10/20 flop a little bit of everything in multiway pot
 

I haven't been playing much lately and I'm feeling a bit rusty. This is one hand from today I still think is sort of neat; heads-up it would play itself but things are much different 4-ways... No line really stands out here, what do you guys think?

Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $10/$20
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $1291
UTG+1: $690
CO: $2159.50
Button: $1907
Hero: $5618.50
BB: $1982

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG calls, <font color="#cc0000">UTG+1 raises to $90</font>, CO folds, Button calls, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG calls.

Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($380, 4 players)
Hero....

Re: 10/20 flop a little bit of everything in multiway pot
 

i usually check and see what happens.

Re: 10/20 flop a little bit of everything in multiway pot
 

Lets say it's checked to an aggro button who pots it.

Re: 10/20 flop a little bit of everything in multiway pot
 

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Lets say it's checked to an aggro button who pots it.

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I would just check-raise with this hand; personally, I'm not letting it go regardless of the action on the flop, so better c/r here and get a bit of fold equity rather than lead out and maybe have to make some weird decisions if a K hits the turn, etc

Re: 10/20 flop a little bit of everything in multiway pot
 

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Lets say it's checked to an aggro button who pots it.

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I would just check-raise with this hand; personally, I'm not letting it go regardless of the action on the flop, so better c/r here and get a bit of fold equity rather than lead out and maybe have to make some weird decisions if a K hits the turn, etc

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I would c/r an aggro button definitely, but I would fold it it goes bet-call-raise or some similar permutation. you're pretty much always in reasonably good shape up and down against one opponent and always in reasonably bad shape against more.

Re: 10/20 flop a little bit of everything in multiway pot
 

Checkraise seems fine, you can be in bad shape but I like to gamble.

Dont like betting out,
if you get a caller the stack sizes give you very tricky decisions on the turn,
not what you are aiming for oop.

The checkraise kills the position problem, makes the hand easy to play.

Re: 10/20 flop a little bit of everything in multiway pot
 

How much fold equity do you think we could get from just leading for $300 or less here? It gives the short stack (preflop raiser) the ability to raise (shove) and puts any deeper stack in a very tough spot for a relatively cheap price (if he shoves).

Re: 10/20 flop a little bit of everything in multiway pot
 

Am I the only one here that would pot that flop?

Re: 10/20 flop a little bit of everything in multiway pot
 

i dont see anything wrong with leading out.

bet the pot.

theres no way your drawing dead in a worst case scenario. chances are, your drawing pretty decent if you dont have the best hand on the flop.

Re: 10/20 flop a little bit of everything in multiway pot
 

oops, didnt notice button called pre flop. that changes things for sure.

gee cmyr, how the hell did you get yourself into this one?

well, if you know the button is aggro and he's going to bet, then of course check raise........but the others would know he's agro too and could be waiting just for that and you could get caught in the middle.

i think a check on the flop is the more prudent play. hands are like buses, just wait and another one will come.

this hand is filled with too many question marks. when there is too many question marks, i like to sway towards avoidance. possibly getting off this hand is not going to ruin your career.

check and see what happens and then flip a coin. its real close.

Re: 10/20 flop a little bit of everything in multiway pot
 

i dont think there is much in it between betting and checking the flop - if i was UTG, i would check and see if the PFR bets so i can get some free information off the other players, if they both fold its standard from here. if the button had raised and i act first i simply lead out and make it very hard for the middle 2 players to call with the PFR to act

as played i marginally prefer leading out, mainly for information, but also as this is exactly how i would play a set

Re: 10/20 flop a little bit of everything in multiway pot
 

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i marginally prefer leading out, mainly for information, but also as this is exactly how i would play a set

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so you lead out for "information", and someone pots it, then what?

Re: 10/20 flop a little bit of everything in multiway pot
 

i think my line would be "POT POT POT" probably because im a sick aggro [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: 10/20 flop a little bit of everything in multiway pot
 

I would prefer leading out 60-70 % of the pot if it suits your playing style. (I play several hands with 60-70 % bets as well when money is deep enough.) You can commit all of your chips against one opponent.

If someone calls your bit "weaky" bet you can bet any turn and take many pots down without showing a hand.

You can also go for check-raise if some opponents have overaggressive tendencies. Against typical 10/20 field I would prefer leading. I probably lead around 70 % of the time and go for check-raise around 30 % of the time. If you check and action gets awful heavy you can sometimes find a fold.

Re: 10/20 flop a little bit of everything in multiway pot
 

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i marginally prefer leading out, mainly for information, but also as this is exactly how i would play a set

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so you lead out for "information", and someone pots it, then what?

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depends who "someone" is

Re: 10/20 flop a little bit of everything in multiway pot
 

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Lets say it's checked to an aggro button who pots it.

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This seems like a good hand to lose a lot of money on. You don't have top pair, no ten and aren't drawing to a nut straight. Most importantly you are out of position.

People have made good arguments for both raising and checking the flop. But to me it seems about even, and since you are OOP I'd check. Unless one of these players has a big exploitable leak you could take advantage of, then I'd tailor my play that way.

As played, probably best to just fold. The button while aggro probably has at least a king, knowing that he'll probably get called by at least one player. And the caller, who is OOP, might have a difficult time getting paid if they hit a draw. Although I have to admit, I'd probably checkraise him and then push any turn.

Re: 10/20 flop a little bit of everything in multiway pot
 

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I would c/r an aggro button definitely, but I would fold it it goes bet-call-raise or some similar permutation. you're pretty much always in reasonably good shape up and down against one opponent and always in reasonably bad shape against more.

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You are actually killing a someone willing to play fairly light even if you include sets:
http://www.propokertools.com/simulator/s...amp;h4=&amp;h5=

I also ran some permutations on the ranges that you might encounter at a reasonably non-nitty table, and I can't really find anything that you are as bad as even money.

So I change my answer. As long as this isn't a nitty table with a low average pot size, I'm dying to c/r. (At a nitty table you probably can lead on the flop and take it down.)

Re: 10/20 flop a little bit of everything in multiway pot
 

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Lets say it's checked to an aggro button who pots it.

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This seems like a good hand to lose a lot of money on. You don't have top pair, no ten and aren't drawing to a nut straight. Most importantly you are out of position.

.....

As played, probably best to just fold. The button while aggro probably has at least a king, knowing that he'll probably get called by at least one player. And the caller, who is OOP, might have a difficult time getting paid if they hit a draw. Although I have to admit, I'd probably checkraise him and then push any turn.

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Do you really give aggro button credit for the set? Or top two + nut flush draw or monster draw?

When you play against aggressive regulars you really have to play also other hands than monsters. Omaha is gambling game and this perfect spot to gamble. You have to push these spots to get action (G-bucks) when you flop monster. You also have sometimes to take stand not to get run over all the time.

After check-raise being out of position does not matter any longer. Pot will be very close to all-in and Button will usually shove unless he folds.

Re: 10/20 flop a little bit of everything in multiway pot
 

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oops, didnt notice button called pre flop. that changes things for sure.

gee cmyr, how the hell did you get yourself into this one?

well, if you know the button is aggro and he's going to bet, then of course check raise........but the others would know he's agro too and could be waiting just for that and you could get caught in the middle.

i think a check on the flop is the more prudent play. hands are like buses, just wait and another one will come .

this hand is filled with too many question marks. when there is too many question marks, i like to sway towards avoidance. possibly getting off this hand is not going to ruin your career.

check and see what happens and then flip a coin. its real close.

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But if you keep letting the buses go by, you'll never get to where you want to go. Playing poker, the destination is obviously the money.

If there is an agro button involved, I'd be looking to c/r most of the time here. Our hand does well against everything but the biggest of monsters. Of course, if others are looking to get in the pot we're probably not going to be in the best shape, but given that no one else at the table is that deep, we'll be committed with a check/raise and just have to cross our fingers.

I think leading with a pot-sized bet may lead to a multiway situation where people are making calls with various weakish draws, but collectively they leave us drawing thin and I don't perceive any real fold equity in it. Definitely a check/raise here the majority of the time I think and of course as Petteri mentioned it's always good for image when we do gamble a bit. However, image is definitely not a primary consideration because I think we can win this hand without a showdown a reasonable amount of the time.

Re: 10/20 flop a little bit of everything in multiway pot
 

I think Buttons check-raise calling range is something like KK**,JJ**,88**,Ac*c**,KJ**,AQT9. Hero is 53% favorite even against that range. But I think Button will fold at least 25 % of the time if not more.

http://www.propokertools.com/simulator/s...amp;h4=&amp;h5=

Re: 10/20 flop a little bit of everything in multiway pot
 

So as pete and others pointed out, this is a hand that plays great against one player but is often in awful shape against two players, sometimes drawing to a 3-out gutshot.

The problem I see with a c/r is that UTG for sure is going to be checking alot of his strong hands to the PFR, and even the PFR himself may check to the button (okay not that often, but it isn't impossible) and so I can't read too too much into those checks. I sort of like the weak-lead line, since if I get a raise and a call I can fold but if I get action in one spot I can commit or bet any turn.

I think the only other line that hasn't been discussed is c/c the flop and pot any turn if it's hu... this is getting a bit fancy, though. Against a very aggro player it might even be correct to c/r (not that there's much $$ left) the turn if he's going to fire a second barrel with weak draws etc that I want in but that might fold.

Re: 10/20 flop a little bit of everything in multiway pot
 

I think you should check raise anyway, and if both UTG and button have a hand they really want to play against all that action, AND their specific hands have you in very bad shaped (one of them has to have nfd and the other 2pair+) then chalk it up as a cooler or try to hit your gutshot.

Re: 10/20 flop a little bit of everything in multiway pot
 

i'll tell you guys what, this hand has some sort of value in different ways. if its early in the session and you plan on playing for a while, then you can use this hand for a motivation play to show what your willing to go off with. i think if your going to play the hand.......then you got to go all the way.........or fold. one or the other.

i know for a fact that bennyamine would go off with this hand 24/7 and he's considered one of the best, so would hansen.

but then again, they are also the type that you see sitting there "sitting out" and you point your mouse at theyre seat and it shows their name with a "0" underneath it.

not saying its wrong, it just depends on your style and what you are trying to acomplish in the over all picture of the session.

i think guys like larslusak possibly dont go off with this hand because i never see the guy sitting on "0" yet he is also the one who is always sitting at the 300/600 ready to go. you never hear about him with money problems.

this hand is close. this hand is also one of those that you can find yourself in very bad shape with not much invested from the get go.

play at your own risk tolerance.

Re: 10/20 flop a little bit of everything in multiway pot
 

I c/r if utg or utg+1 pot, also if button flatcall, if all check to him and he pot, i really need more player info. Im no nit but folding might be best.

Re: 10/20 flop a little bit of everything in multiway pot
 

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I c/r if utg or utg+1 pot, also if button flatcall, if all check to him and he pot, i really need more player info. Im no nit but folding might be best.

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yes, exactly. i agree 100% with both your lines.

Re: 10/20 flop a little bit of everything in multiway pot
 

Cymr, I'm sure I saw this hand go down. It was on iPoker, wasn't it?
Can't remember who had what - you're not GothicLolita, are you?

Re: 10/20 flop a little bit of everything in multiway pot
 

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Cymr, I'm sure I saw this hand go down. It was on iPoker, wasn't it?
Can't remember who had what - you're not GothicLolita, are you?

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i'm actually boycotting ipoker until they stop sending me wire transfers in euros and making me pay the [censored] exchange. and no, I'm def. not GothicLolita.

Re: 10/20 flop a little bit of everything in multiway pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
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Cymr, I'm sure I saw this hand go down. It was on iPoker, wasn't it?
Can't remember who had what - you're not GothicLolita, are you?

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i'm actually boycotting ipoker until they stop sending me wire transfers in euros and making me pay the [censored] exchange. and no, I'm def. not GothicLolita.

[/ QUOTE ]


Hahahaha. GothicLolita seems one of the best iPoker PLO players, though yesterday I saw him stack off in position after heavy multiway action holding AA73 with the 7-high flush draw on a flop very much like this.

So what network was this, then?

Re: 10/20 flop a little bit of everything in multiway pot
 

I lead this for sure.

Re: 10/20 flop a little bit of everything in multiway pot
 

If I was playing low-limit passive donks, I'd lead this, but in a 10/20 game, unless you've got a real fishy lineup, I like the C/R. Someone will usually have a piece of this and the hand's much easier to play if you can just shove everything in on the flop rather than leaving yourself with a difficult decision on the turn. Obviously, as Pete stated, if we get too much action after we check this, we can give this up.

Re: 10/20 flop a little bit of everything in multiway pot
 

Getting it in here multiway os obvs really bad.

Re: 10/20 flop a little bit of everything in multiway pot
 

it's not a big secret, jimm. Cmyr is bbbooo.

Re: 10/20 flop a little bit of everything in multiway pot
 

I like a repop pre to ~300 and if UTG+1 shortie shoves and button calls behind you can pot it, calling is fina as well though (with the UTG limper etc.). flop I think is a c/f actually.

Re: 10/20 flop a little bit of everything in multiway pot
 

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i'll tell you guys what, this hand has some sort of value in different ways. if its early in the session and you plan on playing for a while, then you can use this hand for a motivation play to show what your willing to go off with. i think if your going to play the hand.......then you got to go all the way.........or fold. one or the other.

i know for a fact that bennyamine would go off with this hand 24/7 and he's considered one of the best, so would hansen.

but then again, they are also the type that you see sitting there "sitting out" and you point your mouse at theyre seat and it shows their name with a "0" underneath it.

not saying its wrong, it just depends on your style and what you are trying to acomplish in the over all picture of the session.

i think guys like larslusak possibly dont go off with this hand because i never see the guy sitting on "0" yet he is also the one who is always sitting at the 300/600 ready to go. you never hear about him with money problems.

this hand is close. this hand is also one of those that you can find yourself in very bad shape with not much invested from the get go.

play at your own risk tolerance.

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are you some sort of awesome troll account?

Re: 10/20 flop a little bit of everything in multiway pot
 

A 3bet here would make much more sense if we were in position. If we get multiple callers it'll be hard to cbet the flops we totally miss, and if UTG1 or the button /does/ have aces we've got a really bad hand for it.

Re: 10/20 flop a little bit of everything in multiway pot
 

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The problem I see with a c/r is that UTG for sure is going to be checking alot of his strong hands to the PFR, and even the PFR himself may check to the button (okay not that often, but it isn't impossible) and so I can't read too too much into those checks. I sort of like the weak-lead line, since if I get a raise and a call I can fold but if I get action in one spot I can commit or bet any turn.

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Agreed.

Re: 10/20 flop a little bit of everything in multiway pot
 

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I think the only other line that hasn't been discussed is c/c the flop and pot any turn if it's hu... this is getting a bit fancy, though.

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The check-call suffers from the same problems as leading out. You might get some callers that you don't want, like the ace high flush or top pair or straight draw with a ten.

Re: 10/20 flop a little bit of everything in multiway pot
 

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Getting it in here multiway os obvs really bad.

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If you were to c/r the button and then it becomes multiway that is obviously probably bad.

However, if you c/r what are the actually chances that the UTG or UTG+1 ride along or fold? I haven't done the maths, but aren't the chances of them having a bad hand (for you) fairly slim? (And would the shortstack really be giving away free cards on the drawey flop?)

Re: 10/20 flop a little bit of everything in multiway pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Cymr, I'm sure I saw this hand go down. It was on iPoker, wasn't it?
Can't remember who had what - you're not GothicLolita, are you?

[/ QUOTE ]


i'm actually boycotting ipoker until they stop sending me wire transfers in euros and making me pay the [censored] exchange. and no, I'm def. not GothicLolita.

[/ QUOTE ]


Hahahaha. GothicLolita seems one of the best iPoker PLO players, though yesterday I saw him stack off in position after heavy multiway action holding AA73 with the 7-high flush draw on a flop very much like this.

So what network was this, then?

[/ QUOTE ]

Gothic Lolita is terrible imo