The Pre Flop Raise
 

I have a theory question about the Pre Flop Raise.

In the game of NLHE is there really any math or logic that dictates the 3 bet or pot size PF raise that the majority of players use?

Is it really wrong to min raise or is it just style?

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Now that I have asked my question I'll state what I have been doing and why I have this question.

IN online tournaments I have been experimenting with min raising only PF. I have been a little shocked by the results.

First thing I noticed is that min raising doesnt seem to encourage poeple to call as one would think. I am getting about the same action to the flop as I do when I 3 bet. The BB is folding surprisingly often. The action I do get is the kind I want. Loose calls a small leaks before they get away. Or I get re-popped by something who thinks my min raise is weakness (I havent changed my conservative hand requirements so it rarely is)

Next I notice that I am not being put all-in (and having to fold) post flop after I bet as much as I was before. I am going to showdown with the best hand more often without having to commit all my chips. Play on every street is a little more chess like. The pot size is waaay easier to controll.

When I run into one of the player types who is a bet-pot PF and every street evey hand they play I am getting away cheap or breaking them.

I am getting to see and play waaay more flops than I was when I was 3 betting.

Lastly I am cashing waaay more frequently.

In summery, is it wrong to min raise and small ball every hand? Should I go back to the 3 bet/betpot/all-in game everyone else is playing? People in the games have been calling me a min raising donk. Ha-Ha [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Hard to care when it seems to be working so well for me.

Re: The Pre Flop Raise
 

Bump. Was hoping to see one of the experts weigh in on this by now. Ferguson mini raises all the time pf. Lee Watkinson seems to do it about half the time. Must be some logic to it.

I'm also wondering if it is ever a good play to mini-raise to sweeten the pot after several have entered and you have a low pair. Say you're in a tourney where blinds are 50/100, blinds and 4 others limp, you're on the button with 33, by mini raising you have t1200 in the pot instead of t600 and with a bigger pot at stake people are more willing to call you with 2nd best hands after you flop a set.

Re: The Pre Flop Raise
 

The problem I find with mini-raising is that it's increasingly more difficult to put them on a hand postflop when you get called (especially when the BB calls) . I prefer raising 3x the bb which gives me that extra fold equity and allows me to define a players hand better .

In many cases , I may even raise to 4x the bb if I expect to be called often from behind . So in general , you should be willing to increase your size raise with your value hands at a loose calling table .

If the table is incorrectly calling with many hands when you make 2x raises but they're correctly folding with many hands when you make 3-x raises then you should choose the former . If the opposite is true , then you should choose the latter .

So the best answer I could give you is to play around with different raises and see what works best for that particular session .

Re: The Pre Flop Raise
 

If I understand you right, Jay, your saying that it is indeed a matter of style and adjustment for player types and table dynamics. Not something that can be determined to be correct or incorrect by way of math.

One thing I really need to make a point of, again, is that my min raises are NOT getting action I would not be getting otherwise. I don't find the task of putting a cold caller on a hand any different than if they called 3 bets or just one. Even from the BB. Over the last weeks of doing this experiment I have seen that most players just play thier cards with little regard to anything else. If the player folds A-X for 3 bets he folds it for one.

In fact, The exact opposite of what Jay is worried about seems to be happening. Figuring out what an opponant has is much easier playing small ball. If I 3 bet in a tourney (at any stage Im avg stacked) and get called by one or two players the pot is large enough to force all-in or crippling decisions. Not to mention 3 betting tends to encourage a cold call and then someone pushing all in PF. Or worse than that you 3 bet and get a cold call and then the button and the BB also call. What your worried about will happen MORE often by 3 betting because it puts pots out there worth stealing. I mentioned before how shockingly often I am min raising and it folds all the way around. Far more often than when I 3 bet.

If the pot is small Players will chase for half the pot on the flop and fold to a half pot bet on the turn instead of pushing all in on the flop with a draw after I bet.

I dunno. I see the majority of players out there 3 bet then use the bet pot or all-in move for the rest of the hand. They do this every time. It seems to me they are jacking up the pot sizes to a point where the hand becomes unplayable after the flop unless you go all-in or risk your tourney life. How are you putting players on hands when the pot represents 50% or more of your chips on the flop and one of 3 players uses the online standard bet pot button (usually first to act)?

Can anyone offer any argument against any of this? All the books say the opposite of what I am experiencing. 3 betting seems to just create a lot of unwanted situations.

Re: The Pre Flop Raise
 

PokerFoo, I have to say there is a lot in what you are saying. I have been minimum raising from OOP with various hands. And with surprisingly good results. It may be that I have been running on the good side of variance on these but this is over a big sample.

Anyway, I put this down to players just being a little uncomfortable. It seems that many view the minimum raise as disguised strengh rather than just speculative play.

All serious players are educating themselves by reading books so the "correct" play is known by everybody. 3 bets are expected and no longer respected IMHO. Therefore, as you are implying, it just builds a big pot. I am tending to minimum bet or bet 4xBB.

The real art is to just keep mixing. Be aware that almost all regular players know the "correct" way, so just experiment and try to do things "incorrectly" at times.

Re: The Pre Flop Raise
 

I see a couple of plausible explanations. In the grand scheme of things, there's not *that* much difference between minraising, raising 3x (don't call it 3 betting, that means reraising somebody who raised you), and Jesusing raising 2x early and 3x late. It would take a lot of tournaments to confidently assert a difference.

1) Variance (in a good way) since you started minraising more.

2) You were raising too light, and now you get punished less on your light raises.

3) You're taking a different psychological approach to the tournament and actually playing better postflop with your smallball mindset.

4) Your opponents see a minraise and do stupid things.

1 and 3 seem the most likely to me.

Re: The Pre Flop Raise
 

Sorry, Yes. When I refered to "3 betting" I meant opening for 3x the BB. I hope that didn't confuse anyone.

I think it is a combinations of all those things you mentioned. I would lean towards 3 and 4, though.

Thanks for the feedback, guys. I really wanted to bounce this off some folks.

Re: The Pre Flop Raise
 

a) implied odds

b) stealing the blinds

c) bigger pot pf=bigger pot on the flop=bigger pot on the turn=bigger pot on the river= more value w/ good hands

Re: The Pre Flop Raise
 

There's probably a way of calculating the perfect PR raise size. Plugging in the stack sizes/tightness to steals/3betting range/positions of the opponents to act, combined with your opening range, and you could get a close to ideal PFR size for anything, whether it be a HU SNG, late in a MTT or in a deep stacked cash game. It could be clarified even more with further statistics, but I think such an exact value would be too difficult to calculate and the EV gained would be increasingly small.

Re: The Pre Flop Raise
 

The problem I find witht he min raise is you dont know what your playing against. If soemone min raises me and I have 2 7 on the bb im calling. I always hope the person has a big hand when they min raise because im in no danger of losing alot but the person min raising is. I think the min raise does have a place in ones arsenal though. If your in the late stages of a tourney the min raise is usaully useless also. Once the antes kick in you need to raise to 4x bb if you want the bb to fold. I find using the min raise on a lp raiser and leading off with a small bet on any flop works well. That and when I'm shortstacked and have a big pair and want to get all my money in and making the villion feel compelled to call me.

Re: The Pre Flop Raise
 

I have found the best way to size a preflop raise is by position.

Early Pos: 2.5xbb
middle: 3x
late" 4x

This is Phil Gordan's preflop raise sizing methodology, and I find it hides hands strength and makes it almost all but impossible for anyone to "read", especially if you eliminate "limping" from your game. If I can't come in for a raise or re raise I fold preflop. I see no advantage to limping in any tournaments preflop. Not even when your M is 20+...

Re: The Pre Flop Raise
 

Well thats right... Early position: You are going to raise only with good hands so you want action! Middle positon: You are also raising with good hands but also with weaker holdings. Late Position: Raise 4x cause you want to get more money in the pot when you are in position. Also it puts more pressure to the blinds. Thats a good strategy!

Re: The Pre Flop Raise
 

I do it exactly the same regardless of the cards when I choose to play. In tourneys its dependent on M. When I have chips (+20M) I'm likely to be raising tons of pots preflop with any 2 in certain spots, especially when antes kick in and the "bubble fear" turns opponents into dazed venison.

Re: The Pre Flop Raise
 

The correct amount to raise is "as much your opponents are willing to call". This tends to be 3-4bb in online poker. If you get dealt AK, you want to get the trash hands out of the pot, and maybe get someone with KJ to call you.

In casinos, people are bored and less willing to wait, so the correct amount can be 10bb or more. You always want as much money in the pot as possible when you are the favorite.

Re: The Pre Flop Raise
 

The problem is that if you are going to minraise good hands such as AJ or KQ then you really have to minraise great hands like JJ+. If you bet 3x BB for only your great hands then it will stand out too easily.

By minraising you are allowing people to see flops cheaply with hands such as 44, 97s, KT etc.. Unless you are at a super tight table and can get away with minraising I think it is a bad idea.

At the lower limits such as NL5 to NL25 you see it happen a lot. Minraise 3bets are also common with AA & KK. If I am ever minraised then I call with anything except total rubbish because I am getting great odds. That is especially true for minraise 3bets where you have a great chance to stack off if you hit 2 pair or better.

For tournaments it is different and minraises can be useful when the blinds are large. Someone else in the thread summed it up by saying you should raise more for loose players and less (possibly down to 2x BB) for tight players. For example, at NL10 I often need to set my standard raise to 7x BB because of one or two very loose players at the table (and they still call with Q5s).

Re: The Pre Flop Raise
 

god damn it... so many replys and noone gives the answer to the original question...

if u raise the minimum u r always givin the big blind 3.5 to 1 on his/her money (and over 4 to 1 when there's antes). that means the big blind has odds to call u w/ almost any two cards. this prevents u from stealin the blinds @ times where u could've. it also brings a lot of complications to postflop play since u can't really put them on a small range of hands. by raisin 3x the blind u r only givin them 2.25 to 1 on their money. so now, even tho it's a "small" difference in the raise they'd be makin a mistake (a huge one) by callin w/ any two cards.

also, no it is not "wrong" to minraise. u should identify what's the cheapest effective raise @ any table u r at. if u can get away w/ stealin the blinds or gettin only one caller w/ a minraise then go for it. if a minraise is gettin called by multiple opponents too often then go for 3x. if 3x is gettin called by multiple opponents too often then u need to go to 3 and 1/2 or 4 times the blind. if this is still gettin called by multiple opponents way too often then u should be happy b/c u r @ a dream table. play tight and punish them w/ some strong bettin w/ ur big hands.

Re: The Pre Flop Raise
 

This thread seems to be talking more about minraising in tournaments. What about cash tables? Any difference in raise sizes?

[ QUOTE ]
if u raise the minimum u r always givin the big blind 3.5 to 1 on his/her money (and over 4 to 1 when there's antes). that means the big blind has odds to call u w/ almost any two cards. this prevents u from stealin the blinds @ times where u could've. it also brings a lot of complications to postflop play since u can't really put them on a small range of hands. by raisin 3x the blind u r only givin them 2.25 to 1 on their money. so now, even tho it's a "small" difference in the raise they'd be makin a mistake (a huge one) by callin w/ any two cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you minraise from EP and raise 3-4BB from later positions, then the ability to steal the blinds is still there. You are not trying to steal the blinds anyway from EP as your range is quite tight compared to LP. If the BB loosely calls (ATC even) the EP minraise after everyone else folded, he is playing out of position against pretty good hands. Not too great for BB.

I am thinking that it does not make a huge difference if you minraise EP and 3-4BB raise other positions or just make fixed size raises in non-blind positions.

Re: The Pre Flop Raise
 

[ QUOTE ]
god damn it... so many replys and noone gives the answer to the original question...

if u raise the minimum u r always givin the big blind 3.5 to 1 on his/her money (and over 4 to 1 when there's antes). that means the big blind has odds to call u w/ almost any two cards. this prevents u from stealin the blinds @ times where u could've. it also brings a lot of complications to postflop play since u can't really put them on a small range of hands. by raisin 3x the blind u r only givin them 2.25 to 1 on their money. so now, even tho it's a "small" difference in the raise they'd be makin a mistake (a huge one) by callin w/ any two cards.

also, no it is not "wrong" to minraise. u should identify what's the cheapest effective raise @ any table u r at. if u can get away w/ stealin the blinds or gettin only one caller w/ a minraise then go for it. if a minraise is gettin called by multiple opponents too often then go for 3x. if 3x is gettin called by multiple opponents too often then u need to go to 3 and 1/2 or 4 times the blind. if this is still gettin called by multiple opponents way too often then u should be happy b/c u r @ a dream table. play tight and punish them w/ some strong bettin w/ ur big hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

The original question has been answered and there have been some good answers . It is clear you didn't read all the posts because I explicitly mentioned that if you mini-raise , you give the BB good odds to call with more hands .

Re: The Pre Flop Raise
 

Let me see if I can weigh in on this in an rational fashion:

A)Min-raise opening is +EV for you if the calling range for the players in the blind in this circumstance is anything less than any two cards. Considering that the BB's call equity is 22.22%, a fold by the BB in this circumstance is decidedly -EV. Against any reasonable range of hands that you could be opening with, whether that is any two cards or 88+, ATs+, etc., a random hand has a better than 22.22% equity in the pot. The difference in the random hand's equity against your range and the call equity of the big blind (22.22%) determines the marginal gain in EV from making a call.

B)3xBB opening limits your the BB's call equity considerably. In this instance, the call equity is 30.77% for the BB. While your 3x opening range could still be quite wide enough to make calling with any two cards in the BB here correct if you were all-in, the implied odds of playing a hand OOP against a continuation bet (almost guaranteed in a limit game FWIW) on the flop (where you will only be playing five cards, instead of the seven total in an all-in) make the call equity unplayably higher than the 30.77% value, given the value the BB loses by having difficulty getting paid off if ahead and folding the best hand to a bluff or continuation bet from the raiser.

As for an example, the best I can think and a fairly simple one for explaining why it's best (from Rawls' original position) to raise 3x is if the BB has pocket deuces. A min-raise is laying a call equity of 22.22% for a hand that makes a set ~11.7% of the time. Since we can reasonably expect implied odds to be greater than 4BBs in a pot of 4.5BBs, a call out of the BB with deuces is the correct play for someone to make.
Now if we suppose that this same BB is a calling station with a highly inelastic distribution of hands (i.e. the hands he calls with do not change much relative to the size of the bet, which is common enough), open-raising 3x into the BB is much better. Now the deuces call equity is 30.77% with a hand that is dominated by a higher pocket pair approximately 33% of the time against one opponent and has horrible implied odds OOP and HU even when making the 11.7% set on the flop and you're folding the best hand a fair amount of the time to continuation bets or bets on later streets. Pocket pairs' value actually increases in AI situations where you have the proper call equity because you don't risk any danger of folding the best hand if your opponent's hand misses the flop.

I think for your particular situation where people will fold or call as readily to a min-raise as a 3x raise, you can exploit your opponent's best by limping a whole lot of hands out of position and raising a wide range of hands in position against limpers PF. I might be wrong and am at work now, so I'm not hyperconfident in that.
All the same, one of the biggest mistakes I made when started playing poker is raising a value that will only be called by a range of hands that has a winning equity against my hand. While a hand like JJ is better than a lot of hands that may limp in behind it, raising with it is guaranteed to fold just about every speculative hand that might have limped and put you on a collision course with hands of two overcards. That's -EV because that 76s that was planning to put in a BB when way behind is now going to fold PF and give you zero instead of boosting your EV. For many beginning players it is maddening to see a hand like Q3o call your raise and then beat you out of a pot and can cause some to think they want to raise some amount that would make that Q3o fold. Truth is, even on the hand that you got slaughtered by Q3o, you want that call every time.

Most of this is applicable only to ring games where I make the assumption that you are deep-stacked relative to the blinds. In tournaments where your stack is a discrete object and not a continuous distribution (because of infinite rebuys in ring games), you treat the stack as your entire bankroll and determine equity in relation to percentages of your stack along with other important considerations.

Hopefully this wasn't too rambling or too off-base (I'll admit I'm not proofreading this post prior to posting). The variance of playing with idiots can piss a lot of people off and confound a lot of hand ranges that you make your reads of the opposition. You will make scads of moolah playing against such fools though and I urge you not to get less aggressive with your good hands because your opponents may do something stupid. If they may do something stupid, you wanna be there to grab up as much of their money as possible and then tell them that they played a nice hand so that they keep on being your personal ATM.