TPTK, best line?
 

10-20 in AC. 10 handed for this hand. Game is a little tight right now, maybe 3-4 to flop on average, not much post flop action.

I get A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in MP. EP limps (seen him limp J8o from MP; limping too many hands to be very good). I raise. New player to my immediate left (MP2) (20'sish white kid) 3-bets (its like his 3rd hand). SB folds. BB calls (loose-passive, definite donator). EP calls. I call. 4 to flop for 12.5 SB.

Flop Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. BB checks. EP checks.

What is my best line here and what should I do, given various responses by MP2 and the rest of the table, for the rest of the hand?

Thank you for your comments.

Re: TPTK, best line?
 

20ish white kids are usually very aggro. I like leading here and hoping he raises AK or 3 bet me light w/KQ. Even if he's got KK he's protecting our equity by folding out middle pair hands that would be correct to call 1 bet. I prolly just call here if he raises and check the turn. Not too many free cards to worry about. I'm almost certainly going to showdown w/this hand unless theres some weird action on the turn or river.

Re: TPTK, best line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Even if he's got KK he's protecting our equity by folding out middle pair hands that would be correct to call 1 bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you gain much of anything if KK knockes out middle pair. Almost all the equity goes to him.

Re: TPTK, best line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
20ish white kids are usually very aggro. I like leading here and hoping he raises AK or 3 bet me light w/KQ. Even if he's got KK he's protecting our equity by folding out middle pair hands that would be correct to call 1 bet. I prolly just call here if he raises and check the turn. Not too many free cards to worry about. I'm almost certainly going to showdown w/this hand unless theres some weird action on the turn or river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think checkraising is going to be a lot better here with TPTK+BDFD. On a Q-high board EP raise vs EP 3bet live you're rarely going to see raises with AK and hands that you would hope that raise you, but I think he'll still bet any pocket pair and often AK on the flop here when you check, as well as KQs if that's in his range.

Rob

Re: TPTK, best line?
 

Rob, I don't see the BDFD but I agree with a checkraise. This is a super dry flop. Only if BB managed to dive in with 54s does anyone have more than 3-4 outs against us when we're ahead. I like getting a lot of chips in our pot.

Re: TPTK, best line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Rob, I don't see the BDFD but I agree with a checkraise. This is a super dry flop. Only if BB managed to dive in with 54s does anyone have more than 3-4 outs against us when we're ahead. I like getting a lot of chips in our pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't this the classic way ahead way behin scenario? I think one thing that RobA has to mention is that with the exception of a few people, 3 betting ranges in the Borgata 10 20 game is very very narrow. I think check calling down or betting/calling a raise on the flop then calling down is the only two ways to go. If this turns into a big pot you really have no chance of winning.

Re: TPTK, best line?
 

dr -- if it was heads up, I agree with you. But there are 2 other people in the pot besides the PF 3-bettor, so we want them to donate.

Re: TPTK, best line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
10-20 in AC. 10 handed for this hand. Game is a little tight right now, maybe 3-4 to flop on average, not much post flop action.

I get A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in MP. EP limps (seen him limp J8o from MP; limping too many hands to be very good). I raise. New player to my immediate left (MP2) (20'sish white kid) 3-bets (its like his 3rd hand). SB folds. BB calls (loose-passive, definite donator). EP calls. I call. 4 to flop for 12.5 SB.

Flop Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. BB checks. EP checks.

What is my best line here and what should I do, given various responses by MP2 and the rest of the table, for the rest of the hand?

Thank you for your comments.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you should checkraise and get the donators in there to pad the pot. They will pay the max for their silly hands. Betting will either let the donators draw cheap for one bet, or will just get your HU against a better hand.

Re: TPTK, best line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Even if he's got KK he's protecting our equity by folding out middle pair hands that would be correct to call 1 bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think you gain much of anything if KK knockes out middle pair. Almost all the equity goes to him.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah it only helps us when we improve to 2 pair AND one of the villain's would have improved to trips.

Re: TPTK, best line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
dr -- if it was heads up, I agree with you. But there are 2 other people in the pot besides the PF 3-bettor, so we want them to donate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes we want them to donate. In this situation though I would want them to donate when they are the most incorrect to do so. This would be best achieved by betting the flop. Another thing that may happen (although I admit it wouldn't happen very often) is that the flop gets checked through, which would really suck.

Re: TPTK, best line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
dr -- if it was heads up, I agree with you. But there are 2 other people in the pot besides the PF 3-bettor, so we want them to donate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes we want them to donate. In this situation though I would want them to donate when they are the most incorrect to do so. This would be best achieved by betting the flop. Another thing that may happen (although I admit it wouldn't happen very often) is that the flop gets checked through, which would really suck.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's more incorrect to get them to put in two bets with the worst hand than one. Since getting checked through admittedly doesn't happen very often, it's worth the risk to get two.

Also, the flop getting checked through isn't a big problem. It's a drawless board and nobody has lots of outs against you.

Re: TPTK, best line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
dr -- if it was heads up, I agree with you. But there are 2 other people in the pot besides the PF 3-bettor, so we want them to donate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes we want them to donate. In this situation though I would want them to donate when they are the most incorrect to do so. This would be best achieved by betting the flop. Another thing that may happen (although I admit it wouldn't happen very often) is that the flop gets checked through, which would really suck.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's more incorrect to get them to put in two bets with the worst hand than one. Since getting checked through admittedly doesn't happen very often, it's worth the risk to get two.

Also, the flop getting checked through isn't a big problem. It's a drawless board and nobody has lots of outs against you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Two bets cold would be a bigger mistake, not one then another one coming back when you check raise the flop with AQ.

Re: TPTK, best line?
 

They're a lot less likely to donate 2 bets cold than 1 bet at a time.

Re: TPTK, best line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
dr -- if it was heads up, I agree with you. But there are 2 other people in the pot besides the PF 3-bettor, so we want them to donate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes we want them to donate. In this situation though I would want them to donate when they are the most incorrect to do so. This would be best achieved by betting the flop. Another thing that may happen (although I admit it wouldn't happen very often) is that the flop gets checked through, which would really suck.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's more incorrect to get them to put in two bets with the worst hand than one. Since getting checked through admittedly doesn't happen very often, it's worth the risk to get two.

Also, the flop getting checked through isn't a big problem. It's a drawless board and nobody has lots of outs against you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Two bets cold would be a bigger mistake, not one then another one coming back when you check raise the flop with AQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps in some theoretical sense, but that mistake is far less common and the net result of their error is the same in both cases.

However, if your donk gets raised, you're far more likely against a better hand and you've put yourself in a worse position.

Re: TPTK, best line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
dr -- if it was heads up, I agree with you. But there are 2 other people in the pot besides the PF 3-bettor, so we want them to donate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes we want them to donate. In this situation though I would want them to donate when they are the most incorrect to do so. This would be best achieved by betting the flop. Another thing that may happen (although I admit it wouldn't happen very often) is that the flop gets checked through, which would really suck.

[/ QUOTE ]

u have you realize that villains putting in 2 bets one at a time on the flop is just as bad for them as putting in 2 bets at the same time on the flop.
CR all day and 2x on sundays.
betting the flop will either get everyone in for one bet or it will get you heads up vs a better hand.

Re: TPTK, best line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Rob, I don't see the BDFD but I agree with a checkraise. This is a super dry flop. Only if BB managed to dive in with 54s does anyone have more than 3-4 outs against us when we're ahead. I like getting a lot of chips in our pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Weird, I swear when I first saw this the post said A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Anyway I still like a checkraise.

Rob

Re: TPTK, best line?
 

I really appreciate everyone's comments.

Entity, PJ, Snowball and AaronW all said CR. Ssmallz (i'm suprised cuz you seem to like to CR a lot) and DRBK2 said bet out.

I bet out the flop, Villain called, one doanator called, and the other folded.

The Turn was a brick. Check to me, I bet, fold, fold. It felt like a pretty small pot i was raking in considering the pre-flop action, and how good the flop was for me.

My default in most situations when I'm confused is to not be tricky, and I consider CR more tricky than betting out. I also assumed the Villain behind me had AK. And I assumed that he would check his AK if I checked. (I would in that spot a decent amount). So I bet. When he folded on the turn he said "AQ?". I think he did have AK.

My thinking was sort of paranoid/overly negative in thinking "he has AK and he's gonna check, so I better bet now or I'm screwed". I should have thought he has TT (6), JJ (6) and AK (12). And he's got AA (3), KK (6), QQ (3). (I know I'm leaving out AJs, KQs, 99, and AQ but those are less likely.) So he's got 24 combos I'm WA, and he's gonna bet these maybe 3/4 of the time (TT and JJ always, AK 50%). And he's got only 12 combos that I'm WB. I think that makes it a clear CR. It seems a fine play against the villain's range and probable action, but more importanly I'm going to pull in a lot, lot more of the donator money with the CR.

A lot of you guys made that point. I thought i'd spell it out one more time. Thanks for your good comments.

Re: TPTK, best line?
 

Quote:

Rob, I don't see the BDFD but I agree with a checkraise. This is a super dry flop. Only if BB managed to dive in with 54s does anyone have more than 3-4 outs against us when we're ahead. I like getting a lot of chips in our pot.



Weird, I swear when I first saw this the post said AQ. Anyway I still like a checkraise.

Rob

The BDFD is very back door. You have to want to see it. Usually only getting there by 6th street [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: TPTK, best line?
 

this is an auto c'r/call down if 3 bet for me.

Barron

Re: TPTK, best line?
 

Normally in these cases, you simply want to get HU vs. a guy who hopefully has AK or a lower pocket pair than Queens. But this is a pretty dry board, so your immediate concern is not about who is drawing to what. It's simply "am I ahead or not?".

I actually like check raising the flop here. Even is some others get trapped in the middle, it's not really too bad for you is it?

If he 3-bets the flop then you're in a tough spot (maybe calldown land?) It's hard to know how to play vs unknown players and I usually will not fold TPTK on board like this.

Re: TPTK, best line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't this the classic way ahead way behin scenario?

[/ QUOTE ]

If it were heads up. I'd check raise this and I'm seeing a showdown unless the action gets really heavy.

Re: TPTK, best line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
My thinking was sort of paranoid/overly negative in thinking "he has AK and he's gonna check, so I better bet now or I'm screwed". I should have thought he has TT (6), JJ (6) and AK (12). And he's got AA (3), KK (6), QQ (1) . (I know I'm leaving out AJs, KQs, 99, and AQ but those are less likely.) So he's got 24 combos I'm WA, and he's gonna bet these maybe 3/4 of the time (TT and JJ always, AK 50%). And he's got only 10 combos that I'm WB.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with leading out in a WA/WB situation after having raised pre-flop is that you make your hand obvious and easy to play against. He can call once and see if you bet out the turn when he is behind for a fairly easy fold, and he can wait to pop you until the turn or river when he is ahead.

You are in ideal position for the flop C/R. If he re-raises and bets the turn you may even be able to get away from the hand UI.

If he checks through the flop, this isn't so bad either. It makes everybody else's gut shot draw they hit on the turn worse to draw to when you bet out the turn. And you may draw a semi-bluff bet from BB or EP with a lower pair.

Re: TPTK, best line?
 

Rob,

After talkin to surdoc and reading the other responses, I'm on teh c/r'ing camp. I think its truly superior to betting out b/c there are a lot of hands this guy w/c-bet with that we are ahead of and we can trap another player drawing slim to dead

Re: TPTK, best line?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Rob,

After talkin to surdoc and reading the other responses, I'm on teh c/r'ing camp. I think its truly superior to betting out b/c there are a lot of hands this guy w/c-bet with that we are ahead of and we can trap another player drawing slim to dead

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks for the comment. that is the consensus take home point here. C/R b/c villain will be betting TT, JJ and most importantly, AK, enough.