What to do when a player goes south?
 

I was playing a LIMIT game (10/20 omaha8) at a casino today. Some guy was going on a good streak and built his stack up to about 600 or so from 200. The guy next to him repeatedly kept bringing out black chips (100) to breakdown, which the guy on a streak kept changing for him. He ended up with about 5 black chips. And in about an 30 min after he had changed the last of the guys chips, they were mysterially gone from the table! Now, in this room all the omaha players were all pretty friendly with each other, and this guy seemed to be a regular and friends with everyone else, so I doubt they would mind. I guess what I'm asking is, should you call someone out on it? Even if everyone at the table gets along with the person? I wanted to say something, but didn't wanna get the scorn from him and create some sort of bad atmosphere at the table.

Re: What to do when a player goes south?
 

If he goes from having 600 in front of him to $100 then you definitely have to say something. Big difference if he still has $1000+ in front of him still.

Re: What to do when a player goes south?
 

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If he goes from having 600 in front of him to $100 then you definitely have to say something. Big difference if he still has $1000+ in front of him still.

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That is also my opinion. If he has the second largest stack covered after the "transaction" I probably wouldn't say anything in a limit structured game

But...
If it is a NL game (obv not O8) I would not see this the same way as two hands could wipe out his stack.
Reader's Digest version:
In Limit...I say nothing if he is still the biggest stack after he ratholes.
No Limit...I might mention it to the floor discretely so they can address it if it happening frequently.

Re: What to do when a player goes south?
 

I dont't say anything in a limit game, until the persons tries to get all in.

Happened to me one time. Ex pro football players wins about $12,000 in a 60-120 limit game. He starts having his brother cash out chips for him. I dont say anything because I don't want the guy leaving the game. And he still has plenty of chips on the table. He has about $3000 in chips on the table and manages to piss back about $2700.

He has $300 on the table and raises. I 3 bet with jacks. He calls. He bets the flop and I stop the game and tell the dealer to the call the floor. Guy knows he is caught and pulls out $500. I tell the dealer to cancel calling the floor. He calls me down and leaves the game.

The guy comes in quite often and donks off a few thousand each trip. I try not to piss off people who pay my bills.

Re: What to do when a player goes south?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I dont't say anything in a limit game, until the persons tries to get all in.

Happened to me one time. Ex pro football players wins about $12,000 in a 60-120 limit game. He starts having his brother cash out chips for him. I dont say anything because I don't want the guy leaving the game. And he still has plenty of chips on the table. He has about $3000 in chips on the table and manages to piss back about $2700.

He has $300 on the table and raises. I 3 bet with jacks. He calls. He bets the flop and I stop the game and tell the dealer to the call the floor. Guy knows he is caught and pulls out $500. I tell the dealer to cancel calling the floor. He calls me down and leaves the game.

The guy comes in quite often and donks off a few thousand each trip. I try not to piss off people who pay my bills.

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So you wait until you are in a hand and then try to get money that isn't on the table in play when you have the best hand but are happy to let him get all-in if you don't want to get the money in?

Re: What to do when a player goes south?
 

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I dont't say anything in a limit game, until the persons tries to get all in.

Happened to me one time. Ex pro football players wins about $12,000 in a 60-120 limit game. He starts having his brother cash out chips for him. I dont say anything because I don't want the guy leaving the game. And he still has plenty of chips on the table. He has about $3000 in chips on the table and manages to piss back about $2700.

He has $300 on the table and raises. I 3 bet with jacks. He calls. He bets the flop and I stop the game and tell the dealer to the call the floor. Guy knows he is caught and pulls out $500. I tell the dealer to cancel calling the floor. He calls me down and leaves the game.

The guy comes in quite often and donks off a few thousand each trip. I try not to piss off people who pay my bills.

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So you wait until you are in a hand and then try to get money that isn't on the table in play when you have the best hand but are happy to let him get all-in if you don't want to get the money in?

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No. I wait until the guy tries to go all in and then make an issue out of it. My hand doesn't matter.

Re: What to do when a player goes south?
 

[ QUOTE ]
No. I wait until the guy tries to go all in and then make an issue out of it. My hand doesn't matter.


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What's the threshold for bringing it up? Do you just wait until the bet that would have put himself all-in? Or do you bring it up preemptivley at two big bets left? Three? Four? Is the threshold dependant on your holding (e.g. whether you're banking on implied odds or not). If so, wouldn't you worry this could give info. on the nature of your hand.

I think that any alteration of his stack would need to be done between hands, not in the middle of one. I can't think of any circumstances as a player where I should be allowed or forced to alter the size of my stack in the middle of a hand.

I also find it noble (but weird) that "your hand doesn't matter" (if true).

Re: What to do when a player goes south?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was playing a LIMIT game (10/20 omaha8) at a casino today. Some guy was going on a good streak and built his stack up to about 600 or so from 200. The guy next to him repeatedly kept bringing out black chips (100) to breakdown, which the guy on a streak kept changing for him. He ended up with about 5 black chips. And in about an 30 min after he had changed the last of the guys chips, they were mysterially gone from the table! Now, in this room all the omaha players were all pretty friendly with each other, and this guy seemed to be a regular and friends with everyone else, so I doubt they would mind. I guess what I'm asking is, should you call someone out on it? Even if everyone at the table gets along with the person? I wanted to say something, but didn't wanna get the scorn from him and create some sort of bad atmosphere at the table.

[/ QUOTE ]

As long as the guy still has a good amount in front of him, I don't see why it matters. In NL, this can give someone an unfair advantage. In limit, it doesn't matter at all.

Re: What to do when a player goes south?
 

In a limit game it rarely matters, and if you complain about it you come off as a big nit imo.

Re: What to do when a player goes south?
 

I guess I'll take a different view and say it DOES matter ... even in Limit. I used to play in a place that allowed you take anything more than $500 off the table in a 10-20 limit game. Lots of donks would build up a stack and then keep cashing out everything over $500. Then, whenever they lost that $500, they left, ensuring themselves of a win of $XX.

OTOH, in casinos where it isn't allowed, I've seen players with >2k or 3k in front of them (10-20 limit) donk off the entire amount before leaving the table with nothing. If they were allowed to rathole, I'm sure they would have, and left with a profit (or lessened our profit .... depending on your POV).

--Headhunter

Re: What to do when a player goes south?
 

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I dont't say anything in a limit game, until the persons tries to get all in.

Happened to me one time. Ex pro football players wins about $12,000 in a 60-120 limit game. He starts having his brother cash out chips for him. I dont say anything because I don't want the guy leaving the game. And he still has plenty of chips on the table. He has about $3000 in chips on the table and manages to piss back about $2700.

He has $300 on the table and raises. I 3 bet with jacks. He calls. He bets the flop and I stop the game and tell the dealer to the call the floor. Guy knows he is caught and pulls out $500. I tell the dealer to cancel calling the floor. He calls me down and leaves the game.

The guy comes in quite often and donks off a few thousand each trip. I try not to piss off people who pay my bills.

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So you wait until you are in a hand and then try to get money that isn't on the table in play when you have the best hand but are happy to let him get all-in if you don't want to get the money in?

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No. I wait until the guy tries to go all in and then make an issue out of it. My hand doesn't matter.

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Either way the decision should be the same : "He started the hand with this many chips on the table, that is what will play." The time to object to an irregularity is when it occurs, not at some future point. Even if your hand doesn't matter you are shooting an angle by not saying anything at the time (because it is to your advantage to not upset the player), but bringing it up in the future.

Re: What to do when a player goes south?
 

I find it better to say something to the dealer when it occurs. Something like, "Hey, are we letting people take chips off the table now?" This gets the job done.

Re: What to do when a player goes south?
 

I wouldn't say something to someone who was a fish. Otherwise I'd find the most tactful way to bring it up.

Re: What to do when a player goes south?
 

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I guess I'll take a different view and say it DOES matter ... even in Limit. I used to play in a place that allowed you take anything more than $500 off the table in a 10-20 limit game. Lots of donks would build up a stack and then keep cashing out everything over $500. Then, whenever they lost that $500, they left, ensuring themselves of a win of $XX.

OTOH, in casinos where it isn't allowed, I've seen players with >2k or 3k in front of them (10-20 limit) donk off the entire amount before leaving the table with nothing. If they were allowed to rathole, I'm sure they would have, and left with a profit (or lessened our profit .... depending on your POV).

--Headhunter

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^^ While this is all true, it makes no sense.

It's not your money even if the guy is a fish. From an EV standpoint it's like saying that it's rude for a losing player to buy a pizza before they sit down, as if they didn't, you could win the extra $12.

Re: What to do when a player goes south?
 

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I dont't say anything in a limit game, until the persons tries to get all in.

Happened to me one time. Ex pro football players wins about $12,000 in a 60-120 limit game. He starts having his brother cash out chips for him. I dont say anything because I don't want the guy leaving the game. And he still has plenty of chips on the table. He has about $3000 in chips on the table and manages to piss back about $2700.

He has $300 on the table and raises. I 3 bet with jacks. He calls. He bets the flop and I stop the game and tell the dealer to the call the floor. Guy knows he is caught and pulls out $500. I tell the dealer to cancel calling the floor. He calls me down and leaves the game.

The guy comes in quite often and donks off a few thousand each trip. I try not to piss off people who pay my bills.

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So you wait until you are in a hand and then try to get money that isn't on the table in play when you have the best hand but are happy to let him get all-in if you don't want to get the money in?

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No. I wait until the guy tries to go all in and then make an issue out of it. My hand doesn't matter.

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Either way the decision should be the same : "He started the hand with this many chips on the table, that is what will play." The time to object to an irregularity is when it occurs, not at some future point. Even if your hand doesn't matter you are shooting an angle by not saying anything at the time (because it is to your advantage to not upset the player), but bringing it up in the future.

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Im also a baseball umpire. I would use the same point of view as I do with an appeal on a play. If it isnt brought up at the time it happens, (eg. before the next hand) then you have lost all rights to said appeal.

It should be brought to the dealer, if not the floorman's, attention as soon as it happens so it can be rectified.

Re: What to do when a player goes south?
 

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I dont't say anything in a limit game, until the persons tries to get all in.

Happened to me one time. Ex pro football players wins about $12,000 in a 60-120 limit game. He starts having his brother cash out chips for him. I dont say anything because I don't want the guy leaving the game. And he still has plenty of chips on the table. He has about $3000 in chips on the table and manages to piss back about $2700.

He has $300 on the table and raises. I 3 bet with jacks. He calls. He bets the flop and I stop the game and tell the dealer to the call the floor. Guy knows he is caught and pulls out $500. I tell the dealer to cancel calling the floor. He calls me down and leaves the game.

The guy comes in quite often and donks off a few thousand each trip. I try not to piss off people who pay my bills.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you wait until you are in a hand and then try to get money that isn't on the table in play when you have the best hand but are happy to let him get all-in if you don't want to get the money in?

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No. I wait until the guy tries to go all in and then make an issue out of it. My hand doesn't matter.

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I disagree about when to bring it up here. Fortunately this is a limit game but the floor sometimes gets things wrong and may bust him down to the minimum buy-in if this was a NL game and there was any dispute about how much exactly he was staked to have on the table. But IMO it is better to bring it up beforhand. Once in a while people do this and they are not aware of the rules that it has to stay on the table. But as you said this guy knew everybody so he must be aware of the rule that he has got to keep it all on the table and can't take it off. Just call the floor over and get him to put the checks back on the table but don't be rude about him just tell him very matter of factly. This guy has to know that he can't take table stakes off the table and play with less. Otherwise he has to get up. You shouldn't have to wait until he is all-in to bring this up (although I know why you are) but you just never know what the floor is going to say.

Re: What to do when a player goes south?
 

To: Anyone who thinks its ok to rathole - either NL or Limit
From: Casino

Thank you for voiding the jackpot. Please come again.

Re: What to do when a player goes south?
 

Why does anyone in this thread think it's ok to go south for any amount? The floor should be alerted the moment you you see someone take chips off the table.

Re: What to do when a player goes south?
 

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Why does anyone in this thread think it's ok to go south for any amount? The floor should be alerted the moment you you see someone take chips off the table.

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Agree.

Re: What to do when a player goes south?
 

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Why does anyone in this thread think it's ok to go south for any amount? The floor should be alerted the moment you you see someone take chips off the table.

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Dealer first.
Then the Floor if dealer does not do his job.

Re: What to do when a player goes south?
 

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Why does anyone in this thread think it's ok to go south for any amount? The floor should be alerted the moment you you see someone take chips off the table.

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There are many times where you should let this slide. If some fish wants to protect 50 bucks for dinner with his wife and keep playing with 500, why would I create a stink? If I do whats likely to happen is that he's just going to leave with his whole stack.

I don't like people going south. I've brought the issue up to the player and dealer before, but players that enforce rules just because rules exist annoy me.

Saturday, I had to listen to a 5 minute argument because a player at a 300 max buy-in table lost a small pot and wanted an extra $100 worth of chips when he was at 250. Some dumbass-sunglass-wearing-ipod-listening-super-1-2-NL-pro objected. Of course this player (the re-buyer) was a bad LAG and DSWILS12NLP ended up stacking the guy an hour later and so in the end spent 5 minutes arguing only to deprive himself of 50 bucks.

Re: What to do when a player goes south?
 

I deal limit. At the bigger chip games, I've never encountered anybody trying to do this, and I can imagine every different response possible from the others.

At the lower limits, it's never ended well when someone has tried it. We have a lot of regulars and a lot of nits and they always call the person out on it. The person always racks up and leaves. The person is always a donator.

I can certainly understand raising a stink if somebody takes a disproportionately large amount off the table and intends to stay and play regardless. And absolutely no way would I find it acceptable in PL/NL. But every time I've encountered it, it's been a newer player who wasn't planning on playing much longer anyway and who would have most definitely donated what he had left and possibly pulled out a few of those big chips from his pocket if he lost it too quickly. But instead, since people complained, it's just meant an ATM shut down, likely never to return because of such the harsh vulture-like attitude of the regulars.

Re: What to do when a player goes south?
 

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Why does anyone in this thread think it's ok to go south for any amount? The floor should be alerted the moment you you see someone take chips off the table.

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There are many times where you should let this slide. If some fish wants to protect 50 bucks for dinner with his wife and keep playing with 500, why would I create a stink? If I do whats likely to happen is that he's just going to leave with his whole stack.



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You should never let it slide. How pissed are you going to be when someone ratholes and the next hand the jackpot is voided because the person went south?

Re: What to do when a player goes south?
 

How does somebody going south void a jackpot? Have you seen a jackpot not be paid because of this? Perhaps I shouldn't say this, but I suspect most jackpot voiding rules are simply to keep the lotto-chasers in line. A lot easier and with less argument or aquarium-tapping to say "voids jackpot" than to give the real reasons for things.

But then, I wouldn't put it past some floor to become convinced of their own bull-hooey.

Re: What to do when a player goes south?
 

How much experience does a player need before he knows this and other simple common rules of poker? I'd guess around 40 hours of play and after this they have no excuse. Taking chips off the table in any game is cheating period. You allow this to slide, what slides next? "Hey, ol Joes a good guy, he didn't mean to string bet, we'll allow it this time." "I know about the one player to hand rule but Daves is playing Johns money, we can let him ask John can't we." Pretty soon all kinds of rules violations creep into the game. How many times have you sat in a game and watched a dolt hold his hand so your opponent can see his cards every time he looks at them and you play on saying nothing. This happens all the time.

Anybody with much experience breaking the rules is willfully cheating. Allowing this to happen damages the integrity of the game. YOUR GAME. Who cares about peer presure? This isn't a game of making buddies. Sure you treat people with respect and in a friendly way. When people violate the rules they are cheating. You ask the dealer to clairify the rule nicely the first time. Maybe ask "Since chipped down $500 would it be ok dealer if I chip down to $50?". Politely of course. Second time you are more direct. Why preserve this player in the game if he likes to cheat? How many players you could beat filter out of the game because the floor and dealer can't control it and keep it completely on the level? I say you lose more here by tip toeing timmidly around the angle shooter.

Bad ettiquete is farting at the table, calling players name, F-bomb, harassing the dealer and etc.... Breaking the rules is cheating. Stand up for yourself and the integrity of the game. If a game isn't kept clean it slowly gets dirtier and dirtier and pretty soon you don't have much of a game. In this game more than any other activity I've ever been involved in I'm compelled to assert you must stand up for yourself. People will cheat in this game. It's unusual to sit for an 8 hour session without seeing some sort of angle shooting/cheating going on. Sometimes it's just an honest mistake or misunderstanding, you let those go. Experienced players know better however. There are those who can't win any other way and they are not ashamed to take every advantage of you that you will allow. If you want a nice game to play in you better take responsibility to preserve it.

Additionally, it's a rule in most games that you must protect the other players. You are compelled (not to be a nit picky jerk) to make sure the integrity of the game is preserved for all players. Yes, if a player is accidentally showing his hand, I don't care how much I like the player who's getting to see it, I'll let him know he's showing his hand. I'm honor bound to do so.

Dave

Re: What to do when a player goes south?
 

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Why does anyone in this thread think it's ok to go south for any amount? The floor should be alerted the moment you you see someone take chips off the table.

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There are many times where you should let this slide. If some fish wants to protect 50 bucks for dinner with his wife and keep playing with 500, why would I create a stink? If I do whats likely to happen is that he's just going to leave with his whole stack.



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You should never let it slide. How pissed are you going to be when someone ratholes and the next hand the jackpot is voided because the person went south?

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Not very, because:

1. I don't play at a jackpot casino.
2. I don't understand how the jackpot can be voided.
3. I'm not talking about going from $1000 to $100, I'm talking about smaller amounts
4. I realize that in the long run having a donater at the table will make me more money then the tiny amount I can expect from a jackpot in that time.

Re: What to do when a player goes south?
 

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SLIDE DOWN A RIDICULOUS SLIPPERY SLOPE!!! IF YOU LET KIDS WRESTLE THEY WILL BECOME HITLER!

Dave

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Get a grip.

Re: What to do when a player goes south?
 

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How does somebody going south void a jackpot? Have you seen a jackpot not be paid because of this? Perhaps I shouldn't say this, but I suspect most jackpot voiding rules are simply to keep the lotto-chasers in line. A lot easier and with less argument or aquarium-tapping to say "voids jackpot" than to give the real reasons for things.

But then, I wouldn't put it past some floor to become convinced of their own bull-hooey.

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I have seen a Jackpot get voided due to someone ratholing, I was on the next table and needless to say that people were upset. I don't know the reasoning behind it, but I saw it happen.

Re: What to do when a player goes south?
 

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How does somebody going south void a jackpot? Have you seen a jackpot not be paid because of this? Perhaps I shouldn't say this, but I suspect most jackpot voiding rules are simply to keep the lotto-chasers in line. A lot easier and with less argument or aquarium-tapping to say "voids jackpot" than to give the real reasons for things.

But then, I wouldn't put it past some floor to become convinced of their own bull-hooey.

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I have seen a Jackpot get voided due to someone ratholing, I was on the next table and needless to say that people were upset. I don't know the reasoning behind it, but I saw it happen.

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Some casinos look for ways to invalidate jackpots. Nobody in Nevada is likely to get away with this--I really don't see the Gaming Commission agreeing with the casino that someone removing $100 in chips 3 hands ago invalidates any jackpot won on that table while the player is still there. I imagine the Gaming Agent would roll his eyes and politely ask if they REALLY want to proceed down this path.

Re: What to do when a player goes south?
 

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How does somebody going south void a jackpot? Have you seen a jackpot not be paid because of this? Perhaps I shouldn't say this, but I suspect most jackpot voiding rules are simply to keep the lotto-chasers in line. A lot easier and with less argument or aquarium-tapping to say "voids jackpot" than to give the real reasons for things.

But then, I wouldn't put it past some floor to become convinced of their own bull-hooey.

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I have seen a Jackpot get voided due to someone ratholing, I was on the next table and needless to say that people were upset. I don't know the reasoning behind it, but I saw it happen.

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Since I'm in kind of a bitchy mood, I'd like to point out that you haven't seen a jackpot get voided because of someone ratholing. Hearing about it from the next table while people were yelling and likely don't know what they were talking about doesn't count. If you don't know the reason, I don't really believe you can be that confident that it was because of ratholing.

Re: What to do when a player goes south?
 

If a cop on the side of the road clocks a guy at 70mph in a 65mph zone, and assesses the guy as no real threat and doesn't bother to pull the driver over, it doesn't necessarily mean the offending driver will eventually turn into a murderer, or the city into a lawless land of roaming thugs.

Proportionality is the key. If a very minor offense, tending to be committed by fish who are happy to donate, occurs now and then, I would not fret too much. If it happens too often, then cracking down is proper.

IMHO.

Re: What to do when a player goes south?
 

When is it OK to sexually molest little kids? That's how often it's OK to rat-hole...

Re: What to do when a player goes south?
 

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How does somebody going south void a jackpot? Have you seen a jackpot not be paid because of this? Perhaps I shouldn't say this, but I suspect most jackpot voiding rules are simply to keep the lotto-chasers in line. A lot easier and with less argument or aquarium-tapping to say "voids jackpot" than to give the real reasons for things.

But then, I wouldn't put it past some floor to become convinced of their own bull-hooey.

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I have seen a Jackpot get voided due to someone ratholing, I was on the next table and needless to say that people were upset. I don't know the reasoning behind it, but I saw it happen.

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Some casinos look for ways to invalidate jackpots. Nobody in Nevada is likely to get away with this--I really don't see the Gaming Commission agreeing with the casino that someone removing $100 in chips 3 hands ago invalidates any jackpot won on that table while the player is still there. I imagine the Gaming Agent would roll his eyes and politely ask if they REALLY want to proceed down this path.

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It was in LA, not vegas.

Re: What to do when a player goes south?
 

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How does somebody going south void a jackpot? Have you seen a jackpot not be paid because of this? Perhaps I shouldn't say this, but I suspect most jackpot voiding rules are simply to keep the lotto-chasers in line. A lot easier and with less argument or aquarium-tapping to say "voids jackpot" than to give the real reasons for things.

But then, I wouldn't put it past some floor to become convinced of their own bull-hooey.

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I have seen a Jackpot get voided due to someone ratholing, I was on the next table and needless to say that people were upset. I don't know the reasoning behind it, but I saw it happen.

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Since I'm in kind of a bitchy mood, I'd like to point out that you haven't seen a jackpot get voided because of someone ratholing. Hearing about it from the next table while people were yelling and likely don't know what they were talking about doesn't count. If you don't know the reason, I don't really believe you can be that confident that it was because of ratholing.

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Well, when I'm in the 5 seat and the floorman is standing less than 2 feet away from me behind the dealer at the next table and says "I'm sorry but this jackpot has been voided due to seat 7 not keeping all his chips on the table" I think that qualifies me as to seeing it happen.

Re: What to do when a player goes south?
 

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In a limit game it rarely matters, and if you complain about it you come off as a big nit imo.

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I have seen it done only a few times in my 10/20 LHE game. And each time the guy reached into his pocket to replenish when he got short. I never say anything when I see it happen because it generally is inferior players who do it, and I don't want them to leave.