Weird preflop checkup
 

Been quite a while since i found myself in a tough spot preflop. Thought this was kinda interesting but who knows.

Canterbury 30-60
Game is very good. Most players are just in town for a series of tournements and are of no real threat limit poker wise.
UTG in this hand usually plays 15-30 and is out of his confort zone. I've definatly sensed he's playing tight and borderline "scared".
UTG+1 bad passive fishy player. Loser in the game and not important to note.

UTG opens, UTG+1 coldcalls, you look down at 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] , with what frequency are we three beating here? How bad, if at all, is just coldcalling in the anticipation of winning a huge pot if you flop a set.

Some things to consider: Game is bad enough where calling three cold may not be that big of an obstacle to 2-3 players behind us.
Players in this game are bad enough that coldcalling really wont translate into a hand range to them-they are thinking about their own cards far more than yours.
UTG's hand range is gonna be pretty tight but definalty includes AQs, AKs, AKos, AQos along with the regualr monsters.
Even if we are behind UTG theres a good chance we can control the amount of bets he puts in if we are behind i.e. he will shut down pretty quickly when shown strength.

Anyways probably not life or death either way but i'd like to hear some thoughts on it. Thanks a bunch

Re: Weird preflop checkup
 

What's our table image at this point? Are we winning at the table, have we been called down light etc...


I've talked with some live players that frequent those games (30/40/1-2) and it seems the popular consensus is pump it or dump it.

I like the idea of the guy being out of his comfort zone and 3 betting him in this spot, especially with so many behind that might call anyway and possibly getting a nice overlay.

More important to note that sets in limit aren't as huge as they are in NL where you are going to receive a nice payday. And this player sounds like the one that isn't going to go the distance 3betting big streets w/ tptk.

It also sounds like you feel you are ahead of enough of his range to push this edge.

In theory, I'd be more inclined to 3 bet in this circumstance, but my experience in this spot is limited.

Re: Weird preflop checkup
 

My first reaction is always to 3 bet in motion, but now that i think about it i kinda like playing this for two bets knowing that calling 90 cold to those guys is nothing.
It actually sometimes has the opposite effect of what the 3 bet is supposed to do. You are a fish anyways and i'm sure you played the hand horribly.

Re: Weird preflop checkup
 

If the blinds are tight I would 3bet. If they are fishy-loose then I would cc.
Also, one of the main considerations for 3betting a tight opener and ccer w/ 88 is that you will be getting the button most of the time. If these guys are prone to burning money anytime they see a pot developing then one of the pros of 3betting goes out the window and on balance probably tips the scale in favor of ccing.

Re: Weird preflop checkup
 

im not exactly sure of the game dynamics, but i would imagine that im probably cc'ing with any pair lower then TT maybe JJ in this spot. the two blinds will more then likely come along and probably one or two other randoms, and its a pretty easy hand to get away from.

but i think just calling with 88 is probably the best.
the way you run itll come down A88 with 2 hearts, someone will have KThh someone will have AA someone will have AQo and you will win like a 3k pot.

wp nh sir

Re: Weird preflop checkup
 

I think this is backwards. The guy is playing scared, and he still raised UTG. He's more likely than normal to have a big pair here. I don't like my 88 all that much, and even if I did, there is a cold-caller in between us.

I don't think this is going to win unimproved very often. I want to play this for 2-bets, not 3 or 4.


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I like the idea of the guy being out of his comfort zone and 3 betting him in this spot, especially with so many behind that might call anyway and possibly getting a nice overlay.


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Re: Weird preflop checkup
 

Playing this for 2 bets for simply set value is -ev in long run, simple game theory. OP stated that in this particular game the players behind have no problem calling 3 cold.

Id rather 3bet or dump this hand, and in this game, with the overlay, 3 betting and hitting once will be hugely profitable.

Re: Weird preflop checkup
 

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Playing this for 2 bets for simply set value is -ev in long run, simple game theory. OP stated that in this particular game the players behind have no problem calling 3 cold.

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what in god's name are you talking about?

The exact number of ppl left to act matters. Assuming it's 3 or more, I'd coldcall 88, but 3b TT+. If I were in HJ, maybe 3b 99+, and if I'm in CO or button, I'd 3b 88+. No great reasoning behind it, except the general idea that ppl are more willing to call 2 than 3 and the chances a monster is out behind us and we don't get the "button" decreases the fewer players behind us left to act.

Re: Weird preflop checkup
 

This seems like a pretty easy coldcall. I assume from your post you are next to act and there have been no folds in between you and the coldcaller. I am happy to get a big pot going and with the desciption of the initial raiser you are basically always going to be a slight favorite or a big dog. The small bet can be reinvested on the flop when you flop well and saved when the flop is crap for your hand.

Re: Weird preflop checkup
 

this seems like a pretty easy coldcall to me

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I think this is backwards. The guy is playing scared, and he still raised UTG. He's more likely than normal to have a big pair here. I don't like my 88 all that much, and even if I did, there is a cold-caller in between us.


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UTG sounds like the type of guy that will check/fold QQ/JJ/TT if we 3-bet him and the flop comes A x x or K x x, or check/fold AK if the flop comes Q 9 3.
I like having the initiative here, since UTG seems like he won't put any pressure on us and will make bad folds post-flop.

Re: Weird preflop checkup
 

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I think this is backwards. The guy is playing scared, and he still raised UTG. He's more likely than normal to have a big pair here. I don't like my 88 all that much, and even if I did, there is a cold-caller in between us.


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UTG sounds like the type of guy that will check/fold QQ/JJ/TT if we 3-bet him and the flop comes A x x or K x x, or check/fold AK if the flop comes Q 9 3.
I like having the initiative here, since UTG seems like he won't put any pressure on us and will make bad folds post-flop.

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So just forget that there are 3 Corkies behind us left to act?.

Re: Weird preflop checkup
 

If they're retarded enough that I'll get cold-called very often, then I'll be getting a nice overlay, since some of them will have only 1 and sometimes no overcards to my pair. I don't really care if a guy wants to play his 93 suited for 3-bets behind me. If they're only calling the 3 with semi-reasonable hands, then I don't think I'll get called often enough for it to make a difference.

Re: Weird preflop checkup
 

The problem is that you're not really getting an overlay when you don't have the best hand. You're just putting a lot of money in the pot behind. You may well get the UTG hand to fold once in a while, but unless the Corkies all miss too, it won't do you any good. And sometimes the UTG is going to actually play his hand well.

I don't want to try to outplay QQ with 88 in a 4-5 way pot for 4 bets.

I'd much rather play the hand for 2-bets in a 6-7 way pot.


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If they're retarded enough that I'll get cold-called very often, then I'll be getting a nice overlay, since some of them will have only 1 and sometimes no overcards to my pair. I don't really care if a guy wants to play his 93 suited for 3-bets behind me. If they're only calling the 3 with semi-reasonable hands, then I don't think I'll get called often enough for it to make a difference.

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Re: Weird preflop checkup
 

call if you expect callers behind you. Otherwise fold.

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Even if we are behind UTG theres a good chance we can control the amount of bets he puts in if we are behind i.e. he will shut down pretty quickly when shown strength.

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I'm guessing that UTG raises 99+ as well, and this gives me more incentive to 3bet.

Misread OP's post, where does it state he is mp1? I assumed we were in later position...

Pretty sure coldcalling 88 for set value with 2 (in most games) in late position is a leak.

Re: Weird preflop checkup
 

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Even if we are behind UTG theres a good chance we can control the amount of bets he puts in if we are behind i.e. he will shut down pretty quickly when shown strength.

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I'm guessing that UTG raises 99+ as well, and this gives me more incentive to 3bet.

Misread OP's post, where does it state he is mp1? I assumed we were in later position...

Pretty sure coldcalling 88 for set value with 2 (in most games) in late position is a leak.

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We are not open coldcalling. There is already one coldcaller and as OP said 2 to 3 bad players behind. Also, 1 possible hand in villains range shouldnt sway the decision here. If we dont flop a set the hand is going to be flat out hard to play.

Re: Weird preflop checkup
 

Lets think about this hand for a second.

A scared UTG raises and people are thinkng about 3 betting? The worst hand this guy will have is something AJo or KQs. Both of which our hand isn't that far ahead of.

Folding is probably the best play. Just calling isn't bad either. You have to be able to get away from the hand if hit a good flop(ie, no over cards).

Re: Weird preflop checkup
 

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Even if we are behind UTG theres a good chance we can control the amount of bets he puts in if we are behind i.e. he will shut down pretty quickly when shown strength.

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I'm guessing that UTG raises 99+ as well, and this gives me more incentive to 3bet.

Misread OP's post, where does it state he is mp1? I assumed we were in later position...

Pretty sure coldcalling 88 for set value with 2 (in most games) in late position is a leak.

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We are not open coldcalling. There is already one coldcaller and as OP said 2 to 3 bad players behind. Also, 1 possible hand in villains range shouldnt sway the decision here. If we dont flop a set the hand is going to be flat out hard to play.

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That is what I am saying. Pending on position, we can't depend on players to call behind on us. Although the game OP is talking about, sounds +ev to cold call here, I believe cold calling in long run is -ev.

I'd most likely dump this hand in most spots, but 3 betting to get villain who is playing with scared money off a better pair after a scary flop is good too.

Re: Weird preflop checkup
 

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That is what I am saying. Pending on position, we can't depend on players to call behind on us. Although the game OP is talking about, sounds +ev to cold call here, I believe cold calling in long run is -ev.

I'd most likely dump this hand in most spots, but 3 betting to get villain who is playing with scared money off a better pair after a scary flop is good too.

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you are wrong

Re: Weird preflop checkup
 

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Even if we are behind UTG theres a good chance we can control the amount of bets he puts in if we are behind i.e. he will shut down pretty quickly when shown strength.

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I'm guessing that UTG raises 99+ as well, and this gives me more incentive to 3bet.

Misread OP's post, where does it state he is mp1? I assumed we were in later position...

Pretty sure coldcalling 88 for set value with 2 (in most games) in late position is a leak.

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We are not open coldcalling. There is already one coldcaller and as OP said 2 to 3 bad players behind. Also, 1 possible hand in villains range shouldnt sway the decision here. If we dont flop a set the hand is going to be flat out hard to play.

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That is what I am saying. Pending on position, we can't depend on players to call behind on us. Although the game OP is talking about, sounds +ev to cold call here, I believe cold calling in long run is -ev.

I'd most likely dump this hand in most spots, but 3 betting to get villain who is playing with scared money off a better pair after a scary flop is good too.

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We can assume that we will doing the same against any thinking opposition if the right flop presents itself. No one is saying that if the table dynamic was different it is wrong to 3bet 88. I do against tightish openers all the time, but that is not the crux of this hand. The crux of this hand is whether to 3bet when we expect callers who are loose and have position on us as well as an opener who might have us in bad shape.

Re: Weird preflop checkup
 

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A scared UTG raises and people are thinkng about 3 betting? The worst hand this guy will have is something AJo or KQs. Both of which our hand isn't that far ahead of.


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When a really weak/tight player opens UTG and gets 3-bet by a reasonable player, the weak guy is generally going to put the 3-bettor on QQ+/AK. Even if we don't do real well against his pf range, he's going to be making a ton of bad folds, so he doesn't have nearly the equity his pf range is supposed to have.

Re: Weird preflop checkup
 

For people who think 3-betting is a bad idea:

We're at least cold-calling here, so it really comes down to a 1sb decision. Between the players already in and our call, theres 7.67 sb in the pot already, and there will be at least 10.67 if we 3-bet. Do you think the extra fold equity we gain by 3-betting the weak tight guy is worth a 1sb investment? The worst mistake a player can make in limit holdem is folding the best hand, and here we have a guy that's pretty likely to do so. If 3-betting is wrong equity-wise preflop, it's only wrong by a fraction of a bet.
When UTG folds a higher pocket pair or a 6-out hand in 10+ sb pot, we gain way more than a fraction of a sb. Even if 2 more idiots cold-call 3 and the bb calls, we still probably have close to our fair share of pf equity, and might win a gigantic pot. The cost of jamming it here is very small compared to the good things that it might do for us later in the hand.

Re: Weird preflop checkup
 

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For people who think 3-betting is a bad idea:

We're at least cold-calling here, so it really comes down to a 1sb decision. Between the players already in and our call, theres 7.67 sb in the pot already, and there will be at least 10.67 if we 3-bet. Do you think the extra fold equity we gain by 3-betting the weak tight guy is worth a 1sb investment? The worst mistake a player can make in limit holdem is folding the best hand, and here we have a guy that's pretty likely to do so. If 3-betting is wrong equity-wise preflop, it's only wrong by a fraction of a bet.
When UTG folds a higher pocket pair or a 6-out hand in 10+ sb pot, we gain way more than a fraction of a sb. Even if 2 more idiots cold-call 3 and the bb calls, we still probably have close to our fair share of pf equity, and might win a gigantic pot. The cost of jamming it here is very small compared to the good things that it might do for us later in the hand.

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This makes tons of sense.

Re: Weird preflop checkup
 

I get what Adebisi is saying and think his line of thinking is good, however im a little nervous players like these tend to tense up and check call alot postflop instead of check folding. I also am not a huge fan of three betting b/c even if our hand will play easier against the weak tightie UTG, if we have, say one or two of the four people behind us to cold call, its going to be a very tough hand to play out. The more i think about this hand the more im in favor of cold calling only because our postflop play will be so superior to other players in the game and i dont want to be trying to create "overlay" when really we are behind to UTG.

Re: Weird preflop checkup
 

A) I can't imagine 3-betting this preflop given the scenario you've laid out.

B) How the hell do you only have 71 posts? Get on it, man. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Rob

Re: Weird preflop checkup
 

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For people who think 3-betting is a bad idea:

We're at least cold-calling here, so it really comes down to a 1sb decision. Between the players already in and our call, theres 7.67 sb in the pot already, and there will be at least 10.67 if we 3-bet. Do you think the extra fold equity we gain by 3-betting the weak tight guy is worth a 1sb investment? The worst mistake a player can make in limit holdem is folding the best hand, and here we have a guy that's pretty likely to do so. If 3-betting is wrong equity-wise preflop, it's only wrong by a fraction of a bet.
When UTG folds a higher pocket pair or a 6-out hand in 10+ sb pot, we gain way more than a fraction of a sb. Even if 2 more idiots cold-call 3 and the bb calls, we still probably have close to our fair share of pf equity, and might win a gigantic pot. The cost of jamming it here is very small compared to the good things that it might do for us later in the hand.

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This makes tons of sense.

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Except for the fact that he paints a best case scenario picture and ignores the impact that 3 betting has on our implied and reverse implied odds.

Re: Weird preflop checkup
 

factor in that you are going to have to show down a hand to win in this game probably like 85% given this preflop scenario... (just a rough guesstimate, but it is something high like that)

inflating the pot with 88 against a probable 4-6 person field when you are more then likely going to have to showdown doesnt seem that profitable to me.

Re: Weird preflop checkup
 

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factor in that you are going to have to show down a hand to win in this game probably like 85% given this preflop scenario... (just a rough guesstimate, but it is something high like that)

inflating the pot with 88 against a probable 4-6 person field when you are more then likely going to have to showdown doesnt seem that profitable to me.

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Hopp, I agree with you...this hand is going to showdown. And unless we spike our 8 or get a straight, I don't think we can win. So in this situation, just call and hope to get a great flop. I think this should be fairly easy to play. If there are a lot of callers, UTG will only bet out if he started out with an overpair to the board or hit something on the flop. UTG +1 will probably bet out with just about anything.

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factor in that you are going to have to show down a hand to win in this game probably like 85% given this preflop scenario... (just a rough guesstimate, but it is something high like that)

inflating the pot with 88 against a probable 4-6 person field when you are more then likely going to have to showdown doesnt seem that profitable to me.

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Hopp, I agree with you...this hand is going to showdown. And unless we spike our 8 or get a straight, I don't think we can win. So in this situation, just call and hope to get a great flop. I think this should be fairly easy to play. If there are a lot of callers, UTG will only bet out if he started out with an overpair to the board or hit something on the flop. UTG +1 will probably bet out with just about anything.

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munchkin agreeing with me is kinda meh... because he thinks people cheat at canterbury, which isnt true.

but in reality my point (and him agreeing with me is right), cold calling is far superior to raising and i dont even think its very debatable.

Re: Weird preflop checkup
 

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factor in that you are going to have to show down a hand to win in this game probably like 85% given this preflop scenario... (just a rough guesstimate, but it is something high like that)

inflating the pot with 88 against a probable 4-6 person field when you are more then likely going to have to showdown doesnt seem that profitable to me.

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Hopp, I agree with you...this hand is going to showdown. And unless we spike our 8 or get a straight, I don't think we can win. So in this situation, just call and hope to get a great flop. I think this should be fairly easy to play. If there are a lot of callers, UTG will only bet out if he started out with an overpair to the board or hit something on the flop. UTG +1 will probably bet out with just about anything.

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munchkin agreeing with me is kinda meh... because he thinks people cheat at canterbury, which isnt true.

but in reality my point (and him agreeing with me is right), cold calling is far superior to raising and i dont even think its very debatable.

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Im pretty sure someone is cheating or Canterbury is rigged in favor of the Corkies, because I am apparently a huge donater in what most would consider a very soft game.

Re: Weird preflop checkup
 

"Except for the fact that he paints a best case scenario picture and ignores the impact that 3 betting has on our implied and reverse implied odds."

Bingo

Re: Weird preflop checkup
 

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munchkin agreeing with me is kinda meh... because he thinks people cheat at canterbury, which isnt true.

but in reality my point (and him agreeing with me is right), cold calling is far superior to raising and i dont even think its very debatable.

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Who were you referring to when you said "he thinks people cheat at Canterbury?"

Re: Weird preflop checkup
 

rethought this scenario. i like cold calling here as well, agree folding in this type of game is bad, although in most other spots a leak.

i still like the who idea of 3 betting and getting the better hand to fold as well here, but guess in theory it isn't going to work out as often as we like.

nice thinking spot, good post.

Re: Weird preflop checkup
 

If you have players behind you willing to cold call 3-bets then it is even more likely they will cold call 2-bets. For that reason alone, I would simply call here. I don't think you are going to win here unless this flop hits you big (a set, a pair on board with an innocuous 3rd card, some kind of rainbow straight draw with undercards, like that).

If I thought I could isolate against UTG and UTG+1 I would consider a 3-bet here - but I would want to be very familiar with both players and know how to handle them.

Re: Weird preflop checkup
 

All 3-betting is going to do is :

1) make you pay a more expensive price to hit your set
2) perhaps get it capped back to you (at least that better defines UTG's holding [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )
3) bloat the pot for the clowns behind you in the hand to draw to overcard hands even if the flop does come all babies and you're hand appears to be ahead.

In the scenario you describe, you can cold call pretty easily, although folding doesn't suck completely. If you don't flop a set, you can probably just let it go.

The decision making in this hand is really dictated from how you described UTG. You're probably behind PF more than half the time.