Will my limit game improve?
 

I'm thinking about learning NL. I have some of the books (not 'Professional No-Limit Hold 'em: Volume I', I need that one I guess?).

I love limit and have absolutely no intention of quitting that game. What I wonder is, do you think my limit game will improve by learning NL? If so, in what way?

Re: Will my limit game improve?
 

Your question is a good one, which may have good answers. I can attest that playing NL has taken the fear right out of playing limit if there ever was any. There's a 12% chance he might checkraise me on the turn? pfftt..

In general, when you play NLHE, play stud, play omaha-8, you're learning to play "POKER" not just one variation of it. So you expand your mind in that way. Try playing NL and then LIMIT in the same session. When you sit at the limit table you may feel like your head's under water and your arms are in a straitjacket but you have to adjust. Or you may feel great about getting to raise so much without having to worry about folding to a big reraise.

"Professional No Limit" helped me to realize some things about the importance of position and how it affects play of the hand. And the idea of SPR's just makes things so much easier. So yes give it a look.

Re: Will my limit game improve?
 

NL will improve your limit game an INSANE amount. Because after getting used to NL you wont ever want to play limit again, and that is a big improvement [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Will my limit game improve?
 

One plays limit with the feel, nl with the thinking. After nl one is thinking when playing limit, and after limit one is feeling when playing nl.

Re: Will my limit game improve?
 

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One plays limit with the feel, nl with the thinking. After nl one is thinking when playing limit, and after limit one is feeling when playing nl.

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That is the greatest baloney I have ever read. You are an idiot, right?

Re: Will my limit game improve?
 

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That is the greatest baloney I have ever read. You are an idiot, right?

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Fack you, [censored].

Re: Will my limit game improve?
 

I don't think it helps. The games are just so different.
For me, limit is about finding tiny bits of value in marginal situations, even against donks much of the time.
Whenever I return to limit now (like yesterday), it takes me 2 orbits to realize you can't really bluff anyone out by repping the flush, and similar stuff.

Especially limit 6-max now, it really is sophisticated poo-flinging much ot the time. Limit has much more choices, but they're all about value.

NL is more about reads, since the ranges are so vastly different per villain. Less choices, but more important ones.

Re: Will my limit game improve?
 

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That is the greatest baloney I have ever read. You are an idiot, right?

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Fack you, [censored].

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yawn... accounts like this are so asinine...

Re: Will my limit game improve?
 

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I don't think it helps. The games are just so different.
For me, limit is about finding tiny bits of value in marginal situations, even against donks much of the time.
Whenever I return to limit now (like yesterday), it takes me 2 orbits to realize you can't really bluff anyone out by repping the flush, and similar stuff.

Especially limit 6-max now, it really is sophisticated poo-flinging much ot the time. Limit has much more choices, but they're all about value.

NL is more about reads, since the ranges are so vastly different per villain. Less choices, but more important ones.

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I disagree.. I think playing NL can definitely help your limit game.

When playing NL, you can pass up some thin equity because you can make it up fairly easily. This is not so true in limit and you really begin to see where those small value bets in limit are. I think coming from limit to NL, you will quickly see situations where you routinely bet/raise/peel in limit wash away in NL and turn into calls/folds (though sometimes peeling in NL is correct when it would be a fold in limit). Getting a better understanding of this dynamic will hopefully open your eyes to better value plays in limit.

Also, somewhat poor limit players can really gain by playing NL. IMO, new players to NL should really be tightening up their holdings so they do not get raped repeatedly. This can only be good for the poor limit player whose largest leak is typically playing too loose and the fear of facing monster bets can actually tighten a player up especially if they've been bitten a few times.

There are several aspects of both games that actually do complement the other quite well. Also learning different games, even different game types altogether (ie lolmaha/stud/badugi/etc) can really help in the way a player actually thinks about poker.

Re: Will my limit game improve?
 

I disagree.. I think playing NL can definitely help your limit game.

When playing NL, you can pass up some thin equity because you can make it up fairly easily. This is not so true in limit and you really begin to see where those small value bets in limit are. I think coming from limit to NL, you will quickly see situations where you routinely bet/raise/peel in limit wash away in NL and turn into calls/folds (though sometimes peeling in NL is correct when it would be a fold in limit). Getting a better understanding of this dynamic will hopefully open your eyes to better value plays in limit.



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On further introspection and experience, I have to agree. My 1st experience of playing limit after returning from NL was that I just couldn't fold anymore: I was always getting good odds it seems. Of course, I really wasn't, because my reads (i.e., the ranges I put them on) were just way off base for limit.
When you learn to re-adjust, and LOOK AGAIN AT THE SITUATION FROM VILLAIN's VIEWPOINT, NL actually forms a good experience: it is basically enriching your overall poker feel.

I have now, on several occasions, called down on reads where I just felt I shouldn't, but couldn't bring myself to folding. Every single time, I was beat when the money went in.

So yes, my personal experience now (just a few nights of analysed play) is that NL van help your limit, but only if you are able to use your overall knowledge to make better estimates about the overall poker situation. That is not easy.
In limit, you still have to call down, or even value bet 2-pair situations that would be an insta-muck at NL.
Also, you still should value bet hands that check to induce a bluff at NL (I make that mistake at limit at least 2 times/100 now, I think).
There's more.

So yes, on further experimentation I agree, tat it can help, but only because it simply helps you in being a better overall poker player.

The differences are so large, that almost all automatic moves of NL, do not apply at limit, and vice versa.


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Also, somewhat poor limit players can really gain by playing NL. IMO, new players to NL should really be tightening up their holdings so they do not get raped repeatedly. This can only be good for the poor limit player whose largest leak is typically playing too loose and the fear of facing monster bets can actually tighten a player up especially if they've been bitten a few times.


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I've only ever been able to play really TAG, when I was playing strict SSHE by the book. Ever since going mostly 6-max, I've been a semi-LAG, and it fits me well, so I don't really know.

Re: Will my limit game improve?
 

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One plays limit with the feel, nl with the thinking. After nl one is thinking when playing limit, and after limit one is feeling when playing nl.

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That is the greatest baloney I have ever read. You are an idiot, right?

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This may be one of the funniest posts ever!

Re: Will my limit game improve?
 

Playing some no limit has made me more aware of the bluffing opportunities I have in limit. (Yes, Virginia, there is bluffing in limit poker.)

Re: Will my limit game improve?
 

I found it completely backwards.

Played NL profitably for 4+ years before switching to primarily SH limit for my online game. I still play NL live, and it's SUCH an easier game. If you only have played NL (and aren't a damn savant) you're probably decent at preflop, decent on the flop, and god awful on the turn and river. Playing limit makes you much better at making decisions on all streets.

NL hurts your limit game in some aspects, 'cause you fold very often in NL, whereas showdown monkeys pull in the $ in limit.

Re: Will my limit game improve?
 

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I found it completely backwards.

Played NL profitably for 4+ years before switching to primarily SH limit for my online game. I still play NL live, and it's SUCH an easier game. If you only have played NL (and aren't a damn savant) you're probably decent at preflop, decent on the flop, and god awful on the turn and river. Playing limit makes you much better at making decisions on all streets.

NL hurts your limit game in some aspects, 'cause you fold very often in NL, whereas showdown monkeys pull in the $ in limit.

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I agree with this. NL helped me learn to read hands more narrowly, I suppose. I stick with limit because I find NL so bloody boring. The decisions are all pretty easy and you just fold forever. I practically fall asleep.

Re: Will my limit game improve?
 

To answer the OP, in my experience... NO!

After trying out NL for a few months, I decided to jump back into a limit $1/2 game. Terrible idea.

I lose much more money playing limit than no-limit. That was before trying NL, and after!

Re: Will my limit game improve?
 

Regarding PNLv1: I think it's a great book. I wouldn't try applying all of the concepts at once though. Particularly the SPR stuff. I think you can skip reading this stuff entirely until you feel more comfortable playing NL. It's just too much to keep in mind at the same time, for me at least.

Re: Will my limit game improve?
 

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To answer the OP, in my experience... NO!

After trying out NL for a few months, I decided to jump back into a limit $1/2 game. Terrible idea.

I lose much more money playing limit than no-limit. That was before trying NL, and after!

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All this really says is that you suck at limit.

Re: Will my limit game improve?
 

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Regarding PNLv1: I think it's a great book. I wouldn't try applying all of the concepts at once though. Particularly the SPR stuff. I think you can skip reading this stuff entirely until you feel more comfortable playing NL. It's just too much to keep in mind at the same time, for me at least.

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I dunno. I think trying to stick to SPR and hand planning, and maybe a 40BB buyin is a pretty good way to get your feet wet in NL as a preferable alternative to say 20BB/shortstacking strategy. I wish it was around when I'd started NL.

Re: Will my limit game improve?
 

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I'm thinking about learning NL. I have some of the books (not 'Professional No-Limit Hold 'em: Volume I', I need that one I guess?).

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The concepts are pretty advanced for a novice. Not that you're new to poker, just to NL.

A good place to start might be STTs. Just think nit early, LAGtard late, and you're pretty much a solid player.

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I love limit and have absolutely no intention of quitting that game.

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Me too. If only they'd repeal UIGEA and bring back the fish.

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What I wonder is, do you think my limit game will improve by learning NL? If so, in what way?

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Only if you think.

Thinking about poker helps all forms of poker. I think NL has more scope for thinking. You wouldn't write PNL about limit!

One big plus is that you gain more heart. If you are used to calling for your stack or your tourney life, calling for one bet becomes soooo easy. Even though you learn to fold a ton more in NL, when you come back, you are not a folder. You become much fiercer, much more aggro, much more willing to call the very small bets in limit.

Re: Will my limit game improve?
 

i started with limit in 2000. played $20-$40 for a year back when that was a big game. wild games, very easy, big swings. pots were so big there wasn't much folding. then got hooked on no-limit.

biggest thing that helped me was physical reads. i started noticing big-hand tells. they didn't conceal their reactions. made many a ninja fold of top pair on the flop, no one the wiser. this had a huge effect on my earn, literally a good read would save 2 big bets. (spend 3-4 fewer but probably was wrong at times.) i wouldn't fold unless i was really confident about it. it happened often, like once every couple hours, a HUGE increase in expectation.

from limit biggest thing that helped me was Tommy's training. i folded blinds waayyyy more than S&M recommended, early position a little more, and played loosely on the button. played about 1 in 6 hands, most in position. that made for an easy position transition.