College App Question: SAT scores vs. GPA
 

how does it look to colleges in this situation? for instance lets say someone gets a 2250+ and has a 3.3gpa, or at the other end has a 4.0 and a 2000. how do colleges look at these situations? is it better to have one than the other?

Re: College App Question: SAT scores vs. GPA
 

Case 1: they know you are lazy-ish.
Case 2: they know you are a hardworker and probably not as smart as case 1.

I think most undergrads will prefer case 2. However they also tend to use index scores which vary depending upon school.

Re: College App Question: SAT scores vs. GPA
 

Case 1: It depends on where you went to high school. A 3.3 means many different things depending on your school. They know you're smart enough, and they'll want to know how hard it was to get a 3.3 at your school.

Case 2: Again, it depends. A 2000 certainly does not mean you're dumb, and if you got a 4.0 at a decent school, you're going to be fine. Otoh, if you got a 4.0 at some retard school, it doesn't do you much good.

Re: College App Question: SAT scores vs. GPA
 

Depends on your high school, also depends on how your GPA got to where it was. For example here I'd rather be the 2nd person if my GPA had been increasing since sophomore year, I'd hate to be the 1st guy if my GPA was a 4.0 freshman year.

Re: College App Question: SAT scores vs. GPA
 

bumping this cause i got my SAT scores, it looks like i fit case A perfectly, 800 math, 760 writing, 690 reading for 2250 and my gpa looks like it will shape up to between 3.35-3.4. my highschool is a small private school where i am definitely taking the harder classes i can in everything except english. this quarter i have 5 A's and 1 B unweighted so hopefully i can carry that to the semester.

for reference here is the list of school im applying to in no particular order, and all schools except chicago im applying as EE major

1. Stanford
2. Berkeley
3. Harvey Mudd
4. UCSD
5. UCLA
6. UC davis
7. UCSB
8. u Chicago
9. Lafayette
10. Carnegie-Mellon
11. USC
12. Cal Poly SLO

Re: College App Question: SAT scores vs. GPA
 

EE will eat you alive at every one of those schools.

Re: College App Question: SAT scores vs. GPA
 

As someone who helps to make these decisions, a 3.35-3.4 GPA doesn't look impressive even if you are from a prep school unless it's a really top-notch place. Otoh, it doesn't look like you're a retard either, especially with those SAT scores. If i were looking at a cold application like this, i'd have to guess you were somewhat lazy. Someone who get those SAT scores should get a 3.7+ GPA.

To be sure, this is not meant as an insult. I'm just telling you how we make these decisions. It's an imperfect system, but unfortunately, it's the reality that you need to deal with.

Btw, why not include Illinois on your list? Best value for the buck in almost all engineering depts.

Re: College App Question: SAT scores vs. GPA
 

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EE will eat you alive at every one of those schools.

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im aware of this, but my GPA tends to be lower due to language and english classes, i have tended to do very well in math/science classes. right now im taking number theory which is typically a sophomore level college math class; modern physics, a class in which i am the only student and is focused around essentially physics in the last 100-130 years; and physics with experimental design, which is based around the idea of learnign the physics behind real world things rather than just theoretical circumstances. id take an AP physics but the only one my school offers requires me to have already taken calc BC last year. i also took honors physics last year. over the last summer i took java programing, a basic astrophysics class, and cognitive psychology at stanford in a high school summer program, all for transerable credits as if i attended the school as an undergrad. also two summers ago i worked in a lab at the UNC-chapel hill school of public health doing basic research and have worked every year on the los angeles marathon, hopefully this gives a better idea of what colleges will see

Re: College App Question: SAT scores vs. GPA
 

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As someone who helps to make these decisions, a 3.35-3.4 GPA doesn't look impressive even if you are from a prep school unless it's a really top-notch place. Otoh, it doesn't look like you're a retard either, especially with those SAT scores. If i were looking at a cold application like this, i'd have to guess you were somewhat lazy. Someone who get those SAT scores should get a 3.7+ GPA.

To be sure, this is not meant as an insult. I'm just telling you how we make these decisions. It's an imperfect system, but unfortunately, it's the reality that you need to deal with.

Btw, why not include Illinois on your list? Best value for the buck in almost all engineering depts.

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it originally was, but applying out of state just cost so much more and state apps tend to require a lot more work for a school i didn't really intend on going to seemed pointless. most of my schools are on the coast for a reason:)

Re: College App Question: SAT scores vs. GPA
 

whatever happens ... don't go to U of chicago ... Northwestern FTW

Re: College App Question: SAT scores vs. GPA
 

1. Penn State Honors Program.
2. ???
3. Profit immensely..

Re: College App Question: SAT scores vs. GPA
 

being in the same situation as you and going through college crap for the last 2 years and knowing the difficulty of most schools today, you have a very slim chance at a lot of those schools especially stanford.

Re: College App Question: SAT scores vs. GPA
 

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being in the same situation as you and going through college crap for the last 2 years and knowing the difficulty of most schools today, you have a very slim chance at a lot of those schools especially stanford.

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i know that about stanford, but i spent last summer living/taking classes there so i may as well apply on that <5% chance i get in for some reason. berkeley also a reach. the rest hopefully my out of class stuff/800 on math sat/rigor of curriculum will help me enough.

Re: College App Question: SAT scores vs. GPA
 

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being in the same situation as you and going through college crap for the last 2 years and knowing the difficulty of most schools today, you have a very slim chance at a lot of those schools especially stanford.

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i know that about stanford, but i spent last summer living/taking classes there so i may as well apply on that <5% chance i get in for some reason. berkeley also a reach. the rest hopefully my out of class stuff/800 on math sat/rigor of curriculum will help me enough.

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The 800 in the Quant section is not going to do as much for you as you might think. That section is so top heavy that a 800 doesn't really stand out like it would for the verbal section.

However, now that i've seen your course load as you've described above, i'd say that part will go in your favor. The GPA is still too low for most top schools, but you have a good shot at getting into a second-tier program. And you never know, a top-tier school might take you, so apply anyway.

To give you an idea of what the standards are... at UIUC, the average GPA is 3.8 and the average SAT is 2300.

Re: College App Question: SAT scores vs. GPA
 

Btw, is your GPA adjusted already for the AP classes you took?

Re: College App Question: SAT scores vs. GPA
 

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Btw, is your GPA adjusted already for the AP classes you took?

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no, i didnt bother since my school offers so few AP courses. my school tends to try to offer harder courses that aren't APs for whatever their philisophical reason, but for example my math class is college level but there isnt an AP for it, same is true of modern physics, and it is in the course description that number theory is harder than any AP offered. the others i dont know how they stack up compared to other highschools/colleges but generally my schools classes are harder than other hs.

edit: my school offers i think a total of 16 APs, i'm taking two since i have no interest in biology/chemistry, wont do well in an AP english, and need to have taken calc BC to be allowed into physics C. my school doesn't let you just sign up for an AP course and get in, you need approval from the department head to get into AP courses

Re: College App Question: SAT scores vs. GPA
 

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Btw, is your GPA adjusted already for the AP classes you took?

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no, i didnt bother since my school offers so few AP courses. my school tends to try to offer harder courses that aren't APs for whatever their philisophical reason, but for example my math class is college level but there isnt an AP for it, same is true of modern physics, and it is in the course description that number theory is harder than any AP offered. the others i dont know how they stack up compared to other highschools/colleges but generally my schools classes are harder than other hs.

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You're going to want to take some time to convince your schools of this. If your high school is on some list of top-tier HS's in the nation, then by all means make sure you mention that. One thing you have to keep in mind is that these decisions are based on quantitative evidence (rankings, etc.) rather than qualitative evidence. So telling them that your school is hard isn't enough unless you have quantitative evidence to back that claim up.

Re: College App Question: SAT scores vs. GPA
 

well my school absolutely refuses to do class rank, they wont give any mention of a rank. they also tell us specifically to write that the schools doesn't offer any sort of honors or awards to its students

Re: College App Question: SAT scores vs. GPA
 

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well my school absolutely refuses to do class rank, they wont give any mention of a rank. they also tell us specifically to write that the schools doesn't offer any sort of honors or awards to its students

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I don't mean class rank, although that would be nice to have (you can probably figure this out yourself by asking someone in the front office nicely). I meant national ranking. Is your school ranked nationally by some outside agency (e.g. Newsweek)? Is your school on this list?

http://www.newsweek.com/id/39380

Edit: that list is public schools, so it won't apply to you, but you can find a similar list for private schools.

Re: College App Question: SAT scores vs. GPA
 

its a private highschool so it cant be ranked there

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its a private highschool so it cant be ranked there

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LOL. I just remembered you said that and edited before i read your post. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: College App Question: SAT scores vs. GPA
 

ganja, i pm'ed you the only review i could find, still looking for some sort of ranking

Re: College App Question: SAT scores vs. GPA
 

what your college counselors will do (or atleast what mine did) will send a break down of what your school is all about. In a school like mine you didn't want to be ranked. Only 30 kids total and almost all were top notch ivy league material. I however was a lazy jock that was just gifted so I was def. on the lower end. But they send a paper out saying due to our competitive nature we don't rank etc etc but they say based on our unweighted scale of 4.0 85% of students had higher than 3.0, 50% had higher than x, 10% than y, and top 5% (TWO STUDENTS in my case) has this...Most of my friends from prep schools were in a similar situation. My advice to you would be to get superb letters of recommendation from your college counselor, dean of upper school, and some of your math/science teachers. (maybe even one from your classes at STandford). Also obv. a good essay, although for an EE program I don't know what is taken into consideration. Goodluck and if you need any help let me know

Re: College App Question: SAT scores vs. GPA
 

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To give you an idea of what the standards are... at UIUC, the average GPA is 3.8 and the average SAT is 2300.

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Don't know about the GPA, but NO school had an average SAT that high. Harvard is approx. 2240, Yale is about 2230, and UIUC is around 1980-2000 (taken from the SAT website).

Re: College App Question: SAT scores vs. GPA
 

it's possible he means only for the EE program, OR what they use to "auto-admit" people. Like without going into the entire file if they meet those 2 requirement they're in. IDK though

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the teacher writing my recs are both good for the job imo, one is my physics teacher from last year who graduated dartmouth and the other is my current english teacher who graduated USC, not sure where he got his master's though. my college councelor seems to like me a lot so that will help. to my knowledge, and i know most of the smart people in my grade, there isn't a single person with a 4.0 unweighted, a few 3.9s but im pretty sure there is no one without at least one A-/B+/B in there somehwere, and from what i have ascertained my SAT score is at least top 5 of my 76 person class. i only know for a fact one person did better than me, that is one of my friends who got a 2400 but there are a few people i dont talk to much who could have done better

Re: College App Question: SAT scores vs. GPA
 

well you seem to be in good shape.. good luck with all your schools, and report back when you get your answers...

Re: College App Question: SAT scores vs. GPA
 

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well you seem to be in good shape.. good luck with all your schools, and report back when you get your answers...

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ill be sure to, that is still quite a while off though:) thanks for all the help from everyone

Re: College App Question: SAT scores vs. GPA
 

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ganja, i pm'ed you the only review i could find, still looking for some sort of ranking

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I got your PM and i actually recognize your school. It is in fact a good school and that may give you a head up on other students. Be sure to mention this in your application, and highlight all your advanced courses that most high school students wouldn't take. Also, if you've taken courses that count for college credit, note the GPA for those separately.

Re: College App Question: SAT scores vs. GPA
 

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To give you an idea of what the standards are... at UIUC, the average GPA is 3.8 and the average SAT is 2300.

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Don't know about the GPA, but NO school had an average SAT that high. Harvard is approx. 2240, Yale is about 2230, and UIUC is around 1980-2000 (taken from the SAT website).

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I was referring to the engineering students, as we are talking about a high school candidate who wants to enter a EE program. This was information given me by a colleague at UIUC who does regression analyses on college success as a function of SAT scores, so i assumed she knew what she was talking about.

Edit: It appears that there are multiple conversion charts from old SAT to new SAT. One chart would put the average at around 2220-2270, instead of 2300. Sorry if i was off in my original post.

Re: College App Question: SAT scores vs. GPA
 

I thought over your situation a bit, and came up with this advice:

Don't worry about the SAT writing score ... most colleges don't really care about it. That gives you like a 1560/1600 ... which is 99+ percentile. Those SATs are first rate ... good enough for any school in the United States (even HYPS etc.).

But .... In your situation (not so great GPA), Class rank is key (most top-tier schools consider class rank a better indicator of academic performance than GPA) Since your school doesn't rank ... your counselor should still be able to indicate to colleges within what percentage you fall (top 5%, 10%, 20% etc.) This is standard procedure for schools that don't rank.

Regardless, your recs. will be absolutely essential. your counselor needs to emphasize your tough course load and (hopefully) an upward trend in grades from your freshman year (colleges love that kind of stuff). your teachers need to emphasize your work ethic, classroom performance etc. (you don't want to come off looking like a slacker ... which is what your GPA and SATs might suggest to some)
If you get good recs, your GPA won't be as much of a problem.

Again ... don't worry about a 3.3/3.4 too much (especially if you come from a top high school) ... schools will overlook it if everything else is in place ... 3.0s from top prep schools get into Ivy's all the time

As far as essays go, some schools care more than others ... they don't have to be great or extra-creative ... just solid and well-written.

As for your schools:

-Have you taken SAT II subject tests?? they are required for some of the schools you have listed (stanford, cal tech). If not, I'd get around to it ASAP.

-U chicago doesn't offer engineering. It's a pretty miserable place to be as well. Geeky students, ugly girls, grade deflation, and overwhelming work. Go to Northwestern (you have a great chance of getting in), go to McCormick school of engineering, and profit.

-UCs will be very, very difficult for you OOS with mediocre GPA.

-Stanford and Cal Tech are obvious reaches ... good luck

Re: College App Question: SAT scores vs. GPA
 

thanks for the lengthy post, but you missread something; i got a 760 on writing, 690 on reading, so i have a 1490 composite without writing. i am not applying to cal tech. chicago i know doesnt have engineering but from everything ive heard it sounds like a really cool school so that is the one case i wouldn't mind doing a physics major and deciding later what i want to do, though it is not a top choice. i have taken two SAT IIs so far, 700 US history and 590 lit (i dont plan to submit lit, i just took it cause i was there to take US history anyway). im taking physics and math IIc december 1st.

Re: College App Question: SAT scores vs. GPA
 

1490 is an excellent score as well. As far as SAT IIs go, The problem with them is that when you submit your scores from the Dec. 1st exam, they will see every SAT you've ever taken on the report (including the 590). Generally, though, most places only consider the best 2 or 3, so I think you're in fine shape.

Good luck with everything ... I'm sure you will get admitted to several of the schools you listed ... I just wouldn't get your hopes up for Stanford or Berkeley.

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1490 is an excellent score as well. As far as SAT IIs go, The problem with them is that when you submit your scores from the Dec. 1st exam, they will see every SAT you've ever taken on the report (including the 590). Generally, though, most places only consider the best 2 or 3, so I think you're in fine shape.

Good luck with everything ... I'm sure you will get admitted to several of the schools you listed ... I just wouldn't get your hopes up for Stanford or Berkeley.

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yeah, i am well aware of my odds at those schools. my first choice that isnt an ultra-reach is harvey mudd, i thought the style of education was really cool even though the city life may as well be amish

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thanks for the lengthy post, but you missread something; i got a 760 on writing, 690 on reading, so i have a 1490 composite without writing. i am not applying to cal tech. chicago i know doesnt have engineering but from everything ive heard it sounds like a really cool school so that is the one case i wouldn't mind doing a physics major and deciding later what i want to do, though it is not a top choice. i have taken two SAT IIs so far, 700 US history and 590 lit (i dont plan to submit lit, i just took it cause i was there to take US history anyway). im taking physics and math IIc december 1st.

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From what I've heard U Chicago is miserable for a lot of people. I go to Northwestern and I know numerous transfers that came here from U Chicago and are much happier. Make sure you visit U Chicago and stay with someone to get a better feel of what it's like. All of my knowledge about the school is from hearing what other people say, so go yourself to make a proper judgment. You might also be interested in Northwestern's engineering program as someone else said.

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im really trying to avoid ultra cold, im only applying to chicago because if for some unknown reason i decide i really want to go into physics there aren't many better places. i really do not intend on going to chicago, its just a random school that got put on list that i ended up keeping just in case

Re: College App Question: SAT scores vs. GPA
 

well then california schools FTW

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well then california schools FTW

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yeah, that is why 9 of my 12 schools are here, the outliers are chicago which we already discussed, carnegie mellon because it is supposed to be quite good, and lafayette where a friend of mine goes as mech-eng major and loves it

Re: College App Question: SAT scores vs. GPA
 

OP, I goto Carnegie Mellon

My HS GPA was a 3.2 or something, (old)SAT was 1450 and I got in, so if your app is normal I'd suspect you'll be accepted. Also know a lot of people with lower SAT scores who are lower. Any questions let me know

edit -- pittsburgh is cold fyi, 30 degrees today

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Yeah Carnegie Mellon is easy to get into if your applying to any field aside from Computer science and drama/music, so engineering shouldn't be hard to get in. My brother majored in comp sci there, which is tied top 3 with Stanford and MIT. A lot of the schools on your list have closed major, so make sure you check out the stats for EE at those school.