Short Poker Essay: How to get broke, how to get rich NLTRN
 

I don't want to get philosophical in here today or waste anybody's time. I just want to write a short paragraph or two about something very important to poker, especially in HUSNG. The most important thing that I've learned in this game has come through various downswings that I've had. I've always rebounded from these downswings, but through them I've learned one thing that is soooooo crucial to being a good poker player. Its so crucial, that if you cannot do it, you WILL NOT BE A WINNING PLAYER LONG-TERM.

So what is this secret? Its very simple. If you focus on results or worry about reaching some kind of $$ goal, you will not make it. To be successful in poker, you have to focus on making good decisions. Making good poker decisions has to be your goal, and believe me, its where the fun in this game really lies.

As a kid i was interested in getting big and tough to defend myself and be a good athlete so i started lifting weights. I remember getting frustrated because i wasn't really getting big fast enough. A wise man told me, if you focus on getting big, you'll never get there....you have to focus on getting "stronger" and feeling better, and enjoy that process of development. Then the side effect will be that you will be a bigger man. This is the same concept that I am trying to outline here today.

Making good poker decisions is what we all must focus on. Every match, every hand, every street...flop/turn/river. I can honestly say that I probably need to make more money than anybody in this forum (where i live i need to make 25K/month to do ok), and this often distracts me from focusing on what is really important: Making great decisions and not worrying about the outcomes.

Making good decisions is fun and profitable, worrying about results and making $ is not fun and not profitable.

Thanks to cwar for helping me see the light on this. I've no idea how a 20-yr old like him can see the light around this so quickly, and how a 31-yr old like me struggled so long to get it.

Indy

Re: Short Poker Essay: How to get broke, how to get rich
 

So true.

Re: Short Poker Essay: How to get broke, how to get rich
 

agree 100% - but it's easier said than done

Re: Short Poker Essay: How to get broke, how to get rich
 

Very good post.

Half your household needs to bring in 300k a year? Jeeze.

Also, Cwar must have been your father in another lifetime. That is all.

Re: Short Poker Essay: How to get broke, how to get rich
 

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So true.

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I know it seems like "duh" this is just common sense. But what I'm saying here is that you have to get yourself ADDICTED to making good decisions. Otherwise you will be miserable and only marginally profitable at best.

If you sit down and say to yourself, "Im going to play until I make 500 bucks or whatever" you are headed down a dead end road. Sure, you may make 500 THAT DAY, but you will soon have a massive downswing because you are focusing on the wrong thing.

I hope I've helped someone with this today. Poker is not easy and the greatest part of your poker success will have little to do with your actual "skills". It will mostly come from your ability to deal with the psychology and your maturity level in the game.

Indy

Re: Short Poker Essay: How to get broke, how to get rich
 

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Very good post.

Half your household needs to bring in 300k a year? Jeeze.

Also, Cwar must have been your father in another lifetime. That is all.

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No. If my wife and I combined brought in <300K/yr we'd need to sell our house. That's not really the point here, I'm just saying that If I can focus on good decisions with my financial situation, everybody in here should be able to.

Re: Short Poker Essay: How to get broke, how to get rich
 

I thought the opposite would be true.

The average job a person holds in this forum is probably worth like < 10% of what you make a year. I would think that it would be easier to play poker knowing that you have a 6 figure job and even if you somehow had to sell your house you would still be making 6 figures a year. Not many can really say that in this forum.

You also had the discipline to go through pretty tough schooling (I think) so you obviously know you can grind it out for hours.

That, and being 31 and having experienced more than most people on this forum should give you more confidence than the average player on this forum.

All in all I'd imagine you would be more suited to be successful at this game than most people.

Put it another way, if I took your credentials and compared them to 5 random people in this forum I would almost certainly choose you 1st or 2nd in almost any situation as somebody I would bet/invest in being most successful in this game out of the 5.

Re: Short Poker Essay: How to get broke, how to get rich
 

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I thought the opposite would be true.

The average job a person holds in this forum is probably worth like < 10% of what you make a year. I would think that it would be easier to play poker knowing that you have a 6 figure job and even if you somehow had to sell your house you would still be making 6 figures a year. Not many can really say that in this forum.

You also had the discipline to go through pretty tough schooling (I think) so you obviously know you can grind it out for hours.

That, and being 31 and having experienced more than most people on this forum should give you more confidence than the average player on this forum.

All in all I'd imagine you would be more suited to be successful at this game than most people.

Put it another way, if I took your credentials and compared them to 5 random people in this forum I would almost certainly choose you 1st or 2nd in almost any situation as somebody I would bet/invest in being most successful in this game out of the 5.

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Chicago, I am more profitable than most players here and yes a lot of it has to do with my drive and ability, but the majority of it has to do with my brutal honesty. This is what makes me so successful, while at the same time so hated in 2+2 because others do not want to hear my brutal honesty.

And as for the money part, B.I.G was right: "Mo money, mo problems." I was 10x happier when I was broke growing up in the housing projects in North Carolina than I am now living in California in a >1 million dollar home.

Indy

Re: Short Poker Essay: How to get broke, how to get rich
 

I thought everyone liked you Indy. It is all good points. I think it is the one concept that the TV Pros talk about that is true, that poker is about making decisions. The pots are a side effect.

Re: Short Poker Essay: How to get broke, how to get rich
 

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I thought everyone liked you Indy. It is all good points. I think it is the one concept that the TV Pros talk about that is true, that poker is about making decisions. The pots are a side effect.

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Yah its so true. And those "Pros" that are most successful are the ones that focus on good decisions, and really love the game. The guys that score big once or whatever often don't have this deep understanding and either end up broke or just fade away.

I've been posting here for years, and people dont hate me but I am often not well-received. Its not that important to me, and I dont wanna derail what's important in this thread:

Become addicted to making good decisions, or go broke.

Indy

Re: Short Poker Essay: How to get broke, how to get rich
 

I don't understand how brutal honesty on the forums or with yourself is > than drive and ability. I'm not saying it isn't, I'm just saying I don't understand how it is.

daveT, I think that concept is more regularly preached by the online world than the television world. You get more of the "I put him on blah blah so I called" in the live world, or used to IMO. But obviously the better players in both games are pretty much the same players, or moving more towards that and they all share this concept I'm sure.

Edit: I don't mean to get off topic with these posts, it's just I don't have a ton to say about most of your post, it's spot on and "good post" pretty much sums it up.

Re: Short Poker Essay: How to get broke, how to get rich
 

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I don't understand how brutal honesty on the forums or with yourself is > than drive and ability. I'm not saying it isn't, I'm just saying I don't understand how it is.

daveT, I think that concept is more regularly preached by the online world than the television world. You get more of the "I put him on blah blah so I called" in the live world, or used to IMO. But obviously the better players in both games are pretty much the same players, or moving more towards that and they all share this concept I'm sure.

Edit: I don't mean to get off topic with these posts, it's just I don't have a ton to say about most of your post, it's spot on and "good post" pretty much sums it up.

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Yah i see the potential confusion with that statement. I guess what I mean is that on average, the TRUE poker skill difference between a winning and losing player really isn't so related to ability. I think its the other stuff that really makes up the difference. This "other stuff" is the kind of stuff Im talking about here.

Indy (I would imagine that there are smarter, more skillful poker players that make less than me in this game)

Re: Short Poker Essay: How to get broke, how to get rich
 

Thank you! You don't know how bad I needed to hear this

Re: Short Poker Essay: How to get broke, how to get rich
 

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Thank you! You don't know how bad I needed to hear this

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We all do. I think we so easily forget this and just grind without really thinking about our goals in the game or what the hell it is that we are trying to accomplish.

Im lucky that I have a full-time staking deal with cwar and he constantly pounds this wisdom into me. Whenever I have a downswing we immediately discuss why, and that helps me rebound easily and learn from my misakes, while most guys just keep swinging downward and fail to be honest about it.

Indy

Re: Short Poker Essay: How to get broke, how to get rich
 

So basically what you're saying is the mental aspect is much greater than the skill aspect of the game.

It's tough for me personally to feel confident that either is more important, you can't win without both obviously.

It's just hard because confidence and skill go hand in hand. The better I am at this game the more confident I get.

I guess it depends on what a person's definition of skill is. If his definition is making money short term, then as you said he's not going to do as well as he should in this game. I wouldn't go as far as to say he will go broke, but he will definitely not maximize his profits.

Re: Short Poker Essay: How to get broke, how to get rich
 

Well, if I sat you and phil ivey down and gave you an hour to think about a poker decision, I dont think his answer on average would be so much greater than yours. What I do believe, however, is that he is going to be better at implementation and psychology than you or me, as well as many other things.

Just knowing what to do in a poker hand isn't even enough to be a profitable player. We must implement it CONSISTENTLY, and that's a different skill altogether. This is why we must get ourselves addicted to making good decisions, because otherwise we will lose focus on what we are doing.

Re: Short Poker Essay: How to get broke, how to get rich
 

i love you for this.

Re: Short Poker Essay: How to get broke, how to get rich
 

This made me feel so warm inside, I don't need a hug any more.

Barry
PS: being ADDICTED to making good decisions, yes, well put. Being addicted to THINKING about your POSTS helps. Now, if I can become addicting to making good decisions re: women, life, food, efficient pick up lines, etc., things may improve besides my game.

Barry

Re: Short Poker Essay: How to get broke, how to get rich
 

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So true.

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I know it seems like "duh" this is just common sense. But what I'm saying here is that you have to get yourself ADDICTED to making good decisions. Otherwise you will be miserable and only marginally profitable at best.

If you sit down and say to yourself, "Im going to play until I make 500 bucks or whatever" you are headed down a dead end road. Sure, you may make 500 THAT DAY, but you will soon have a massive downswing because you are focusing on the wrong thing.

I hope I've helped someone with this today. Poker is not easy and the greatest part of your poker success will have little to do with your actual "skills". It will mostly come from your ability to deal with the psychology and your maturity level in the game.

Indy

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I agree completely. I just didn't have much to say about your OP, although it's very intelligent.

I'm at the stage where I value making the correct decision over winning the pot. And it really does have a huge effect. Suddenly, every session becomes either a big win or at least a small win, because you grade yourself based on your decision-making. I suppose if you make lots of bad decisions you might not be all that happy, but when you've got some experience, you eventually gain the confidence to trust yourself, and not second-guess yourself irrationally.

I think a large part of what helped me get to this way of thinking is that I went to college and got a degree in mathematics. Dealing with probability as much as I have, you realize that one instance doesn't mean anything, etc. and it's the longrun you have to look out for. Once you realize that, it's foolish to think of anything other than making the most +EV decisions you can.

Re: Short Poker Essay: How to get broke, how to get rich
 

If we play x hours per day, we expect to earn $y. If we make that great, if we go under, that sucks, but we will get it soon, if we go over, then brace for S*.

There is no way to beat the hourly expectation. It's a job like any other, just that the actual pay-check isn't consistent week to week.

Re: Short Poker Essay: How to get broke, how to get rich
 

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So true.

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I know it seems like "duh" this is just common sense. But what I'm saying here is that you have to get yourself ADDICTED to making good decisions. Otherwise you will be miserable and only marginally profitable at best.

If you sit down and say to yourself, "Im going to play until I make 500 bucks or whatever" you are headed down a dead end road. Sure, you may make 500 THAT DAY, but you will soon have a massive downswing because you are focusing on the wrong thing.

I hope I've helped someone with this today. Poker is not easy and the greatest part of your poker success will have little to do with your actual "skills". It will mostly come from your ability to deal with the psychology and your maturity level in the game.

Indy

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I agree completely. I just didn't have much to say about your OP, although it's very intelligent.

I'm at the stage where I value making the correct decision over winning the pot. And it really does have a huge effect. Suddenly, every session becomes either a big win or at least a small win, because you grade yourself based on your decision-making. I suppose if you make lots of bad decisions you might not be all that happy, but when you've got some experience, you eventually gain the confidence to trust yourself, and not second-guess yourself irrationally.

I think a large part of what helped me get to this way of thinking is that I went to college and got a degree in mathematics. Dealing with probability as much as I have, you realize that one instance doesn't mean anything, etc. and it's the longrun you have to look out for. Once you realize that, it's foolish to think of anything other than making the most +EV decisions you can.

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Very good here. If you focus on the decisions and you constantly improve, you will have no choice but to be a very strong poker player in a few years time. I just wish I hadn't wasted so much time in poker over the past 4 years. I've only recently (say 6 months ago) gotten VERY serious about pwning and developing my game.

At the end of the day, I feel that I am a an implied multi-millionare because of my decision-making philosophy.

Indy

Re: Short Poker Essay: How to get broke, how to get rich
 

I will add my 2 cents...

Be careful at the volume of hands you play. My A game lasts for about 500 hands per session. I can say with a lot of confidence that there aren't many people I can't beat when playing my A-game. I have been focusing way too much on volume than quality and it has hurt my game. Have the discipline to limit your sessions to a tolerable number, take a nice break (exercise is huge in between sessions imo) and hop back on the horse when you are feeling fresh.

The wisest words I've ever heard related to poker came from 2+2's resident LimiDonk Schneids. He said that the best players don't have the best A-game, they just play their A-game for longer periods of time than most.

Just to play Devil's advocate, I think results are important. Furthermore, I think understanding variance is important. If you are running bad and you know it's normal it's much easier to tolerate than if you have no clue. As some of you know I had a terrible downswing (which I'm not fully out of, but healthily along my way to robustoville).

I wanted to understand variance and to know that what I went through was a very rare downswing. Upon review I think bad play made up a larger chunk than I originally gave credit to, but I had one day where I had no less than 20 totally disgusting situations (coolers and suckouts).

Even more recently I took a trip to Vegas and was playing at Caesar's Palace. I hit a BBJ hand at the only Harrah's owned casino that didn't have a bad beat jackpot. Not only that, but my hand qualified for even the most difficult to hit bad beat jackpots (I lost with quad aces using both my cards, to a royal using both his cards).

Combined with my $25kish bad beat put on me during the FTP IronMan competition (explained in one of the LC threads) I can categorically say that I run worse than most. That brings me some comfort because I now understand the nature of variance and to be a winning player even given the crap that has been slung my way it builds my confidence and encourages me to continue playing.

Re: Short Poker Essay: How to get broke, how to get rich
 

OMG I just dominated steel trader and he won....and i dont even care! LOL. I made perfect decisions. Results are for little girls.

Indy

Re: Short Poker Essay: How to get broke, how to get rich
 

what level husngs would u need to play to make >25k a month consistently?

Re: Short Poker Essay: How to get broke, how to get rich
 

wp (wise post) sir

Re: Short Poker Essay: How to get broke, how to get rich
 

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what level husngs would u need to play to make >25k a month consistently?

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i think he tries to grind the $100 HU for 2000 a month and his wife brings in 23k lol

Re: Short Poker Essay: How to get broke, how to get rich
 

lol sounds like a good plan to me

Re: Short Poker Essay: How to get broke, how to get rich
 

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what level husngs would u need to play to make >25k a month consistently?

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Not a single HUSNG player has made 25k a month consistently.

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what level husngs would u need to play to make >25k a month consistently?

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i think he tries to grind the $100 HU for 2000 a month and his wife brings in 23k lol

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LOL. Of course I dont make 25K/month at HUSNG. Its more like 4-6K/month. Even still, there are guys like livb who on full tilt prolly make 25K/month. Camel used to also.

Indy

Re: Short Poker Essay: How to get broke, how to get rich
 

Even livb, the current SS leader of total profit this year, has only (lol @ only) made > 25k 5 times this year in 10 months. I wouldn't call that consistent, obviously it's very good, but I don't think anybody consistently makes 25k a month at husngs.

He's also won 120k this month it says. Pretty sick.

Re: Short Poker Essay: How to get broke, how to get rich
 

so even at the highest level they don't make 25k a month why not just play cash

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so even at the highest level they don't make 25k a month why not just play cash

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because i dont enjoy cash as much:) But ur right, cash is better at the highest levels. I just dont care for it.

Indy

Re: Short Poker Essay: How to get broke, how to get rich
 

great post indy... very intuitive but a simple concept we all need to take ALOT away from. Many times it's the little things holding us back, and this mindset truly is the winning way, so again, you hit on something I think this forum has needed reminding of, great job

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so even at the highest level they don't make 25k a month why not just play cash

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Not too many people make 300k a year in HU cash either, do they?

Re: Short Poker Essay: How to get broke, how to get rich
 

good post indiana. i think it basically just comes down to a way of losing focus on your actual play... i've been guilty of it quite a few times myself. when you start being overly concerned with results, or even worse, the volume that you play, it's easy to get in the habit of breezing through hu sng's 1 after another with the mentality that you're "grinding". for me personally i've fallen victim to that by talking to cash players who talk about playing a sick amount of hands per month. it makes me feel like "damn, i need to get on my grind" but when it comes down to it, you can't really relate grinding cash to grinding hu sng's- and if you do it's a recipe for disaster. the best thing to do is be intent solely on playing really good and focusing on every decision, not getting ahead of yourself by thinking about "the big picture", because without taking it 1 step at a time there is no "big picture" at the end. it's like that proverb "there is surely nothing other than the single purpose of the moment. a man's whole life is a succession of moment after moment. if one fully understands the present moment, there is nothing left to do, and nothing else to pursue."

realistically though, we all want to make money in poker, and if you take out that concern all together it's probably even more of a slippery slope than being overly concerned with it, because it's an easy way to excuse yourself from having poor results. so as always, there's 2 sides to that coin... but it's not all that hard to balance though if you're practical about it

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also, shipurstack is 100% on the money. compared to what their edge would be in cash, any exceptionally good hu player loses mass amounts of equity playing hu sng's. all you have to do is look at the realistic roi's the top players make long-term and compare it to the ptbb/100 and hourlies standard players make at mid stakes cash. hu sng's are great if you're trying to build a roll and gravitate up the ladder, but once you reach a level where you're settled, they're not the best thing to grind if you're really trying to make a lot of money from poker. believe me, i've wasted a lot of my time in them before i accepted that fact.

Re: Short Poker Essay: How to get broke, how to get rich
 

Snorer, what level did you max out at before you realized it was more +EV to play HU cash? 200 or 500s?

Also, I know you play a lot of regular speed games. Do you think for a very good turbo player it may be awhile longer until it's more +EV to play hu cash? I'm not really sure what the hourlies are for some of the mid level HU cash players and what kind of skills it takes to get there compared to Husngs.

Re: Short Poker Essay: How to get broke, how to get rich
 

Snorer makes a good point. I hope that Tnixon rings in on how he can stay focused on three tables 10 hours a day.

Re: Short Poker Essay: How to get broke, how to get rich
 

I thought Tnixon was the one that went busto like 4 times. Maybe I'm thinking of someone else.

Re: Short Poker Essay: How to get broke, how to get rich
 

Wish I could say that.