[100nl] AA facing huge flop raise, shove or fold?
 

Unknown villain, no stats, he is 1-tabling. I pretty much have to shove or fold here right? Which would you opt for?

Full Tilt Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (9 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

CO ($111.45)
Button ($45.25)
SB ($168.70)
BB ($49.50)
UTG ($124.35)
UTG+1 ($72.50)
Hero ($100)
MP2 ($18.50)
MP3 ($125.15)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls $1, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $5</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls $5, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, UTG folds.

Flop: ($12.50) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $9</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to $24</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero ?

Re: [100nl] AA facing huge flop raise, shove or fold?
 

I hate this spot...With an unknown villain it makes it a tougher call. However, I've noticed that when someone is only single tabling that they are more often a worse player than someone playing 4 tabling (that might just be an awful/irrelevant/variant observation by me).
It's a tough call. I'd fold it often just because we haven't seen him play enough, but if I was having a bad day I'd probably push and then cuss at my mom upttairs.

Re: [100nl] AA facing huge flop raise, shove or fold?
 

There are too many overpairs and flush draws with overcards that you have beat. He would probably flat call a flopped joint or maybe even a set. Single tablers are generally impatient in contrast to others so he could even be raising 77/88. I vote shove.

Re: [100nl] AA facing huge flop raise, shove or fold?
 

It has to look blatant you have a very strong overpair, yet he doesn't seem to care. In fact, his bet looks sized for you to reraise all-in. You holding the Ace diamonds strongly cuts down on the possibility he's being aggressive with a flush draw. So what are you beating? KK and QQ *maybe*. Most likely he's hit a set. I'd fold unless I had a good reason to think he was an awful player, or was on tilt [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: [100nl] AA facing huge flop raise, shove or fold?
 

"It has to look blatant you have a very strong overpair, yet he doesn't seem to care."


Or he's thinking 'I put him on AK.' It's a random unknown at 100 NL. He's a spazztard until proven otherwise IMO.

Re: [100nl] AA facing huge flop raise, shove or fold?
 

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Or he's thinking 'I put him on AK.' It's a random unknown at 100 NL. He's a spazztard until proven otherwise IMO.

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Well, I did say I'd fold unless I had good reason to think he was awful...so I guess I give a lot more respect to unknowns than you! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: [100nl] AA facing huge flop raise, shove or fold?
 

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Or he's thinking 'I put him on AK.' It's a random unknown at 100 NL. He's a spazztard until proven otherwise IMO.

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Well, I did say I'd fold unless I had good reason to think he was awful...so I guess I give a lot more respect to unknowns than you! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Your name is appropriate you random 100 NL spewtard!! [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

Re: [100nl] AA facing huge flop raise, shove or fold?
 

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It has to look blatant you have a very strong overpair

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I dissagree with that. Hero's bet could just as easily be overcards, it's just a standard CB.

Still, it's a tough dessicsion OOP against a complete unkown. Real tough.

Don't like stacking off against an unkown, but without knowing how he plays there could still be a lot of hands we beat here.

LOL, not much help, sorry.

Re: [100nl] AA facing huge flop raise, shove or fold?
 

I'm a little confused as to where you are getting this read from. What about preflop raise in MP and c-bet reduces his range to KK+?

Re: [100nl] AA facing huge flop raise, shove or fold?
 

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There are too many overpairs and flush draws with overcards that you have beat. He would probably flat call a flopped joint or maybe even a set. Single tablers are generally impatient in contrast to others so he could even be raising 77/88. I vote shove.

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Yeah, shove is probably the best action, just hate doing it blind.
The fact that I stacked off in similar possitions a couple times yestreday is probably afecting my thought process.
[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: [100nl] AA facing huge flop raise, shove or fold?
 

IM thinking of taking 2 lines. Either call and check then turn to watch him put himself AI on turn but if an A comes on turn he might shutdown.

Or reraise AI and calls.

Either way he has KK,QQ many more times then he has a set.

Re: [100nl] AA facing huge flop raise, shove or fold?
 

Make it $60.

Re: [100nl] AA facing huge flop raise, shove or fold?
 

Here's a takeaway from this hand that is getting lost, I think. We're seriously considering whether or not to continue the hand with AA. It's a tough spot. Serious consideration is warranted. So, ask yourself how often you would raise this flop if you were MP3? Probably not enough. There just aren't many hands that can continue here once you've started to threaten getting all-in.

Re: [100nl] AA facing huge flop raise, shove or fold?
 

Hero has 63% Equity vs a range of QQ-55, 87s, and K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].


I take out KK since I figure he would reraise preflop. But even if we give him just 55,66,99 and QQ Hero still has 44% equity. I really don't think it's close. To fold here we are saying 'ZOMG he can only be raising me with a set!!'


And if that is now considered the standard for a random unknown than R.I.P online poker for you have died.

Re: [100nl] AA facing huge flop raise, shove or fold?
 

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Here's a takeaway from this hand that is getting lost, I think. We're seriously considering whether or not to continue the hand with AA. It's a tough spot. Serious consideration is warranted. So, ask yourself how often you would raise this flop if you were MP3? Probably not enough. There just aren't many hands that can continue here once you've started to threaten getting all-in.

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This is stupid because we aren't MP3 and if we were then AA is an easy stack off vs. us.

Re: [100nl] AA facing huge flop raise, shove or fold?
 

...snip...
This is stupid because we aren't MP3 and if we were then AA is an easy stack off vs. us.
...snip...

I'm sorry, I'm not sure I follow that last part.

I'm not saying we have AA in MP3. Is that what you thought? I'm saying that if we were MP3, we should raise a lot on a board like this because it is very difficult for MP2 to continue even with strong hands. We don't particularly need a hand to raise here. We would rarely stack off, because mostly we wouldn't have the goods. When we are saying, "woe is me, what should I do with AA?" we should also turn it around and think is this a place where I can attack were I the villain because mostly he doesn't have AA. That said, maybe you still think I'm full of crap, which is fair enough. wouldn't be the first time.

Re: [100nl] AA facing huge flop raise, shove or fold?
 

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Make it $60.

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That will commit us anyway. Push or call, c/rAI any turn seems better to me.

Re: [100nl] AA facing huge flop raise, shove or fold?
 

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...snip...
This is stupid because we aren't MP3 and if we were then AA is an easy stack off vs. us.
...snip...

I'm sorry, I'm not sure I follow that last part.

I'm not saying we have AA in MP3. Is that what you thought? I'm saying that if we were MP3, we should raise a lot on a board like this because it is very difficult for MP2 to continue even with strong hands. We don't particularly need a hand to raise here. We would rarely stack off, because mostly we wouldn't have the goods. When we are saying, "woe is me, what should I do with AA?" we should also turn it around and think is this a place where I can attack were I the villain because mostly he doesn't have AA. That said, maybe you still think I'm full of crap, which is fair enough. wouldn't be the first time.

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Most villains would not consider laying down an overpair here. If I tried raising a c-bet like this on random boards often just to put villains in tight spots like this, then I'd go broke quickly at NL50.

Or put another way, against us weak-tight 2+2ers there is way more fold equity playing back against a cbet than versus the typical NL50/100 player. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: [100nl] AA facing huge flop raise, shove or fold?
 

[ QUOTE ]
...snip...
This is stupid because we aren't MP3 and if we were then AA is an easy stack off vs. us.
...snip...

I'm sorry, I'm not sure I follow that last part.

I'm not saying we have AA in MP3. Is that what you thought? I'm saying that if we were MP3, we should raise a lot on a board like this because it is very difficult for MP2 to continue even with strong hands. We don't particularly need a hand to raise here. We would rarely stack off, because mostly we wouldn't have the goods. When we are saying, "woe is me, what should I do with AA?" we should also turn it around and think is this a place where I can attack were I the villain because mostly he doesn't have AA. That said, maybe you still think I'm full of crap, which is fair enough. wouldn't be the first time.

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The thing is that you are saying that we should raise light in MP3's position, which I agree with. However, the same logic dictates that it is now time to get it in with AA since MP3 should be raising a wide range. Thus, we should definitely be willing to felt AA in this spot.

Also, I realize $60 commits us jetsetboy. I want to felt this hand. Personally I would lean toward a smaller raise than a shove because I think our opponent is more prone to making a mistake with that raise.

Re: [100nl] AA facing huge flop raise, shove or fold?
 

Appears to be another vote for full or crap. I can accept that. I don't believe I have to like it, though the liking part is still caught up in litigation. It may turn out that I'm full of crap and have to like it through some travesty of jurisprudence. I think there's some sort of ankle bracelet for that sort of thing, or so I'm told.

...snip...
Most villains would not consider laying down an overpair here. If I tried raising a c-bet like this on random boards often just to put villains in tight spots like this, then I'd go broke quickly at NL50.
...snip...

I don't really expect most villains to lay down overpairs here either. I am also not proposing that you raise here 100% of the time across your whole range and go off into the night willie nillie to find your inner lag. I am suggesting that you raise here quite a bit because a lot of times MP3 can't call even though his hand is better than yours.

I'm a much better small pot player than I am a big pot player. I look at pots where I ended up cursing how I had to fold TT even though I thought I might have the best hand and try to play the other side. This is one of those hands. You have incredible leverage in position with this sort of board. This is one of those places where you can pick up an extra pot with 22 or KQs or QJs where you might otherwise fold.

Re: [100nl] AA facing huge flop raise, shove or fold?
 

Yeah, against me you should be getting the money in. I would then curse you and fold or show up with a set. I'd play both the same.

And against someone who is going to raise you in position, you would be much more likely to commit with an overpair in this position. Once you extend the villains range beyond sets, it's going to be right to just ship it in in a lot of cases.

Re: [100nl] AA facing huge flop raise, shove or fold?
 

CalledDownLight, the more I think about this hand the more I think a push &gt;&gt;&gt; $60 raise. A $60 raise with $40 left give him good odds and implied odds to call with a FD or a combo draw and can let us facing a very though decision on a non blank turn (diamond or 9/6). Some turns (9/8/7 diamond) might kill the action when we are against another overpair. A push will deny his positional advantage. Furthermore I want to be able to push with any kind of combo draw (including NFD+overs) here so I need to push with KK+/a set. QQ is a though decision I think. JJ/TT would be a fold or a call and a c/f against most of the vilain.

Re: [100nl] AA facing huge flop raise, shove or fold?
 

I just realized the title says 'facing huge flop raise' when it's not even 3x.

Re: [100nl] AA facing huge flop raise, shove or fold?
 

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CalledDownLight, the more I think about this hand the more I think a push &gt;&gt;&gt; $60 raise. A $60 raise with $40 left give him good odds and implied odds to call with a FD or a combo draw and can let us facing a very though decision on a non blank turn (diamond or 9/6). Some turns (9/8/7 diamond) might kill the action when we are against another overpair. A push will deny his positional advantage. Furthermore I want to be able to push with any kind of combo draw (including NFD+overs) here so I need to push with KK+/a set. QQ is a though decision I think. JJ/TT would be a fold or a call and a c/f against most of the vilain.

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I make it $60 with straights and sets here too so I guess thats where I'm coming from. If he calls then I'm shoving all turns. If he calls and then folds any turn then he's just burning money.

Re: [100nl] AA facing huge flop raise, shove or fold?
 

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CalledDownLight, the more I think about this hand the more I think a push &gt;&gt;&gt; $60 raise. A $60 raise with $40 left give him good odds and implied odds to call with a FD or a combo draw and can let us facing a very though decision on a non blank turn (diamond or 9/6). Some turns (9/8/7 diamond) might kill the action when we are against another overpair. A push will deny his positional advantage. Furthermore I want to be able to push with any kind of combo draw (including NFD+overs) here so I need to push with KK+/a set. QQ is a though decision I think. JJ/TT would be a fold or a call and a c/f against most of the vilain.

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I make it $60 with straights and sets here too so I guess thats where I'm coming from. If he calls then I'm shoving all turns. If he calls and then folds any turn then he's just burning money.

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As long as we bet the exact same amount with AA and sets/FD/straights I think it's fine. We just have to be consistent.

Re: [100nl] AA facing huge flop raise, shove or fold?
 

I'd like to pop it up to $55.