very tough spot with flopped set
 

full 10.

i limp 33 utg. a few more limpers and the blinds check.

flop is K63 all diamonds. SB checks, BB leads. I raise. horrible player cold calls 2. villain 3 bets. for reference, the 3 bettor has:

1) cold called me pf with KK and just called me the whole way on a paired board (I had 66 and thought I was vbetting)

2) had a vpip of at least 80% in the 4 hours or so we've played

3) played a c/c game on all 3 streets on the majority of his hands.

anyway it folds to me. what is my plan?

Re: very tough spot with flopped set
 

if he wouldn't do this with less than the flush, you have a redraw. call and try to hit it. by the river, the pot size is going to require a hell of an accurate read to lay it down. even so, you have bottom set on a monotone board with a loose-passive player going crazy. how often do you really think you're good here UI? i wouldn't think too often.

Re: very tough spot with flopped set
 

Ugh. How do you find yourself in these spots all the time? This just doesn't happen to me that much...

Well, I don't think you're going to fold out the tard on the flop, and that's the only reason I can think of to raise given that we're pretty certain we're drawing. What I would actually be more scared of right now is another set. Don't players this passive usually slowplay a lot if they flop a flush like this? I wouldn't be surprised at all if he turned up with K6 or 66.

I'm calling the flop. The chances I'm behind are just too great. I don't have a workable turn plan right now. On one hand I want to raise and charge Mr. Horrible the maximum to draw. On the other I think I might puke if I got three banged. I'm leaning toward calling. I really think we're drawing, and at least Mr. Sucky give us some overlay.

I think I have to pay this off on the river if I don't catch a board pair and no more diamonds come. But it's close, and I wouldn't think less of you for folding.

Re: very tough spot with flopped set
 

Just wondering, OP, what kind of table does it take for you to limp 33 UTG like this. Not a judgment on your play, just a honest question to help me learn. You're obviously expecting to see a couple more limpers, not including the blinds. Can you provide a broader table description, or does the one "terrible player" make limp standard?

Re: very tough spot with flopped set
 

most any table of live limit poker

especially tables with bad loose passive players who like to limp a lot of crap hands preflop

Re: very tough spot with flopped set
 

also please cap the flop
we have a set

Re: very tough spot with flopped set
 

[ QUOTE ]
Just wondering, OP, what kind of table does it take for you to limp 33 UTG like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Passive and/or prone to large multi-way pots for only 1-2 bets pre-flop. Additionally its a horrible thing to do unless you play very well postflop, have a great image pre-flop, and you can maximize the rare times that you do indeed hit. I'd think its safe to say I wouldn't recommend a lot of the posters in this forum do it, but some would be foolish if they didn't exploit small edges such as limping w/33 UTG.

Re: very tough spot with flopped set
 

tt, i think you haven't played many live lower limit games then lately...

Re: very tough spot with flopped set
 

Im leaning towards capping the flop. A lot of bad live players tend to either get really passive or really aggressive on monotone boards.

Your villain here has a record of being very passive, his 3 bet could mean a higher set, or more likely a king with a decent diamond kicker (limped AK?), or 6x with a diamond kicker and SD, etc.

If you put him squarely on a higher set or flopped flush, then call all the way down. I can see this villain holding a big flush card and a pair rather than a higher set or flopped flush. Most live tards will play it stupid and raise the turn with their flopped flush instead of playing the flop fast, and instead play the flop fast with a monster draw...in my experience.

The cold caller sandwiched inbetween you two is most likely holding a diamond too or is just really dumb.

Cap the flop and lead a safe turn, re-eval if raised.

Re: very tough spot with flopped set
 

[ QUOTE ]
Passive and/or prone to large multi-way pots for only 1-2 bets pre-flop. Additionally its a horrible thing to do unless you play very well postflop, have a great image pre-flop, and you can maximize the rare times that you do indeed hit. I'd think its safe to say I wouldn't recommend a lot of the posters in this forum do it, but some would be foolish if they didn't exploit small edges such as limping w/33 UTG.

[/ QUOTE ]Are you kidding? Small pocket pairs are profitable, and easy to play post-flop. Image means nothing because nobody is paying attention.

Re: very tough spot with flopped set
 

[ QUOTE ]
Cap the flop and lead a safe turn, re-eval if raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: very tough spot with flopped set
 

I play in the same games as Kit, and while I do normally play even the smallest pocket pairs in EP, I have been considering dumping them lately. The 10/20 AC games are pretty aggressive, at least half usually have a raise preflop, and it is tough to capitalize when you do hit from OOP.

Re: very tough spot with flopped set
 

[ QUOTE ]
it is tough to capitalize when you do hit from OOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

i disagree.

if there are many folks between you and the PFR, lead to trap.

if the PFR is right after you , CR to trap

pretty simple.

Re: very tough spot with flopped set
 

Well, maybe I should have said it is tough for _me_ to capitalize when I hit from OOP.

Honestly though, I rarely feel comfortable enough with bottom set in a multiway pot that I want to trap the field for two bets and bloat the pot. There are almost always straight and flush draws possible, and I would rather not take any chances, especially when the pot is already large. Maybe I am playing too scared though?

Re: very tough spot with flopped set
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well, maybe I should have said it is tough for _me_ to capitalize when I hit from OOP.

Honestly though, I rarely feel comfortable enough with bottom set in a multiway pot that I want to trap the field for two bets and bloat the pot. There are almost always straight and flush draws possible, and I would rather not take any chances, especially when the pot is already large. Maybe I am playing too scared though?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would agree that if you are concerned about draws to the point where you don't want to make the pot huge when you have a set, then yeah, you're playing scared.

Re: very tough spot with flopped set
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Passive and/or prone to large multi-way pots for only 1-2 bets pre-flop. Additionally its a horrible thing to do unless you play very well postflop, have a great image pre-flop, and you can maximize the rare times that you do indeed hit. I'd think its safe to say I wouldn't recommend a lot of the posters in this forum do it, but some would be foolish if they didn't exploit small edges such as limping w/33 UTG.

[/ QUOTE ]Are you kidding? Small pocket pairs are profitable, and easy to play post-flop. Image means nothing because nobody is paying attention.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you need to re-read my post, you only read what you wanted to see. Small pocket pairs are of course profitable if you play well post flop, but if your a bad player who lips with 33 and when it becomes a multiway pot then you check-call on a 5 way flop of 8 2 J because its ragged then its bound to be a losing play in the long run (I think a lot of readers of this forum aren't good players yet but are on their way). Image also makes a difference because if your opponents are just slightly observant they will call instead of raise with part of their range, and for others they will limp in more loosely because they think to themselves "if the guy who always is raising thinks its ok to limp, then the waters must be safe".

Re: very tough spot with flopped set
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, maybe I should have said it is tough for _me_ to capitalize when I hit from OOP.

Honestly though, I rarely feel comfortable enough with bottom set in a multiway pot that I want to trap the field for two bets and bloat the pot. There are almost always straight and flush draws possible, and I would rather not take any chances, especially when the pot is already large. Maybe I am playing too scared though?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would agree that if you are concerned about draws to the point where you don't want to make the pot huge when you have a set, then yeah, you're playing scared.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not afraid to put money in with a low set, but I would usually be somewhat inclined to play it in the opposite way suggested by Kit; either to bet into the PFR hoping to get raised, or to c/r a late position PFR. Either way I would hoping to face the field with calling two bets cold rather than trapping them for a beat each two different times.

Re: very tough spot with flopped set
 

OK I re-read it. Unfortunately it was worse the second time around. You said, "It's a horrible thing to do unless you play very well postflop," and "have a great image pre-flop."

All you need to do is play adequately post-flop and you'll do fine with baby pairs. Hell, while something like 77 is slightly more profitable than 33, the smaller pair is easier to play because you'll almost never be faced with a tough decision caused by flopping top or second pair.

[ QUOTE ]
but if your a bad player who lips with 33 and when it becomes a multiway pot then you check-call on a 5 way flop of 8 2 J because its ragged then its bound to be a losing play in the long run

[/ QUOTE ]Of course this is a losing play, but I'd bet that 99% of the Small Stakes posters aren't chasing two-outers with 33. Give them more credit than that.

[ QUOTE ]
if your opponents are just slightly observant they will call instead of raise with part of their range, and for others they will limp in more loosely because they think to themselves "if the guy who always is raising thinks its ok to limp, then the waters must be safe".

[/ QUOTE ]I didn't understand your first example. Why would they not raise, and how does it hurt you?

Regardless, UTG you have three types of hands: Junk; multi-way hands; Heads-up hands.

If I'm playing a multi-way hand like 33, I want people to limp behind me. I'm happy if they limp with hands they were going to raise, because it decreases the chance that their raise knocks out some of my customers behind them. And if they limp a hand they were going to fold, I don't care. The more the merrier, because I want a bunch of people in there paying me off when my hand hits.

Re: very tough spot with flopped set
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am not afraid to put money in with a low set, but I would usually be somewhat inclined to play it in the opposite way suggested by Kit; either to bet into the PFR hoping to get raised, or to c/r a late position PFR. Either way I would hoping to face the field with calling two bets cold rather than trapping them for a beat each two different times.

[/ QUOTE ]

Kit has the righto f it; tricking your opponents into calling one so they call another one is better for you then facing them with two cold if there's any chance they will fold (because if they will fold, it was probably a longshot that should fold given your hand).

Re: very tough spot with flopped set
 

I think deuce is right in the above post. When OOP with multiway hands its best to go for overcalls unless you are damn sure the person to act after you is going to bet. Then a c/r might be profitable.

Re: very tough spot with flopped set
 

I love the limp PF with 33.
You got lucky and flopped your set but got unlucky because a loose passive villain 3-bangs you on a flush board. If he's really passive (and he seems like it given your history with him) I don't think there's any way he 3bangs this flop with another set or two pair. Live, the passives I play with crap their panties on a flush board unless they've flopped it. Given your read I think he flopped his flush and, with the action in front, he's decided to take the pot right now.
I trust my read here.. call the flop raise and check/fold if you don't turn quads or a boat.. unless you're feeling lucky and want to see the river.

Re: very tough spot with flopped set
 

Kit,

Cap here. If he leads again, just call unless you fill up. If he checks, bet the turn. Vomit and call if check-raised on the turn.

In this game, I think we can find a river fold UI if you cap and he continues to fire.

Re: very tough spot with flopped set
 

[ QUOTE ]
I trust my read here.. call the flop raise and check/fold if you don't turn quads or a boat.. unless you're feeling lucky and want to see the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he showed you a flopped flush, you should certainly see the river. The pot would be laying you around 8:1 to hit around 10 outs. There's no reason to believe the 3rd player has anything better than a K or a big [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

As for the original hand, the horrible 3rd player makes me think we have enough overlay to cap the flop for value, then call a turn bet and fold the river UI if we *really* trust our read.

Re: very tough spot with flopped set
 

ok, i'm not sure everyone is getting the action correctly. sorry for not clarifying.

there is a reason this spot is pretty tough.

the person who 3 bet the flop is in late position. what happened was the BB led, I raised, a bad player called, and the late position player 3 bet. the BB then folded and it was on me.

i was faced with a decision of either capping the flop and leading the turn into a potential flush, or calling the flop and checking the turn and possibily giving away a free card. alternatively, i guess i could have called the flop and led a safe turn, but if i chose that route then not capping the flop the 1st time was a mistake.

in position, this hand becomes really easy to play. OOP, much harder.

so, after all that, we still like a flop cap?

Re: very tough spot with flopped set
 

Damn, I definitely got that messed up. I would puke if I call here and it gets checked through on the turn. I think I'm still in the cap camp (for value), because even if we're behind, we have a ton of outs to a monster and, to be honest, capping will camoflauge our hand if we hit, because who would cap the flop with *just* a set?

Or am I way off in my thinking?

Re: very tough spot with flopped set
 

Problem with that is, we have a confirmed passive 3-banging a flush board with action in front. I choose not to ignore that information. I don't think he cares what we have unless/until the board pairs.

Re: very tough spot with flopped set
 

Unless villain is freecarding a draw (which doesn't sound like something he would do), I don't know why you think a brick turn is going to check through.

Re: very tough spot with flopped set
 

Who thinks a brick turn is getting checked through?

Re: very tough spot with flopped set
 

A couple people earlier in the page. I'm using quick reply, that wasn't directed at you.

Re: very tough spot with flopped set
 

I'd cap this flop. Even if he has the flush, we have ten outs to beat it and still two cards to come.

Re: very tough spot with flopped set
 

If your read on this villain is that he would never 3 bet the flop with out the made flush, then you are behind but with a good draw.

If you call, there are probably two people left in the pot. If you cap it, you might knock out the bad player between, but I don’t see any reason to knock him out. If you do knock out the bad player, the cap is –EV, because you are going to only make your draw around one third of the time.

I would go into check/call mode and try to hit my draw. Putting anymore money than you have to into the pot is definitely –EV if it is HU, probably slightly -EV with 2 opponents.

Re: very tough spot with flopped set
 

Ohhhhhhhhh. I didn't get it. It looked like the BB three bet.

Well, if we aren't comfortable capping and leading is there a reason that we can't call and lead? I hate the idea of giving a possible free card here and I would rather get bumped on the turn than do that, so I guess I'm in the cap/lead camp if that's the only option to ensure no free cards on the turn.

Re: very tough spot with flopped set
 

[ QUOTE ]
Unless villain is freecarding a draw (which doesn't sound like something he would do), I don't know why you think a brick turn is going to check through.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: very tough spot with flopped set
 

what the hell? are we looking at the same opponent here? how is this guy 3betting less than a flush EVER?

just for the sake of arguement, stove these hands against our 33:

Ad5c
Qd7d
Kh8s

these aren't ranges, but i think they're typical hands we would run into in this situation based on the players and the action.

edit to say:

sunday i hurt my back. so i've been hopped up on crazy pain meds since then. in my deluded state i actually misjudged our equity in this spot, but the point of the above hands was that the King was providing overlay and why would we want to get rid of him by capping? he increases our implied odds fairly significantly.

Re: very tough spot with flopped set
 

[ QUOTE ]
what the hell? are we looking at the same opponent here? how is this guy 3betting less than a flush EVER?


[/ QUOTE ]

james, in your experience then, passive players like this would never 3 bet something like Ad6x?

i mean, one reason i posted this hand is that sometimes i feel that although we read someone as "very passive" we can easily underestimate what they're capable of in certain spots

Re: very tough spot with flopped set
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
what the hell? are we looking at the same opponent here? how is this guy 3betting less than a flush EVER?


[/ QUOTE ]

james, in your experience then, passive players like this would never 3 bet something like Ad6x?

i mean, one reason i posted this hand is that sometimes i feel that although we read someone as "very passive" we can easily underestimate what they're capable of in certain spots

[/ QUOTE ]

what it boils down to is the power of a live read.

as i said in a post the other day, even the most passive players are capable of spastic retardation at times. no rhyme or reason. no history. just BAM, retardo.

so yeah, it's possible. but is it what is going to happen the majority of the time? we have the equity to cap. but does that mean it's the most profitable play?

Re: very tough spot with flopped set
 

[ QUOTE ]

so yeah, it's possible. but is it what is going to happen the majority of the time? we have the equity to cap. but does that mean it's the most profitable play?

[/ QUOTE ]

basically, that is what my question was.

suppose he's capable of doing this with a range of:

flush
Ad6x (flush draw + pair)
Adx (naked Ace)
66
KK (yes he would limp PF)

is it more profitable to cap and lead a blank turn here, OOP?

Re: very tough spot with flopped set
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

so yeah, it's possible. but is it what is going to happen the majority of the time? we have the equity to cap. but does that mean it's the most profitable play?

[/ QUOTE ]

basically, that is what my question was.

suppose he's capable of doing this with a range of:

flush
Ad6x (flush draw + pair)
Adx (naked Ace)
66
KK (yes he would limp PF)

is it more profitable to cap and lead a blank turn here, OOP?

[/ QUOTE ]

Kit,

I'm almost positive your best play is to cap/lead against this range. In the actual hand, however, I think he has a flush almost always. You should be inclined to just call and c/c blank turns and lead turns where the board pairs.

JH