me, and I’m well rolled for these games now and feel very comfortable.

Summary and My Pointers:

Be aggressive as you move up. There are plenty of poor players at every level. I went up with like 15 buy ins for every level, sometimes a bit sooner. Don’t feel like it’s a failure to abandon ship on a move up. I would do so after losing 5 buyins and had to do that a couple times. Poker can throw some serious fits, and we all have plenty of things to work on in our games. Always think about the game in terms of BB instead of money. This helps you not to freak out when it’s time to push $600 or whatever in someone’s face.

Learn to multitable. It’s really the quickest way to move up. Yes, this can stunt some growth, so make sure you’re focusing on learning as well. You can’t make money without getting the hands in, period.

Introduce a few tables of the new level for a while. Sometimes the shock of the bigger numbers can do some damage. I have always played 2 levels higher before moving up..just for a bit. You could even ss it if you wanted. This just make the #s look smaller when I went down to my “new” level. So, when I played NL100, I started with like 2 tables of NL200 and the other 10 with NL100...then later made 6 of them 200, and so forth.

Focus on the fish. You’re just not going to make much money in the long run from other tags imo. Most of the regs in the games I’m playing now are better than me. I do my best not to tangle with them too much, but I’m scared to either if you know what I mean. The point is tho, get a good seat on a fish and focus on getting in hands with them.

Don’t get caught up in FPS. I really think this has a heavy impact in online play. It often seems like the one to get out of line 1st loses. Reads are so much more difficult online, so when you wait for others to get out of line, you profit. This doesn’t mean to never bluff, 3 bet light, etc. But, as is always the case, better starting hands make better hands in the long run. Don’t get caught up in the machoness. Keep a level head.

Always focus on learning. Never stop reading, posting hands, replying and so forth.

My Goals:

I’m really not sure how much longer I’ll stay at FR. If I can maintain even half of my earnings in October, I’d certainly have no reason to complain. However, the games are getting less and less available at these levels. So, I’m seriously considering 6m.

Anyway, that’s the story. GL to you in your moving up.


Here’s a money graph and a BB graph.

http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/9488/obbgraphzb2.jpg
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/9...47f49d89c1.jpg

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/5238/omgraphee1.jpg

the_main 10-30-2007 01:08 AM

Re: Moving Up (tl;dr)
 
tl;dr




but I will after my session [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Zeclion 10-30-2007 01:24 AM

Re: Moving Up (tl;dr)
 
Very nice post! Has been added to my favorites.

LearningCurve 10-30-2007 03:34 AM

Re: Moving Up (tl;dr)
 
Q-Tip,

You already know this as I've told you before, but your rise up has been very inspiring. From reading the fine details it definitely wasn't all easy. 20-tabling means you put a good number of hands into the process. I also know that you spent at least as much time responding to posts as you did in making posts of your own.

Fantastic story, great work, and I wish you the best of luck in tackling and conquering 6-max. GOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGO!

LC

Das Budrick 10-30-2007 04:20 AM

Re: Moving Up (tl;dr)
 
I am inspired.

I've recently moved up to 100nl, played 21k hands at 2 ptbb/100. However 2k hands ago I changed my style from 15/8 to 16/12, with much better results. As soon as I finish clearing some bonus money (5k more hands) I'll take a shot with a ~$3k roll at 1/2. Hope I fare well!

gieffe 10-30-2007 09:29 AM

Re: Moving Up (tl;dr)
 
you're definitely moving up fast and with no fear. i admire that.
i notice that you are pretty much keeping the same bb/100 rate in every level you play... that is also impressive. do you adjust your play when you take shots at higher stakes?

i am also trying what you are trying: playing at a higher level at one table only while multitabling. it is working fine for the moment but i'm not as confident as you are.

your post is a boost of confidence for me.

thanks

CallMeJohn 10-30-2007 09:42 AM

Re: Moving Up (tl;dr)
 
Good Advice Q-Tip.

I recently moved from 100NL to 200NL and i found i independently stumbled upon some of your suggestions.

I know i treated moving up in stakes as a big mental road block. When i finally made the move and became comfortable with the bet sizes, i realized the game played exactly the same.

hopefully my move to 400NL is not as delayed.

Brimstead 10-30-2007 09:45 AM

Re: Moving Up (tl;dr)
 
very encouraging post

i moved up limits a couple of weeks ago and am breaking even over 10k hands.... glad to see the same happened to you at some stage, yet it came good in the end

Djcoax 10-30-2007 09:50 AM

Re: Moving Up (tl;dr)
 
Very nice post but I'm a bit confused regarding your personal story. I read some QTip threads today about you going pro and then going back to regular work again , saying you won't be posting much at these forums.

I gather you're back ? Where's the missing post ?

QTip 10-30-2007 09:50 AM

Re: Moving Up (tl;dr)
 
[ QUOTE ]
you're definitely moving up fast and with no fear. i admire that.
i notice that you are pretty much keeping the same bb/100 rate in every level you play... that is also impressive. do you adjust your play when you take shots at higher stakes?

i am also trying what you are trying: playing at a higher level at one table only while multitabling. it is working fine for the moment but i'm not as confident as you are.

your post is a boost of confidence for me.

thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

All responders: Glad to see that this is encouraging to others.

gieffe, to your question about adjusting as you move up:

I had experience with this in limit. I'm not sure if everyone is this way, but I always find myself wanting to play more aggressive when I move up to another level. I kinda feel like I have to do this cuz that's what the big boys do. However, this normally blows up in my face. Now I try to tighten up some and be even more paitent. We're looking to minimize variance until our roll is comfortable at the new level.


Here's another tip I did. Also, you may want to experiment playing like a 60x-80x stack when you first enter the level. This helps hands play easier until you start getting data on your regs and find out who you're opponents are, then you can buy in full it if makes sense.

QTip 10-30-2007 09:54 AM

Re: Moving Up (tl;dr)
 
[ QUOTE ]
Very nice post but I'm a bit confused regarding your personal story. I read some QTip threads today about you going pro and then going back to regular work again , saying you won't be posting much at these forums.

I gather you're back ? Where's the missing post ?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you read posts like that, you were going back a ways and were reading from the limit forum. I did play full time in limit. I made a lot of money, but not enough for our lifestyle back then (I have a family of 5). I did get a job and took a break from cards around March 2006. That's the gap between the then and April 2007 when I decided to fiddle around with NL. I still have a full time job.

This actually brings up a great topic as well. After March 2006, we drasiticlly reduced our spending. Now we have a much more modest budget. Having a job and not depending on the poker money is HUGE for building the roll and playing without any preasure. There's nothing worse than a big downswing when bills are pouring in. Also, if you're building your roll to move up in stakes, any withdraw for spending really sucks.

QTip 10-30-2007 10:02 AM

Re: Moving Up (tl;dr)
 
[ QUOTE ]
I do my best not to tangle with them too much, but I’m NOTscared to either if you know what I mean.

[/ QUOTE ]

threads13 10-30-2007 10:06 AM

Re: Moving Up (tl;dr)
 
You sure have moved up quickly. It inspires me to get my head out of my arse.

xxrod17xx 10-30-2007 10:18 AM

Re: Moving Up (tl;dr)
 
You put in the work for sure. We started at 10NL at the same time and I am only at 25NL! I am taking a bit of a different road. I feel I am missing a lot of the basic concepts of the math and stuff in Hold'em that I am 100% you already had coming in from your limit background. I single table to try and develop these basics and then I will def start adding tables as soon I feel like I have the basics down. Ill catch up to you in no time!

gieffe 10-30-2007 11:53 AM

Re: Moving Up (tl;dr)
 
you have a family of 5, a full time job and still u can play so many hands? how many hours a day can you dedicate to poker?

i have a full time job and a family of... 3 and struggling to play at least 1-2 hours per day.

thanks for your tips, they all make a lot of sense.

QTip 10-30-2007 11:59 AM

Re: Moving Up (tl;dr)
 
I have 86 hours in this month. This is about 3 hours a day average. I try to get in like an hour somewhere before night time, and then get a couple in at night after the kids go to bed.

Landlord79 10-30-2007 12:22 PM

Re: Moving Up (tl;dr)
 
I think I'm gonna get off my butt and try adding a site to my regular Bodog regiment. We'll see how it goes. I'm also gonna take a shot at $200NL the first time that I feel 100% in November. Thanks for the inspiration!

I'm only able to play about 2 hrs a day for 2 to 4 days in a week. My one kid (2) needs to be in bed and my wife needs to be given attention to first, so I have to tred lightly with the poker thing. Usually 20 hours or so.

kidpokeher 10-30-2007 01:15 PM

Re: Moving Up (tl;dr)
 
Nice post Q-tip, thanks for sharing.

helter skelter 10-30-2007 02:14 PM

Re: Moving Up (tl;dr)
 
What is your xx\xx\xx?

Any particular opening hand strategy you follow?

QTip 10-30-2007 02:35 PM

Re: Moving Up (tl;dr)
 
Like a lot of players, I've adjusted this several times...always coming up with different thoughts. I've ranged from playing stretches of hands at 18/12, 16/14, 14/7

etc.

I stay pretty aggressive around 3.x

Most of the time as you're tables go up, your vpip/pfr % go down. You're just forced to play a bit more ABC game.

helter skelter 10-30-2007 02:53 PM

Re: Moving Up (tl;dr)
 
What I meant by opening hand strategy was, do you follow some guide about what you do with certain hands in certain positions.

I know optimally, it should vary with table conditions. I just figured if you are playing so many tables, you might not be able to vary strategy by table and maybe are playing in a more formulaic manner (in other words, maybe leaving money on the table, but staying out of trouble)

QTip 10-30-2007 03:02 PM

Re: Moving Up (tl;dr)
 
Not really...after practice, you can become quite good at multitabling and still using your brain.

pkbj1632 10-30-2007 03:51 PM

Re: Moving Up (tl;dr)
 
Qtip, tnks for share,
i want to ask
any advice/tip/comments on Half-staking ???

i feel confortable with 50 60 BB, and some scary with > 100 BB. Some people here tell me that i MUST to go down a level, but i dont want to do.
I think withn 50 BB i can play some "real poker", because i can do every move in the same way if I has full ( i have enough bb to C-BET, 3bet,bluff, and i have FE etc.)
i just minimize variance in both way, but that is ok for me..

any Thought??

QTip 10-30-2007 04:06 PM

Re: Moving Up (tl;dr)
 
Absolutely.

One of my favorite things about poker is you can do whatever you want. I could go on about this topic, but that all by itself is probably enough.

yellowbluebus 10-30-2007 04:32 PM

Re: Moving Up (tl;dr)
 
QTip,

I've lurked and posted very little in the limit forums and always thought of you as one of the respected posters. I decided to give NL a try in March. I remember you taking a break from poker and when I saw you posting again I thought that I'd keep an eye on your progress. Your post is very inspiring and shows that dedication is key. I couldn't help but ask myself how this guys is moving up so fast in stakes? I'd see you make a post about NL10 hand and then two weeks later NL25, NL50 and so on. Well, now I understand how you got where you are now. Thank you for sharing.

QTip 10-30-2007 04:42 PM

Re: Moving Up (tl;dr)
 
happy to share...gl with nl.

MrBump 10-30-2007 07:08 PM

Re: Moving Up (tl;dr)
 
Inspiring post, thanks for sharing.

I play fewer tables (only 3 atm lol), preferring a higher winrate and also being able to get a good "feel" of what is going on at each table (who is tilting, bluffing, getting impatient, etc)

I spent a long long time (about 20,000 hands single-tabling) at $10NL to really learn the game and iron out my major leaks. The money I won was meaningless at $10NL, but this taught me patience and discipline. I only moved up to $25NL when I was confident I was a winning player

I moved up to $25NL when my BR reached $400 and played very nitty at first until my BR reached $500+ After ~7500 hands at $25NL, my winrate was >10ptBB / 100 and my BR reached $800. A tiny sample of hands I know, but enough to give me confidence to take a shot at $50NL, which I did today. I hope to continue aggressively moving up the stakes, while continuing to improve my game. If anyone is interested, check out my blog for how I moved up [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

five4suited 10-30-2007 07:28 PM

Re: Moving Up (tl;dr)
 
[ QUOTE ]
I play fewer tables (only 3 atm lol), preferring a higher winrate and also being able to get a good "feel" of what is going on at each table (who is tilting, bluffing, getting impatient, etc)

[/ QUOTE ]

fwiw, I did this for a long time for the exact same reason, and it was very, very helpful. As you're aware though, at the smaller limits this doesn't add up to much actual cash without playing 10,000 hours a month. I started adding tables and just decided to suck it up and FOCUS. After a while it wasn't hard, but I did lose some money in the transition.

AceHigh 10-30-2007 08:27 PM

Re: Moving Up (tl;dr)
 
Good post, inspires me to play more.

How is your multi-table setup? Do you stack all your tables on top of each other, tile or cascade?

What are you VPIP and PFR percentages and how have they changed as you moved up?

Thanks in advance.

QTip 10-30-2007 10:50 PM

Re: Moving Up (tl;dr)
 
I've done them all, but I've now settled on the vertical tile.

Somewhere in this thread I've mentioned that my vpip/pfr has changed a bit over different trains of thought. I don't think this has much to do with the limit. However, I will say that I've had to tighten up more at 5/10 and 3/6 because there is a lot more pfring.

jetsetboy 10-30-2007 10:52 PM

Re: Moving Up (tl;dr)
 
tl, dr and I'm quite jalous.


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