FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board
 

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $25/$50
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
BALTOSTAR: $4470
UTG+1: $1275
MP1: $2250
MP2: $2405
MP3: $3875
CO: $3680
Button: $4065
SB: $5370
BB: $4330

Pre-flop: (9 players) BALTOSTAR is UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
BALTOSTAR calls, UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB checks.

Flop: 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($300, 6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">BALTOSTAR bets $200</font>, UTG+1 folds, CO calls, 3 folds.

Turn: 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($700, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BALTOSTAR bets $350</font>, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises all-in $3430</font>, BALTOSTAR

Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board
 

nice limpRR [censored] yourself.

Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board
 

Crying-fold

Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board
 

[ QUOTE ]
nice limpRR [censored] yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you considered anger management therapy at a respected private clinic ?

Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board
 

agree with shaun [censored] deeb

Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
nice limpRR [censored] yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you considered anger management therapy at a respected private clinic ?

[/ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] balto

Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board
 

my advice:

lol

Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board
 

CALL SO FAST HE'S BLUFFING.

Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board
 

gobboboy,

I'm still not sure if your chip outlay is out of proportion to a reasonable expectation.

...newb

Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board
 

[ QUOTE ]
CALL SO FAST HE'S BLUFFING.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have been reading a number of your well-thought-out, detailed, descriptive, and informative posts and I'm wondering if you are you aware of the "Caps Lock" key ? It's directly to the left of the "A" key on most keyboards. It's easy to accidentally hit this key and enter something called "caps lock mode" so that everything you type comes out entirely in capitals. The "Caps Lock" key is what is known as a toggle: if caps lock mode is on, you can just tap the key once to turn it off, and then you'll be able to express yourself just like everyone else and you won't feel so different.

Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board
 

NO ONE CARES ABOUT YOUR RETARDED HANDS.

Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board
 

gobbo, i've IM'd you about this enoguh times that i'm jsut gonna post it now..

quit being a douche! it's not like you.

Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board
 

I think this is an interesting hand.

It would seem most likely that villain has walked into a nice combo-draw on the turn and is semi-bluffing. QJ JT seem likely, especially QdJd. Also, T8 98, 87, especially 8d7d. (I suppose AdXd is also possible.)

However, the mirror is also reasonable: villain made a nice hand on the flop (with TT 99 QT Q9 T9) and now puts hero on walking into a combo draw and is a bit over-zealous in protecting his hand.

If the former scenario, a call by hero would be especially +cEV since hero has two of the four Ks and the Kd.

I think the questions are:

1. How likely is the latter scenario ?
2. Are there any other hands we can put villain on ?

Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board
 

Baltosar: 2/3 of your decisions this hand were incorrect.

The fact that we have to talk about your 4th is a result of your poor play from other spots in the hand.

Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board
 

Why did you open limp?

Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board
 

Balto,
Do you only lrr really good hands?

Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board
 

fold

Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board
 

Do you have a read of villain? He bet on the draw? Is he tight or loose? How's your image?

"Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $25/$50"

Is this a tournament or cash game?

In tournaments, I call. (your weak turn bet would see a lot of loose shoves from draw+pair or combo draws, villain didn't put you on KK)

In cash games, I fold.

Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board
 

[ QUOTE ]
In tournaments, I call. (your weak turn bet would see a lot of loose shoves from draw+pair or combo draws, villain didn't put you on KK)

In cash games, I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

what, why?

Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board
 

[ QUOTE ]
fold

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board
 

[ QUOTE ]
Baltosar: 2/3 of your decisions this hand were incorrect.

The fact that we have to talk about your 4th is a result of your poor play from other spots in the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you referring to ?

Limping big pairs in EP didn't yield results in this hand, but that doesn't mean it's always 100% wrong.

I assume you're not referring to the flop. I likely have the best hand, but the board's got some draw potential, and there's always 1Ps improving. I think hero has to bet or could be facing 4 opponents on turn with 4 cards out. Betting folds out draws, hands that could evolve into draws, and lesser pairs, but brings along TPTK and TPGK.

I don't like c/r turn b/c of all the plausible 2P sets out there. Checking gives a free card to a very drawy board. Bet could have been a bit bigger, but I don't think it's a disaster.

Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board
 

[ QUOTE ]
Limping big pairs in EP didn't yield results in this hand, but that doesn't mean it's always 100% wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, with deep stacks it's almost always 100% wrong to open-limp big pairs. I only do it on very few occasions when stacks are shallower and people are pushing pre-flop like every hand in order to survive. So, raise PF!

But now that you put yourself in this situation, just fold. Could be a combo-draw of course, but it definitely looks like two pair getting nervous.

Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Limping big pairs in EP didn't yield results in this hand, but that doesn't mean it's always 100% wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, with deep stacks it's almost always 100% wrong to open-limp big pairs. I only do it on very few occasions when stacks are shallower and people are pushing pre-flop like every hand in order to survive. So, raise PF!


[/ QUOTE ]

I like to mix-in big pair limps at a rate of about 8%. I use Harrington's watch rule: if the second hand on my wristwatch (which is not the exact time) is within 1st 5 secs, I limp. Unexploitable obviously.

Seems to me that people tend to play excessively tight in the 1st hour of the FTP $750K/$1M and big pairs have a lower avg expectation than later on. Limping is considerably below that avg expectation, obviously, but I think that doing it very occasionally adds the right kind of variance.

[ QUOTE ]
But now that you put yourself in this situation, just fold. Could be a combo-draw of course, but it definitely looks like two pair getting nervous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, so you lean towards scenario 2. I'm trying to get an idea for the approximate ratio of the two scenarios.

Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board
 

lame hand dummy

Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board
 

[ QUOTE ]

I like to mix-in big pair limps at a rate of about 8%. I use Harrington's watch rule: if the second hand on my wristwatch (which is not the exact time) is within 1st 5 secs, I limp. Unexploitable obviously.

Seems to me that people tend to play excessively tight in the 1st hour of the FTP $750K/$1M and big pairs have a lower avg expectation than later on. Limping is considerably below that avg expectation, obviously, but I think that doing it very occasionally adds the right kind of variance.


[/ QUOTE ]

Unexploitable, yes, but since your opponents normally don't pay enough attention, it's a waste. Focus more on maximizing value than trying to be unexploitable. Also, if you play tight from early positions and open-raise all hands you play, that's pretty much as unexploitable as it gets.

Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board
 

The psychology of this thread is more interesting than the hand. Balto posts a hand that he had to have known would engender some hostility, given how people feel about his other posts. Then he gets the hostility in spades. If anybody read this thread in isolation, they would think that you guys are a bunch of [censored].

Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board
 

[ QUOTE ]
The psychology of this thread is more interesting than the hand. Balto posts a hand that he had to have known would engender some hostility, given how people feel about his other posts. Then he gets the hostility in spades. If anybody read this thread in isolation, they would think that you guys are a bunch of [censored].

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe the reason why ppl are angry at taking this line is b/c if he just raised pf he probably wouldnt be in this situation where he has no idea where he is in the hand. And althought SOME ppl play tight in the 1st hr of the 750k/1mil, there are plenty of idiots that are ready to stack off like 400bb deep with TP in these mtts. If anything, I think that your reasoning is very passive(incorrect?) in the fact that you are trying to play small ball when there are lots of donkeys out there at the moment that are just looking to give their money away here. I mean if you raised pf and got a call from QJ/KQ/Qx, instead of being put in a tough turn situation, you could be closer to getting it ai and have a very easy decision. I mean you can even make a 5-6bb raise IMO from EP and get a caller in the 1st hour from someone who "doesnt believe you"

Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board
 

First of all, there is nothing wrong with the limp as such. I am not sure if it is the right play for Baltostar, since it makes things tricky postflop if you don't get raised, and there are also problems where an LRR may turn your hand face up, but if people just fold if they miss their set, you can make the same move without a big pair. There are also problems with open raising big hands in early position.

Obviously, I am a limper, and don't think it is necessary to flame people for not always raising in this spot.

When you play the hand 5-handed in a limped pot, there is a good chance someone caught something.

I am not sure I like the small bet on the turn. How would people play that?

When you get raised, villain could have 2-pair, a set, a draw, or top pair. I think this is a close decision.

I really think people are going overboard with the Baltostar abuse here. This is an interesting hand, regardless if Baltostar misplayed it. Also, the preflop and initial turn bets may be errors, but they are not huge errors.

I really think this is a reasonable HSMTT hand, and it is OK to have bad players post hands here. Baltostar has annoyed people with his strategy posts, but I don't see anything wrong with this post.

I also think that Baltostar is not the one who comes out looking like a jerk in this thread.

Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board
 

[ QUOTE ]
Balto,
Do you only lrr really good hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board
 

[ QUOTE ]
I believe the reason why ppl are angry at taking this line is b/c if he just raised pf he probably wouldnt be in this situation where he has no idea where he is in the hand. And althought SOME ppl play tight in the 1st hr of the 750k/1mil, there are plenty of idiots that are ready to stack off like 400bb deep with TP in these mtts. If anything, I think that your reasoning is very passive(incorrect?) in the fact that you are trying to play small ball when there are lots of donkeys out there at the moment that are just looking to give their money away here. I mean if you raised pf and got a call from QJ/KQ/Qx, instead of being put in a tough turn situation, you could be closer to getting it ai and have a very easy decision. I mean you can even make a 5-6bb raise IMO from EP and get a caller in the 1st hour from someone who "doesnt believe you"

[/ QUOTE ]

The guys who are looking to stack-off early are precisely why I think it's good to add this type of variance.

Sure, you can get a call raising in EP, but most likely you then just take down a small pot on the flop, or the turn.

Let's do some guesstimating assuming we're on the 1st hand of the tourney:

A reasonable expectation for an EP big pair might be just the blinds 60% of the time, a single caller 30% of the time, multiple callers 10% of the time. Single caller, you maybe get another 40% of the pot post-flop, on avg. Multiple callers, another 60%, on avg.

So, (.6 * 30) + (.3 * 170 * 1.4) + (.1 * 240 * 1.6) =

18 + 71.5 + 38.4 = 128

So an avg payoff is about 128/3000 = 4.3% of your stack, which is a good bread-and-butter small-ball payoff.

But by limping big pairs in EP in the 1st hour, you can stack people off pre-flop. It happens more than one would think. You get things like JJ re-raising TT and one of them pushes your 4-bet. I've also seen AK get it all in.

Used sparingly, this move has a great reward/risk ratio, taking the risk as a reasonable expectation for EP KK of about 6.5x BB.

Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board
 

In your equation, arent you pretty much getting it AI pf when there is JJ and TT in the hand anyways (or at least a decent amount). Also, I think the same with AK. I mean im not saying its a terrible play, I just dont think that it pays off enough to make limping effective early in an mtt (unless its a very aggressive table).
I think you can make std raise and by ok, I was just saying that you COULD raise to 5-6xbb and get a call early bc ppl are that bad.
Also, you say that you get optimal result when people have huge hands that they might not be getting away from pf. The real question is whether or not you think the table is good enough for ppl to get away from JJ/TT/AK pf early in an mtt.

Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board
 

[ QUOTE ]
In tournaments, I call. (your weak turn bet would see a lot of loose shoves from draw+pair or combo draws, villain didn't put you on KK)

In cash games, I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

meh this is reversed IMO...nobody bluffs here in donkaments but that bet in a cash game is such a bluff inducer

Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In tournaments, I call. (your weak turn bet would see a lot of loose shoves from draw+pair or combo draws, villain didn't put you on KK)

In cash games, I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

meh this is reversed IMO...nobody bluffs here in donkaments but that bet in a cash game is such a bluff inducer

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah this logic seemed really odd, still awaiting his explanation, though

Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In tournaments, I call. (your weak turn bet would see a lot of loose shoves from draw+pair or combo draws, villain didn't put you on KK)

In cash games, I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

meh this is reversed IMO...nobody bluffs here in donkaments but that bet in a cash game is such a bluff inducer

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah this logic seemed really odd, still awaiting his explanation, though

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume his logic is more based on taking somewhat more risk in tourneys to accumulate, because you won't get as many opportunities as the blinds get higher.

Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In tournaments, I call. (your weak turn bet would see a lot of loose shoves from draw+pair or combo draws, villain didn't put you on KK)

In cash games, I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

meh this is reversed IMO...nobody bluffs here in donkaments but that bet in a cash game is such a bluff inducer

[/ QUOTE ]

Alright, let me explain, it's not necessarily what I think it should be right, but what I think from observations (or "experience").

Just for tournaments vs cash games, since I play live games in LA area, I encounter more "live donks" than most posters here. (Ironically, most things I discussed here, I discuss with live players, they almost always give me the opposite thinking vs online pros. That's why is very interesting to be in the middle. They say me "crazy and aggressive", you say me tight,nit, retard... I have no problem taking any titles as long as I can win pots from each group.) Basically, people are loose in tournaments and are super tight in cash games. In another word, most cash players soldem bluff $4K in cash games. (Yes, there are retards do that once they control a tight/weak table with big stacks in cash games) But in tournaments, players only lose a buy-in, they do a lot semi-bluffs, sometimes bad bluffs. From ourside, calling $3500 all-in with one pair on that scared board in cash game is very risky unless you have very reliable read ($4000 cash on the line in one hand). This sounds silly, but most cash players (ok, let's call them "donkey live players") do think this way - I only put in $650, let's not lose entire stack, pick another spot. Some may fold AA here. Live donks or whatever, that's the fact how they play and think. But when they come along and push,... they have it.

Tournament plays focus on building the stack, cash games focus on protecting bankroll, reducing risks...

========================
Talking about this hand, OP didn't give any read about the villain, which is important. PF limping is OK if OP thinks villain is LAG and tried to trap him (KK limp is bad IMO), but when OP bets $350 at the turn, what's the purpose of this bet? Trying to induce a bluff or build the pot in an "unsure way" - meaning not sure about his hand and will fold to a push?

Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board
 

walker, this is a live vs. online thing again. people are not bluffing here online in a big tournament because it's full of horrible sat qualifiers that will never ever fold an overpair. hence, you should. conversely, live, people are famous for folding too much, hence, vs. a good player underbetting to induce a bluff is the nuts.

Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board
 

[ QUOTE ]
vs. a good player underbetting to induce a bluff is the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand that from my plays online.

But in this hand, OP underbet $350 on the turn (assume he intended to do so to induce bluff), then villain's shove is a bluff? Where is the argument? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] With other reads, in tournaments, I call the shove. But in cash games, I can't. Aren't we on the same page? Or I'm confused?

=========================
OP,
You knew you were inducing a bluff? or you just picking up a comfortable number of $350 to bet on the turn and had no idea what to do about villain's shove?

Edit: from your posts, it appears you approach to the game with very strong mathematic analysis, which I like. But, if you put some reads into consideration, it's more powerful.

Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board
 

BALTOSTAR,

when YOU limp, what ARE your plans for the rest of preflop? would it be RIDICULOUS to say that you didn't have one AND WHEN people limped behind YOUR call, you realized how [censored] you were? his MOM might have something to say about his attitude, but listen to what gobbo SAID to YOU. if i WERE you, THE best thing you could do is to listen to the SMARTEST donkamenters (lol) who dispense knowledge to less fortunates like you everyday. BOY, you'd think you were IN THE know or something the way you manage to use 9 letters on a word when 3 will do. but trust me, it's the most pathetic thing in the WORLD.

IT WAS A JOKE.

Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board
 

[ QUOTE ]
BALTOSTAR,

when YOU limp, what ARE your plans for the rest of preflop? would it be RIDICULOUS to say that you didn't have one AND WHEN people limped behind YOUR call, you realized how [censored] you were? his MOM might have something to say about his attitude, but listen to what gobbo SAID to YOU. if i WERE you, THE best thing you could do is to listen to the SMARTEST donkamenters (lol) who dispense knowledge to less fortunates like you everyday. BOY, you'd think you were IN THE know or something the way you manage to use 9 letters on a word when 3 will do. but trust me, it's the most pathetic thing in the WORLD.

IT WAS A JOKE.

[/ QUOTE ]

May I suggest you add some fiber to your diet? Also: less dairy.

Re: FTP $750K : M=60 : KK OOP facing turn shove rr on scary board
 

[ QUOTE ]
OP,
You knew you were inducing a bluff? or you just picking up a comfortable number of $350 to bet on the turn and had no idea what to do about villain's shove?

Edit: from your posts, it appears you approach to the game with very strong mathematic analysis, which I like. But, if you put some reads into consideration, it's more powerful.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had no reads pre-flop. It's pretty early and I hadn't seen anyone make any gross mistakes.

When I limp big PP in EP it is not one of my goals to play post-flop with a bunch of limpers. If that happens, then I reduce my reasonable expectation for the hand way down.

With 5 opponents in the flop it's extremely likely that at least one player hit something they would want to play. The healthy flop bet was mainly to force out marginal hands like unpaired Ax that might benefit from a turn card.

On the turn, I felt it was still murky as to whether I had the best hand. The lead-out was to avoid giving a free card and to keep the pot size down (which can work if villain is also unsure if ahead/behind).

I knew 1/2 pot might look like I was on a draw, but I didn't see any really good way to play the turn. If you check, you give a freebie to draws, and you cede pot control to hands you're behind. Seems like people are saying I should have bet more ?

I wasn't trying to induce a bluff raise but given the board I knew one was possible. I was kinda surprised it was a shove.