out of position: outplayed by gamblers
 

Ok, here is something that happend quite often lately.
(it´s full ring NL25, NL10 by the way.)

To my left sits a player who came to gamble.
He realises that I sometimes fold when I think I am beat.
He now starts to push me off of my hands agressivly.

He cold-calls all my preflop raises.
When I c-bet, he calls. When I second-barrel the turn, he will raise pot-size often. If I don´t, then he will bet potsize. When I don´t c-bet, he will always bet the flop pot-size, and he will bet the turn pot-size again.

Now when I asked other players how to defend, they say something like "He´s putting in money with the worst hand often, you just value-bet your good hands and you´ll get rich."
But that is not the answer.

The problem is, his turn play shows an immidiate profit if I lay down my hand just 51% of the time.
(And I don´t have high implied odds, because when he´s betting like this when his 86o missed the flop and the turn, he´s really not gonna call if I shove.)
Now even if I loosen up a bit, I have a half-decent made hand or a reasonable draw a lot less then 51%.

So how do I tackle his agression?
I found three answers but none of them "feels" right:
1. play for stacks w/ overcards or w/ a pocket pair that makes 3rd pair when flop comes
2. play postflop as normal, but stop preflop-raising hands like AK for value because I don´t have a made hand by the turn often enough
3. accept that position is so powerfull that someone who´s reckless and has a decent read on me (I don´t like to get stacked w/o a hand) can outplay me by habitualy cold-calling legit raises w/ 86o, and then continuing like described above.

I hope that none of the above is true.

What´s your answer?

Re: out of position: outplayed by gamblers
 

With a guy like that, there are a couple of approaches that I've had some success with:

1. Get up. You don't have to play him. This is always an option. If your not in a gambling mood, move to another table.
2. Tighten up. Don't give up playing AK, but do give up playing some of the hands in the bottom of your range.

...snip...
(And I don´t have high implied odds, because when he´s betting like this when his 86o missed the flop and the turn, he´s really not gonna call if I shove.)
...snip...

Shove more.

3. Check raise for value on the turn with top pair hands. There are going to be times when you get all in with AJ on a J high board. It's volatile. He will have a hand once in a while.
4. Check raise your semi-bluffs more.

The hardest thing to get used to is playing much bigger pots with weaker hands than your used to. You have to be comfortable with that or he'll push you around all day, you'll be miserable, go on tilt, etc, etc.

Re: out of position: outplayed by gamblers
 

Agree to ActionStan, especially to 3 and 4. Plus: try lame things like small, weakish looking bets on flop and turn with good made hands (including TPTK against that kind of villain) then go for a big 3bet if raised.
Basically the key is to get REALLY aggressive in the right spots. Besides, patience is extremely important here. I'd never stand up with such a player at my table but rather wait for the few spots where I can win big pots from him.

Re: out of position: outplayed by gamblers
 

Try to sit with position on these players where possible.

Run the stack a donk line with your overpairs and TPTKs. Raise preflop --> big cbet on flop --> Check raise all in turn.

Re: out of position: outplayed by gamblers
 

I'll sit with them in position. But, it's so friggin miserable to sit with them oop. It kills your play in the CO and hijack. I think there's a lot to be said for getting up in the great big world of online poker where you can easily pick tables that suit you. That's certainly true for my style of play which involves raising a large range from the last 3 positions. When that is effectively reduced to one, I don't know, I think I can do better elsewhere.

Re: out of position: outplayed by gamblers
 

C-bet less often with your weak hands (like second pair or whatever) to keep the pot smaller.

Check-raise turn with good hands and good draws.

Re: out of position: outplayed by gamblers
 

i'd say you really aren't running into all that many players who are 'realizing' that you are folding or whatever. it probably just feels like it at times. if they are really crazy playing every pot gamblers, just treat tptk as the nuts and get it in.

Re: out of position: outplayed by gamblers
 

I think your overestimating your competition. You can do the thing people are suggesting, just make sure that you're checking to an aggressive player and not somebody who just calls alot.

Re: out of position: outplayed by gamblers
 

last 2 have good points. just b/c he is always betting when you are weak doesn't mean he is reading you extremely well.
he is most likely just overplaying his hands and picking up on obvious weakness.
pick spots and get very aggressive in them. the biggest advantage these guys have is people are afraid to buckle down and accept variance. be prepared to stack off or stack him off lighter than you'd expect.

Re: out of position: outplayed by gamblers
 

bump -

I think as your ranges and selective aggression improve that you will have less and less trouble with this. Renton's well may hold some of the answers that you seek. I didn't realize it until just now, but I took down a quote from Renton's well and have been adapting it into my game even though it hasn't been top of mind. Now that I just read the quote again I see that my game has really flourished in that particular area. Read, study, ponder and get better.

Re: out of position: outplayed by gamblers
 

[ QUOTE ]
Read, study, ponder and get better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I know. That´s why I don´t want to leave the table. I know that those people telling me to look for softer competition are giving very sound practical advice.

There must, however, be a way to beat someone who doesn´t have a "fold" button. I´m working on it [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Thanks for all comments!

Re: out of position: outplayed by gamblers
 

This is a very important time for you as a poker player, you are understanding why loose-aggresive play is frustrating and difficult and confusing to play against as a conservative player.

This isn't to say you should go lolnuts 37/29 infinite agg style but how many times say have you 3bet people preflop with Aces and they fold, darn, they always do that when I have Aces. Guess what? You can do that without Aces, and they will STILL fold pre. Working aggressive concepts into your game is neccessary to move up and move on instead of becoming a robotic setminer.

Re: out of position: outplayed by gamblers
 

[ QUOTE ]
Guess what? You can do that without Aces, and they will STILL fold pre. Working aggressive concepts into your game is neccessary to move up and move on instead of becoming a robotic setminer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Guess what? I´m really terrorising people who are as easily scared as I am [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

I just hate it when they are doing it against me.

In theory, I know that against a real gambler I must accept high variance to play well. Working on it!

Re: out of position: outplayed by gamblers
 

If your talking about the 60/35/10 type who seem to play mostly on Saturday nights, well if they are there to gamble then give them what they want.

These guys love to roll the dice, they may as well be at the slots for all they care, but "hey I'll give this poker a go tonight"
They love the adreline rush of the all in so give it to them!!
TT+ AQ+ ?? Get it in and watch them call with 9Ts, sure your gonna ride some variance when they have a hand or suck out but these guys are spraying chips and wont be around for long.

A different breed is a thinking TAG (or LAG) who knows that your stealing a fair percentage of the time.
Thats a whole different customer, just dont confuse the two.