Razz 4th street question
 

Razz ($10/$20), Ante $1, Bring-In $3 (converter)

3rd Street - (0.50 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 8: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (4.80 SB)

Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___...
Seat 5: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K:heart

Is this a bet or check here generally? i assume hes calling a bet so would it make sense to bet if my edge is pretty minimal?

Re: Razz 4th street question
 

This partially depends on his tendencies. Your edge here is not great but the next street is probably going to bring some changes. Some of those changes will be very straightforward whether you bet here or not, and some will be difficult.

* He'll have position on you the whole hand unless you pair or also hit a K
* some players will often call 5th if there is a bet on 4th
* lots of players will make awful calls on 4th if you both brick again. Like if you brick a J on 5th and he hits a Q, he might call 5th even though he's now waaaaay behind (he needs 2 cards to win)
* If he catches well on 5th and you catch a brick, it's a tough situation

I often check here. I am somewhat more punitive if he gets frisky and bets, I might raise. If he is a player who will call every street, provided that he can pull ahead on the next street, regardless of pot size, I will usually wait for 5th (to make such a call very wrong on 5th)

I often get accused of nazi-ism on this last bit, but using a hand converter is very appreciated.

Re: Razz 4th street question
 

Your edge here is about 60:40 by the way.

Re: Razz 4th street question
 

[ QUOTE ]
This partially depends on his tendencies. Your edge here is not great but the next street is probably going to bring some changes. Some of those changes will be very straightforward whether you bet here or not, and some will be difficult.

* He'll have position on you the whole hand unless you pair or also hit a K
* some players will often call 5th if there is a bet on 4th
* lots of players will make awful calls on 4th if you both brick again. Like if you brick a J on 5th and he hits a Q, he might call 5th even though he's now waaaaay behind (he needs 2 cards to win)
* If he catches well on 5th and you catch a brick, it's a tough situation

I often check here. I am somewhat more punitive if he gets frisky and bets, I might raise. If he is a player who will call every street, provided that he can pull ahead on the next street, regardless of pot size, I will usually wait for 5th (to make such a call very wrong on 5th)

I often get accused of nazi-ism on this last bit, but using a hand converter is very appreciated.

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually bet hands where my brick is 2 pips under his but not 1 (bet J here but not Q) unless I have reason to believe my 3 card hand is significantly worse than his (ie I was stealing). I might bet one under if my hand is perhaps significantly better since I may want to peel 5th anyway depending on what happens.

-ChipsAhoya

Re: Razz 4th street question
 

I think most people would bet. My style would be generally to check, so that villain won't be sure of how strong my hand is, and to make me less committed.

The flat call on 3rd is standard, but you could also reraise the 6 with a 7 low and a live door card.

Re: Razz 4th street question
 

I bet here for a few reasons. 1, a ten is "barely a brick" and he's as bricky as it gets. 2, he probably expects you to so not betting might mean to him there is something wrong with your hand, like you are playing a hidden pair and he might not fold just for that reason. 3, there might be more wrong with his hand than the K and he might fold to the bet seeing it as repping a very strong hand 4, a lot of razz players just won't call a K,Q,J on 4th.

No free cards.

Re: Razz 4th street question
 

Worst-case scenario is if the other guy has A2 in the hole. This gives you a .544/.456 edge. Your edge may be small, but it's still an edge. I don't see how checking here will lead to greater value down the road. Get your money in there.

Re: Razz 4th street question
 

[ QUOTE ]
2, he probably expects you to so not betting might mean to him there is something wrong with your hand, like you are playing a hidden pair and he might not fold just for that reason. 3, there might be more wrong with his hand than the K and he might fold to the bet seeing it as repping a very strong hand

[/ QUOTE ]

These are the main reasons I'd check. It's better for me if he thinks my hand is crappier than it looks, and him not folding is the desired result. If he has a hidden pair or brick I am very happy to let him see 5th st.

The real beauty is when I check here and my opponent bets. Now I can either pop him or let him joust at it on 5th too. Soooo many times people will get locked into a hand like this way behind from 5th on.

Re: Razz 4th street question
 

[ QUOTE ]
These are the main reasons I'd check. ...
The real beauty is when I check here and my opponent bets.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, and the real ugly here is when that happens and you get sucked-out on the river when he won't fold to your better-looking board that ends up not making your hand. Every choice at this point has benefits and perils.

Re: Razz 4th street question
 

So, tell me - what's the difference between your opponent betting, and you calling, and you betting and your opponent calling.

For every hand you can show me where you bet your T and your opponent folds his K, I'll show you 20 where he calls.

So, given that I think he calls here almost all the time, the difference is, in one case, sometimes he'll put you on pocket-nothing and donk off his chips. Given that you have the edge, this is fine. Absolutely there's a risk.

Also, you are not required to bet if things go wrong on 5th/6th, nor are you required to bluff the river.

Re: Razz 4th street question
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, you are not required to bet if things go wrong on 5th/6th, nor are you required to bluff the river.

[/ QUOTE ]
You aren't required to do anything. Hooray for free will.

Re: Razz 4th street question
 

You all seem to consider that villain would call a bet here. I wouldn't make that call if I was him, but seeing you agreeing on the fact he will, I was wondering, would this be a good call ?
I think the chances that villain will become a favorite on fifth are very thin, and the pot odds are not that great.
Besides the times where villain will have to keep chasing on fifth will very likely cost more than what an occasionnal marginally favorite hand will bring him.
Am I wrong ?

Re: Razz 4th street question
 

Sklansky on Poker, page #121. Bet. Get your money in there.

If however you caught something like a K and the villain paired then you should check because you will likely be first to act on future streets.

Re: Razz 4th street question
 

[ QUOTE ]
You all seem to consider that villain would call a bet here.

[/ QUOTE ]More people call bricks at micro stakes, but I think he'd fold, because I would unless my downcards were A2, maybe.

Re: Razz 4th street question
 

If both you and your opponent brick, you should call if he bets. This is an extreme case because your brick is not so bad and his is awful, but by no means do I think folding is the right thing to do in a pot this size for the villain.

Let's examine the options, and see if we can give the opponent a chance to make a mistake:

* We bet
- he calls - is this a mistake? I don't think so (it's close) - a bet is ALWAYS correct if he will call 5th no matter what comes, because there's an extra bet on 5th.
- he folds - is this a mistake? Maybe a little (it's close th ough)

* We check
- he bets - is this a mistake - YES
* he checks - is this a mistake - NO but it might lead to him making a mistake on 5th

As far as I can see, checking is a small mistake on our part, but it's almost the only way we can get him to make a mistake now or on 5th. I'd probably bet much of the time and check the rest of the time, betting maybe 2/3 of the time.

Re: Razz 4th street question
 

With the action on third street, presumably the other guy started with a real hand. He's also getting very high current pot odds, and he's not that far behind. Folding would be insane on his part.

Re: Razz 4th street question
 

Both hands are pretty much face up already based on 3rd street action. Villain probably has a 3-card 6, and OP raised into a bunch of low cards, so he is expected to have about what he has.

OP has a slight edge on 4th, but is OOP. As someone said, Sklansky says bet. You don't lose much by checking, but you really don't gain much deception.

Re: Razz 4th street question
 

[ QUOTE ]
Both hands are pretty much face up already based on 3rd street action. Villain probably has a 3-card 6, and OP raised into a bunch of low cards, so he is expected to have about what he has.

OP has a slight edge on 4th, but is OOP. As someone said, Sklansky says bet. You don't lose much by checking, but you really don't gain much deception.

[/ QUOTE ]
This spot isn't so much about deception (which I agree you have very little of either way) as it is about 5th st play. If you're inclined to make bad folds on 5th st, you should check since betting 4th only gains you 0.2 bet units (or SB) on average but betting out and then folding on 5th loses you a whole bet unit. If you're inclined to make bad calls on 5th, then betting will pump the pot size up to where your bad calls no longer look so bad (in addition to the small immediate EV).

Re: Razz 4th street question
 

The deception I speak of comes only from players who will decide your hand sucked on 3rd if you check 4th. Maybe this is a stakes difference, I know off the top of my head dozens of players who will either bet 4th if I check, or will bet 5th if I check 4th. I purposefully play with those guys a lot.

Since betting 4th on average makes you .1bb, you only need to be able to trick your opponent into putting an extra bb into the pot 10% of the time.

I don't always check, but I don't always bet, either. It really depends on what my opponent is like. I'm more inclined to check if he's bad, and bet if he's not.

Re: Razz 4th street question
 

ok, i think this is marginal. With two bets going in on 3rd, i think i would bet out even if i was 100% sure to get called. it makes for some tough decisions on 5th, but with two bets going in on 3rd i dont really want to brick - fold on 5th. this way i am forced to go to 6th even with a 10 draw vs a 6 draw and make a decison about whether the villain has paired or made a hand then. this approach will lead to big swings but hey this is razz right?

if you dont want such big swings take the approach endorsed by Tom McEvoy and others - give the free card on 4th to allow a fold if you dont like how its looking on 5th. The point of the check is to make it easier to release the hand rather than gain deception. I agree with this approach if there wasnt much money in on 3rd st.

The totally classy approach imho would be to bet on 4th then fold on 5th if you think you have slipped behind to a smooth draw. This however takes more discipline than i can usually muster, generally i'm like - 'i'm not drawing dead, ill take another card'.

Re: Razz 4th street question
 

I would bet this. I play Razz horribly, so I figure anytime that I'm sure I have an edge, I will take it, even if it is small.

I can't count on "out-playing" my opponents in the hand later. I'll be the one making bad calls later in the hand. Might as well give myself better odds to chase [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]