TT first hand at table!
 

No reads/stats as first hand at table. Whats my action here?
Incidentally, does everyone re raise here given we are completely in dark over opponents.

Poker Stars, $0.25/$0.50 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

BTN: $152.75
SB: $27.95
Hero (BB): $50
UTG: $43.85
CO: $83.30

Pre-Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BB)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $1</font>, CO folds, BTN calls $1, SB calls $0.75, <font color="red">Hero raises to $6.25</font>, UTG folds, BTN calls $5.25, <font color="red">SB raises to $20</font>, <font color="red">Hero ???

Re: TT first hand at table!
 

With 3 people in the pot preflop and being OOP to 2, I call for setvalue.

As played the fold to 4bet is easy IMO. This guy in the SB wanted to slowplay a monster and sees it isn;t necessary because he gets action already.

Re: TT first hand at table!
 

I like the 3bet preflop, because of the dead money in the pot and we can easily shut down ATs+,AJo+ postflop by cbetting a safe flop.

But we got to fold to his 4bet here.

Re: TT first hand at table!
 

Nice 3-bet preflop. Gotta fold to the 4-bet though. I'm curious as to why SB just didn't put it all in?? I guess maybe hoping for a call? I've also seen them do this as a total bluff and then fold when you push them all in but I don't know. I would fold with no reads.

Re: TT first hand at table!
 

Well, we need around 34-35% to shove so it's close.
Our 3-bet could easily be a squeeze, so I would probably gamble here.

Re: TT first hand at table!
 

lol @ preflop, if you're gonna do this do it with 72o. As played fold but I just call preflop, your hand is good but vulnerable and you want to get to sd - bloating the pot is not a very good way to do this, especially given that you are brand new to the table.

Re: TT first hand at table!
 

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Well, we need around 34-35% to shove so it's close.
Our 3-bet could easily be a squeeze, so I would probably gamble here.

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The avg villain in the micros has no idea what a squeeze play is.

Re: TT first hand at table!
 

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lol @ preflop, if you're gonna do this do it with 72o. As played fold but I just call preflop, your hand is good but vulnerable and you want to get to sd - bloating the pot is not a very good way to do this, especially given that you are brand new to the table.

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Good points, but I still dont want to play the fifth best pre flop holding in a 5 way min raised pot OOP.
I basically have to c/f all flops with overcards and not know where I really stand when the flop comes 872r for example.
How do you go about getting to SD from preflop in 5 way pot OOP???
I think my 3bet pre flop makes the whole hand so much easier to play post flop. It is quite possible (very likely) you are a better post flop player then I am, which is why you advocate calling. Thats fair enough, but please consider people who, in all likelihood, are not as good postflop.

As for 'lol @ preflop' comment, its a bit condescending tbh

Re: TT first hand at table!
 

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How do you go about getting to SD from preflop in 5 way pot OOP???

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Id rather cf the flop than spend a bunch of money turning my hand into a bluff. You are thinking too much about TT being the "5th best hand in poker", this is 1st level and wont get you anywhere. AA is the best hand in poker until 45s hits a flush, do you see what I mean? TT over 3 streets of betting between 5 people will sometimes be the best hand, but not always. But as a pure bluff, raising ANY hand out of the SB multiway and expecting to take it down either preflop or on the flop is ambitious at best.

Re: TT first hand at table!
 

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How do you go about getting to SD from preflop in 5 way pot OOP???

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Id rather cf the flop than spend a bunch of money turning my hand into a bluff. You are thinking too much about TT being the "5th best hand in poker", this is 1st level and wont get you anywhere. AA is the best hand in poker until 45s hits a flush, do you see what I mean? TT over 3 streets of betting between 5 people will sometimes be the best hand, but not always. But as a pure bluff, raising ANY hand out of the SB multiway and expecting to take it down either preflop or on the flop is ambitious at best.

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Im not raising as a bluff, Im raising for value, I believe I have the best hand and dont want to let crap like K5s or QJo get a cheap flop to outdraw me.
My mention of the fifth best hand in poker was basically me saying I think 1010 is a little too strong to start playing a multiway pot here, 22-99 I just call along.

Re: TT first hand at table!
 

But TT is exactly the same as 99, or 88, or any mid to small PP - cant stand overcards on the flop and will be vulnerable in what is likley to be a multiway raised pot out of position, and forced to turn itself into a bluff on the flop by cbetting, being floated and cf the turn. You must think about the play to the river and what type of flops you are going to be able to continue OOP in a multiway raised pot, and there arent many.

Re: TT first hand at table!
 

Ama, how do you play JJ there?

Re: TT first hand at table!
 

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Ama, how do you play JJ there?

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This is the subject of a whole thread which you'll find on the front page. I havent inputted there yet but Ive been flatcalling there with good results so far and Im thinking about defaulting to that line.

Re: TT first hand at table!
 

Also, more than anything the fact that this is your first hand at the table should make you more apt to be cautious rather than aggressive particularly out of position because you have no idea of your opponents calling tendencies.

Re: TT first hand at table!
 

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Ama, how do you play JJ there?

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This is the subject of a whole thread which you'll find on the front page. I havent inputted there yet but Ive been flatcalling there with good results so far and Im thinking about defaulting to that line.

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Very true, thanks I will have a read. I personally think JJ is an easy 3bet, 99 is an easy call and 1010 is very marginal, thus our difference of opinion maybe?
Possibly the other thread will change my thinking though.

Edit: this also comes down to reads (of which I had none here) and post flop skill. 3betting pre flop makes later decisions somewhat easier I feel

Re: TT first hand at table!
 

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Also, more than anything the fact that this is your first hand at the table should make you more apt to be cautious rather than aggressive particularly out of position because you have no idea of your opponents calling tendencies.

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Completely Agree

Re: TT first hand at table!
 

Back to the actual hand, what sorta range do we put SB on?
IMO he never has QQ-AA here, JJ I think is a possibility but I think this is AJ, AQ, KQ, lower PP etc.
Given the dead money and the fact he is a shortstack (another reason to widen his range) I think I can shove as an +EV play.
Opinions?

Re: TT first hand at table!
 

His range is weighted towards hands which are ahead of yours. I would say sometimes AA/KK but something more like QQ/JJ, AK, AQs, stuff like that. Its either "cool I got action now I push" or "wow I just want to get it in because I dont want to play postflop". I personally fold pretty easily, its a flip at best and readless I lay it down.

Re: TT first hand at table!
 

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Back to the actual hand, what sorta range do we put SB on?
IMO he never has QQ-AA here, JJ I think is a possibility but I think this is AJ, AQ, KQ, lower PP etc.
Given the dead money and the fact he is a shortstack (another reason to widen his range) I think I can shove as an +EV play.
Opinions?

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As played I agree. I think a lot of people may have missed that the SB cold called and then repopped preflop. I wouldn't say he never has JJ+ there, but I think it is rare.

Re: TT first hand at table!
 

I hate to agree with the consensus, but I don't think I like this 3-bet either.

Sure, you fold out junk, which makes the hand easier to play when the flop is raggy, but who are you getting calls from here? Hands that are either small-dogs or big favorites (okay so maybe the occasional smaller PP, but without reads this can still lead to an icky situation post-flop, since ranges will be fairly narrow after the 3-bet). So it folds out weaker hands, and could win the pot pre-flop but then, as ama said, using that logic why not make the same play with 72o?

I think the best line here, without reads, is to call and play fit-or-fold.


Edit for slow post: Your right, he might be skewed abit to the Ax range, but again, without reads, who knows? So you might be slightly +ev here. Maybe call/shove if you want to gamble?

Re: TT first hand at table!
 

wow - SB cold calls first time around, and then re-raises... why the hell would any of you guys put him on a premium hand

easy push imo, you are most likely 50/50 at worst and killing him at best.

Re: TT first hand at table!
 

also - if UTG raiser made a real raise, you have a case for calling pre-flop, but the min-raise pf means a mandatory 3-bet pre-flop. i don't think this is even debatable - do you know how wide people's ranges are for calling min-raises? it's HUGE - no way i let them see a flop for cheap and then have no idea where I am.

Re: TT first hand at table!
 

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Back to the actual hand, what sorta range do we put SB on?
IMO he never has QQ-AA here, JJ I think is a possibility but I think this is AJ, AQ, KQ, lower PP etc.
Given the dead money and the fact he is a shortstack (another reason to widen his range) I think I can shove as an +EV play.
Opinions?

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I think it's KK+ sometimes, and AK a lot. He is shortstack but you also have the button who is super deep left to act behind you, and there's no guarantee he won't cold call or even shove. I still think this is a fold.

Re: TT first hand at table!
 

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wow - SB cold calls first time around, and then re-raises... why the hell would any of you guys put him on a premium hand

easy push imo, you are most likely 50/50 at worst and killing him at best.

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against what range exactly?

Re: TT first hand at table!
 

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wow - SB cold calls first time around, and then re-raises... why the hell would any of you guys put him on a premium hand

easy push imo, you are most likely 50/50 at worst and killing him at best.

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against what range exactly?

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I've seen players do this with a ridiculously wide range, but w/o a read on this guy it's hard to say. But against an unknown I'm including all pocket pairs, most suited Aces and broadway cards.

Re: TT first hand at table!
 

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wow - SB cold calls first time around, and then re-raises... why the hell would any of you guys put him on a premium hand

easy push imo, you are most likely 50/50 at worst and killing him at best.

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against what range exactly?

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well, let's see, he cold calls pre-flop from the SB, where he will be completely OOP against 3 opponents for the rest of the hand and then pushes over the top only when OP re-raises? A premium hand makes no sense to me here unless he's ridiculously bad.

When I think about it more, I think we are most likely killing his range, which would be weighted highly towards 22-TT, with a very minority range of JJ+, AT+

Re: TT first hand at table!
 

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A premium hand makes no sense to me here unless he's ridiculously bad.

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first hand at table!

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Re: TT first hand at table!
 

so you assume all your opponents are ridiculously bad when you play?

Re: TT first hand at table!
 

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so you assume all your opponents are ridiculously bad when you play?

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Ha, I have no solid advice here that hasn't already been shared, but I think SB has already est himself as ridiculously bad no matter what he holds.

Re: TT first hand at table!
 

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so you assume all your opponents are ridiculously bad when you play?

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Ha, I have no solid advice here that hasn't already been shared, but I think SB has already est himself as ridiculously bad no matter what he holds.

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agreed but that doesnt make a call any more correct

Re: TT first hand at table!
 

What range do you put SB on Ama?

Re: TT first hand at table!
 

Three groups - premium hands (jj+, AKs) mid strength hands (mid pairs, AQs, AJs) and crap (Ace-nothing, air, 76s etc)

There are two relevant factors here. One is that no matter what his holding he has played the hand terribly, and the second is that we know nothing about him at all. For that reason I weight his range as 65/25/10 for good/med/crap.

given that with this assigned weighting we are behind or flipping with overcards 90% of the time its an easy fold for me.

Re: TT first hand at table!
 

Grunch.

I shove here. The SB's range is pretty much AK, AQ, AJ, and PP's like 77-99. Occasionally he will have AA/KK or QQ (and if so, take notes), but I've rarely seen it.

With all the dead money in the pot against this range, it's a clear shove.

Hand 0: 53.671% 53.46% 00.21% 461401200 1778850.00 { TT }
Hand 1: 46.329% 46.12% 00.21% 398042316 1778850.00 { QQ+, 99-77, AJs+, AJo+ }

He could have lower PP's as well than 77, I have seen some folks do this with 22-99, but it is usually when they are ultra short on cash. If you have $50 and they have $18 or so, they limp, you raise, they shove, it's almost always 22-TT, AK, AQ, AJ, ATs, and sometimes even Axs.

Note: If the button comes along for the ride, it just makes your shove even better value. He almost always has Ax or a PP smaller than yours if he calls.

Re: TT first hand at table!
 

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Three groups - premium hands (jj+, AKs) mid strength hands (mid pairs, AQs, AJs) and crap (Ace-nothing, air, 76s etc)

There are two relevant factors here. One is that no matter what his holding he has played the hand terribly, and the second is that we know nothing about him at all. For that reason I weight his range as 65/25/10 for good/med/crap.

given that with this assigned weighting we are behind or flipping with overcards 90% of the time its an easy fold for me.

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why is it 65 with premium hands? While I'm not sure if I agree with the other posters, I am inclined to think that his range is more likely a mid-strength hand. Can you explain your reasoning here?

Re: TT first hand at table!
 

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Three groups - premium hands (jj+, AKs) mid strength hands (mid pairs, AQs, AJs) and crap (Ace-nothing, air, 76s etc)

There are two relevant factors here. One is that no matter what his holding he has played the hand terribly, and the second is that we know nothing about him at all. For that reason I weight his range as 65/25/10 for good/med/crap.

given that with this assigned weighting we are behind or flipping with overcards 90% of the time its an easy fold for me.

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why is it 65 with premium hands? While I'm not sure if I agree with the other posters, I am inclined to think that his range is more likely a mid-strength hand. Can you explain your reasoning here?

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Im with you, using Amas range, Im weighting it 10 / 60-80 / 20-40 with the most important part being 10% for the premium range, Im quite sure they have a premium hand no where near 65% here

Re: TT first hand at table!
 

I'm surprised to see so many people saying just to call preflop. Had you called, 8 other posters would be in here saying to 3 bet lol.

Personally, I like the 3 bet preflop. No one has shown strength and you figure to have the best hand. After BU calls, and SB reraises, I would shove. SB has $28 in his stack and this is a donkey move. His range is huge. With the dead money in the pot, it more than makes up for the times you are behind.

Re: TT first hand at table!
 

i dont know, if they're really bad, they could be doing it more often than 10% i think, im just trying to see his reasoning here, so i can make a decision myself, atm, its pretty close, even if that makes me a flip-flopper after my earlier post.

Re: TT first hand at table!
 

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Three groups - premium hands (jj+, AKs) mid strength hands (mid pairs, AQs, AJs) and crap (Ace-nothing, air, 76s etc)

There are two relevant factors here. One is that no matter what his holding he has played the hand terribly, and the second is that we know nothing about him at all. For that reason I weight his range as 65/25/10 for good/med/crap.

given that with this assigned weighting we are behind or flipping with overcards 90% of the time its an easy fold for me.

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why is it 65 with premium hands? While I'm not sure if I agree with the other posters, I am inclined to think that his range is more likely a mid-strength hand. Can you explain your reasoning here?

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Im with you, using Amas range, Im weighting it 10 / 60-80 / 20-40 with the most important part being 10% for the premium range, Im quite sure they have a premium hand no where near 65% here

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we know quite literally nothing about our opponent other than that he has played the hand poorly. what we DO know is that he has put half his stack in the pot and likely wants to put the rest in also. now he might be dumb, but given that we know nothing about him we have to assume that he's got at least AQs+, in my opinion. I can almost completely discount hands like 77-88.

Re: TT first hand at table!
 

Not that it really matters, I shoved figuring to be in a coinflip (with money in pot making it +EV) and quite sure I was not crushed all that often, he had A6o, turned an Ace, nice.
I suppose it comes down to a matter of opinion really.
I have seen this kind of play made by so much crap, like any Ace, 2 broadway cards, mid PP etc that I was quite happy to get it in here.
Also, I think wslees posts are very good, especially the point about the first raise being a min raise, if UTG raises to 4BB and everyone else calls, I think Im much more inclined to just call.

Re: TT first hand at table!
 

ama,

i've agreed with you so far, and i have to say i'm probably in your boat, if only marginally, for the fact that i dont think i would want to gamble in this spot right now. i don't know if we can just abt discount smaller PPs, a dumbass might play it this way (limping for 'set-value', then reraising figuring they're ahead and scared of playing the hand post flop), and we cant really rule out SB as a dumb ass. i also dont think he's making this play with premium hands 65% of the time, but think its probably more than 10%. so, is your reasoning that, because he's dumb, he's gonna have AQs+ more often than a smaller PP? and why?

again, im just trying to see your line of thinking so i can make up my own.