Playing Too Tight??
 

$4/$8 limit game.
I'm in MP with red 9s. I'm in seat 10. Seat 7 (very loose player) and seat 9 (very solid) both limp. I limp also (weak?). Seat 1 raises (he's a $10/$20 player waiting for a 10/20 seat). Seat 2 makes it 3 bets. She is the wife of seat 9 and she is just as solid as her husband. I put her on AA or KK. It folds around to the limpers (7&9) who fold, including her husband. I fold also.

Was this too weak? Should I have paid attention to the numbers of bets in the pot to help with my decision? [I believe it's 2 SB to call and there's 9.5 SB in pot so far]

I had seat 1 still to act behind me. He could very well cap it.

Now, does it make a difference what the flop was (I say it doesn't)? Because since I'm posting you can probably guess what hit.

I found out what hands seat 1 and 2 had and I was behind both.

Thanks

PS I did mention what I had to the table and got a mixture of "You play too tight" and "Correct read".

As I'm a newbie (still reading the posting requirements) does the forum in general like to know what the hands and flop were for these types of questions?

Re: Playing Too Tight??
 

I would have definatly called there. You almost getting 5:1, and its 7:1 to hit your set. But if you do hit, you will collect lots of bets. ( this is what poker is all about)(and anyone who gives advice at the table doesn't know what they're talking about).

Because you can reliably put your opponents on big hands, you can easily fold the flop if you don't hit a set ( or a 678 flop).

Also, i would have raised preflop, but i raise alot in 4-8 games. By raising, you can get position and take control of the hand.

Marrek

Re: Playing Too Tight??
 

Raise preflop. You should have seen the flop. The only way that you shouldn't see the flop with 99 is if it's three cold to you, and even that depends on the quality of play of the raisers. The results of the hand do not matter; what matters is the quality of the decisions you make. Doesn't matter what flopped.

When you post use a hand converter or approximate it manually for live play. Do not post results, ever. It biases the responses. Always post as detailed a read on your opponents as you can.

Re: Playing Too Tight??
 

You should have raised the first time because 99 gives you an equity advantage over the random crap your opponents will be playing.

Your fold to the 3bet was correct (I would have called if the limpers came along though).

Re: Playing Too Tight??
 

Hey there, check out the thread near the top of the SSHE forum about posting guidelines. It will help.

Good luck

Re: Playing Too Tight??
 

One more for raising preflop, although I don't think limping behind is terrible at these stakes in a live game.

As played, good fold--you trusted your read (which was probably right), and in a typical B&M game you aren't going to make up enough in implied odds after the flop to call 2 more bets (and possibly have to call a third).

In answer to your other questions, always pay attention to your pot odds. That's what LHE is all about. And no, results don't matter...I've patted myself on the back for making correct folds while cringing at what I would've hit more times than I can count. Of course, neither your nor I remembers the far more plentiful occasions when we correctly folded & wouldn't have hit anything.

Oh...probably not a good idea to tell the table what you had after the hand. Sure, it's tempting when you would've won a huge pot, but you likely don't want the image issues that mentioning this fold could bring up.

Re: Playing Too Tight??
 

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Raise preflop.

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Yes.

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The only way that you shouldn't see the flop with 99 is if it's three cold to you, and even that depends on the quality of play of the raisers.

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No. You do not want to play this for 2 cold shorthanded against a tight pfr range.

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Oh...probably not a good idea to tell the table what you had after the hand. Sure, it's tempting when you would've won a huge pot, but you likely don't want the image issues that mentioning this fold could bring up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

Re: Playing Too Tight??
 

I think that folding this preflop is horrible IMO.

Its ~ 5:1 presently on your call. Its very reasonable that you can expect to collect at least 4 BB after the flop if you hit your set, making it a +EV situation.

Your opponents are not going to fold an overpair on the flop in a 4-8 game. Its also likely that they'll get a least 1 raise in there, especially if the flop is non-threatening ( ie.Q92, or K94).

This is a hand where you could collect a big pot if you hit, as you put your opponents on big hands and they're likely to get to the river on alot of boards.

There is more than enough implied odds to call here. The chance that it will be capped behind you, it reduces your odds to almost 4:1, which is still +EV.

for this not to be +EV, both your opponents would have to fold on the turn, and if that is the case, you should be happy to call and bluff them off their overpair.

mark

Re: Playing Too Tight??
 

does this advice hold for any pocket pair, then?
specifically, lower ones?

Re: Playing Too Tight??
 

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does this advice hold for any pocket pair, then?
specifically, lower ones?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, for a 4-8 game.

The lower the cards and the better my opponents, the better the current odds i want. If it went utg raise, utg + 1 reraise, utg + 2 caps, i'm not cold calling pocket 3s, for 4 bets, it a 4 way pot ( 3:1 on my $$) unless my opponents are terrible.

mark

Re: Playing Too Tight??
 

Maybe raise is better, but limping is fine. I would still call for 2 more bets in a large pot. You have good strategic advantage post flop. And if you hit your set, you will make plenty. Or make a quick fold if you don't.

Re: Playing Too Tight??
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think that folding this preflop is horrible IMO.

Its ~ 5:1 presently on your call. Its very reasonable that you can expect to collect at least 4 BB after the flop if you hit your set, making it a +EV situation.

Your opponents are not going to fold an overpair on the flop in a 4-8 game. Its also likely that they'll get a least 1 raise in there, especially if the flop is non-threatening ( ie.Q92, or K94).

This is a hand where you could collect a big pot if you hit, as you put your opponents on big hands and they're likely to get to the river on alot of boards.

There is more than enough implied odds to call here. The chance that it will be capped behind you, it reduces your odds to almost 4:1, which is still +EV.

for this not to be +EV, both your opponents would have to fold on the turn, and if that is the case, you should be happy to call and bluff them off their overpair.

mark

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one issue I take with this analysis is that you are ignoring the times you hit a set and still lose. while this happens very infrequently, when it does happen you lose a lot of chips.

in your last paragraph you justify playing this hand in a situation where it is -EV. this is a sign that you are trying too hard to justify playing this hand. I'm not saying it's -EV to play this hand, i'm just saying you don't always have implied odds just because you have a pocket pair.

zip

Re: Playing Too Tight??
 

First off, I raise when it gets to me. If a solid player didn't raise a loose limper to iso, then he must have pretty crappy cards and should be punished for limping (figuratively speaking). He most likely has a smaller PP, small suited connectors, or a suited ace. You dominate all of these holdings.

If she's "solid" she could be 3-betting here with AK or AQs, but if she's solid in the sense she's a rock, then meh, it's ok. I would still probably call since our implied odds are huge to flop a set. Also, if you call, the guy behind you might as well, which further increases your odds.

Also, her husband sucks. If he's going to raise and then fold for one more preflop, he is probably terrible or a rock or both.

Re: Playing Too Tight??
 

This is an important point. I don't think the fold is bad. I think it is pretty close. Your pot odds may get reduced if the original raiser caps. You can flop a set and still lose.

I think its a close decision that can be played either way. I like to call, because I prefer to play the close decisions (and some of the non-close ones [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]), because playing is more interesting than folding.

I don't think you're leaving anything significant on the table folding in this situation, though.


[ QUOTE ]
one issue I take with this analysis is that you are ignoring the times you hit a set and still lose. while this happens very infrequently, when it does happen you lose a lot of chips.

in your last paragraph you justify playing this hand in a situation where it is -EV. this is a sign that you are trying too hard to justify playing this hand. I'm not saying it's -EV to play this hand, i'm just saying you don't always have implied odds just because you have a pocket pair.


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Re: Playing Too Tight??
 

You misread the hand. The husband limped and then folded to 2 more bets.

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Also, her husband sucks. If he's going to raise and then fold for one more preflop, he is probably terrible or a rock or both.

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Re: Playing Too Tight??
 

Her husband was on my right and he was one of 2 limpers ahead of me. He and the other limper both folded to the three bet. As I did.

I am grateful for the advice. It's making me re-hit the books (SSHE).

Re: Playing Too Tight??
 

it's not a great idea to tell people what you folded.

Re: Playing Too Tight??
 

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Raise preflop. You should have seen the flop. The only way that you shouldn't see the flop with 99 is if it's three cold to you

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I muck 99 all the time vs solid openraisers.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

513,691,200 games 0.031 secs 16,570,683,870 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 32.910% 32.71% 00.20% 168005508 1049562.00 { 99 }
Hand 1: 67.090% 66.89% 00.20% 343586568 1049562.00 { TT+, AQs+, AKo }


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Re: Playing Too Tight??
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

for this not to be +EV, both your opponents would have to fold on the turn, and if that is the case, you should be happy to call and bluff them off their overpair.

mark

[/ QUOTE ]


in your last paragraph you justify playing this hand in a situation where it is -EV. this is a sign that you are trying too hard to justify playing this hand. I'm not saying it's -EV to play this hand, i'm just saying you don't always have implied odds just because you have a pocket pair.

zip

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you don't always HAVE to play a pocket pair. but you're missing my point here. What i'm saying is that in order for this not to be +EV, your oppoents would have to be good enough to fold and overpair when you flop a set, which will never happen at 4-8.

If you ever run into a NIT who folds an overpair in this situation, it agian becomes +EV because you can bluff them out.

marrek

Re: Playing Too Tight??
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Raise preflop. You should have seen the flop. The only way that you shouldn't see the flop with 99 is if it's three cold to you

[/ QUOTE ]

I muck 99 all the time vs solid openraisers.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

513,691,200 games 0.031 secs 16,570,683,870 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 32.910% 32.71% 00.20% 168005508 1049562.00 { 99 }
Hand 1: 67.090% 66.89% 00.20% 343586568 1049562.00 { TT+, AQs+, AKo }


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[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for posting this. I have read a LOT lately on this board about capping 99. It's really not a great hand. I think the OP made a good fold.

Value is a concept that, IMHO, should be balanced with hand-reading and opponent-reading skills, and basic poker skills like knowing when you're beat. Many posts on here lately have advocated throwing away chips in situations where folding is more prudent.

Value is nice in theory, but sometimes in practice we have to just fold.. lest we turn ourselves into donkeys.

I limp 99 PF all the time so I can see a flop cheaply and reassess on the flop. Since I play 3/6 live I'm not usually folding out anyone by raising anyway. Nines are just way, way too susceptible to overcards.. if we were playing NLHE then sure, by all means raise those 99s PF.

Re: Playing Too Tight??
 

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it's not a great idea to tell people what you folded unless you're lying .

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Re: Playing Too Tight??
 

i would think a call is justified...versus a single overpair you are 18% to win at worst, and the pot will have 10 sb in it after you put in your 2 to call...a little short but if you make a set on the flop you have terrific implied odds...if capped you would be putting in 3 to make the pot 12 or perhaps 14...i think you stay to see a flop here

Re: Playing Too Tight??
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, you don't always HAVE to play a pocket pair. but you're missing my point here. What i'm saying is that in order for this not to be +EV, your oppoents would have to be good enough to fold and overpair when you flop a set, which will never happen at 4-8.

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Do the math for the situation where they just bet once, get raised on the flop and then call down. Also consider that they won't have an overpair if an A flops and they have like KK/QQ. Finally consider the cases where you flop a set and lose.

The usual standard when comparing all of these things is that the pot should be about 10x your preflop call when you win it. So we're talking 20-30SB after you consider the possibility of getting capped, or even 40SB if it's a 5-bet cap game.

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If you ever run into a NIT who folds an overpair in this situation, it agian becomes +EV because you can bluff them out.

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But if you don't already know that's the type you're playing against, then you're either going to not capitalize on this fact or you're going to donk off chips against someone who won't fold a significant % of the time.

Re: Playing Too Tight??
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for posting this. I have read a LOT lately on this board about capping 99. It's really not a great hand. I think the OP made a good fold.

Value is a concept that, IMHO, should be balanced with hand-reading and opponent-reading skills, and basic poker skills like knowing when you're beat. Many posts on here lately have advocated throwing away chips in situations where folding is more prudent.

Value is nice in theory, but sometimes in practice we have to just fold.. lest we turn ourselves into donkeys.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not an example of equity failing to illustrate the correct play; it's precisely the opposite.

Re: Playing Too Tight??
 

Grunch


Limping here is WRONG. You should RAISE.

However, as played your fold was correct IMO.

Guess a 9 hit on the flop, huh? Life sucks.


PS: Do NOT tell the table what you had. You are giving away information. NEVER give your opponents accurate information.


AB