Which Poker game has the least amount of luck?
 

After watching some of the HORSE coverage on ESPN it got me wondering which game has the least amount of luck involved out of the five. By luck I mean the inability to control the outcome through bet sizing, reads, and other skill related factors.

I only play NL Hold'em and have very limited knowledge about the other games. It does seem to me that Stud and Razz especially are nothing but card catching contests.

In Omaha 8 there are so many different ways to win the pot, that you are never a huge favorite as in Hold'em for example. I think that NL Hold'em is the one game where skill heavily outweighs the luck, and it's not even part of the HORSE until the final table.

Again, I have very limited knowledge of the other games, and I'm not trying to offend anyone who enjoys all of the above mentioned games.

Re: Which Poker game has the least amount of luck?
 

Strictly my opinion: 7Stud

POW

Re: Which Poker game has the least amount of luck?
 

i dont know man, i dont think "luck" is a tangible variable.

Re: Which Poker game has the least amount of luck?
 

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i dont know man, i dont think "luck" is a tangible variable.

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Luck is totally tangible. It's measured in bb²/100 hands.
It's skill that's intangible. At what rate can the
best players beat decent players?
No one agrees on that.

Re: Which Poker game has the least amount of luck?
 

Would I be correct to assume that the game with the greatest skill gap between great players and bad players is also the game with the least amount of luck?

If so, offhand I'd say Hi/Lo Stud. I might change my mind if I think about it a bit more though.

Re: Which Poker game has the least amount of luck?
 

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i dont know man, i dont think "luck" is a tangible variable.

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Luck is totally tangible. It's measured in bb²/100 hands.

this is a fallacy of false causes
It's skill that's intangible. At what rate can the
best players beat decent players?
No one agrees on that.

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Re: Which Poker game has the least amount of luck?
 

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Would I be correct to assume that the game with the greatest skill gap between great players and bad players is also the game with the least amount of luck?



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No, it's the ratio of the skill gap over luck. That's the game with the most skill.

Re: Which Poker game has the least amount of luck?
 

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Luck is totally tangible. It's measured in bb²/100 hands.
It's skill that's intangible.

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Skill(gap) is measured in bb/100 hands.

Surely for the various games there must be some estimate for the skillgap between top players and average players?

Which poker game has highest skillgap divided by the squareroot of luck?

Re: Which Poker game has the least amount of luck?
 

Most people I asked have said Pot Limit Omaha 8/Hi Low is the game with the least luck and more mathematically profitable. Also you clear bonuses much faster due the big size of pots. It's an action game of draws & redraws with very low variance contrasted to NL Holdem.

Re: Which Poker game has the least amount of luck?
 

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Most people I asked have said Pot Limit Omaha 8/Hi Low is the game with the least luck and more mathematically profitable. Also you clear bonuses much faster due the big size of pots. It's an action game of draws & redraws with very low variance contrasted to NL Holdem.

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That woulda been my guess. I thought it was because the better players know when to chase and when to fold.

Re: Which Poker game has the least amount of luck?
 

[ QUOTE ]
After watching some of the HORSE coverage on ESPN it got me wondering which game has the least amount of luck involved out of the five. By luck I mean the inability to control the outcome through bet sizing, reads, and other skill related factors.

I only play NL Hold'em and have very limited knowledge about the other games. It does seem to me that Stud and Razz especially are nothing but card catching contests.

In Omaha 8 there are so many different ways to win the pot, that you are never a huge favorite as in Hold'em for example. I think that NL Hold'em is the one game where skill heavily outweighs the luck, and it's not even part of the HORSE until the final table.

Again, I have very limited knowledge of the other games, and I'm not trying to offend anyone who enjoys all of the above mentioned games.

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With a favorable ante structure and a table full of morons, it would be hard to book a losing session in 7 card stud hi low with no qualifier.

Re: Which Poker game has the least amount of luck?
 

Razz's reputation as a card catching contest is why I love to play it. Players regularly make tremendous mistakes on multiple streets, and never seem to know when they're ahead or behind.

Re: Which Poker game has the least amount of luck?
 

5 card stud

Re: Which Poker game has the least amount of luck?
 

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5 card stud

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Re: Which Poker game has the least amount of luck?
 

Games like 5 card stud and draw are rarely played anymore because fish go busto FAST. Seems like those would have the greatest advantage for someone with some skill versus someone with little/none. My vote goes to 5 card stud, you can see almost all the cards, particularly on later streets. Therefore, someone who pays close attention to every card and a good memory will have a HUGE advantage over the guy who does not, as he will have a much better idea of the odds.

Re: Which Poker game has the least amount of luck?
 

least amount of luck may mean least likely to lose during a session. that may not be the same as the games with most amount of skill.

least likely to lose at a session if truely an expert at all the games equally.

five card stud
draw poker
no limit holdem
stud hi-low split
omaha hi low( low on this list because less hands are dealt)
seven stud
razz
limit holdem

this relates to live action as that was the question

Re: Which Poker game has the least amount of luck?
 

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Most people I asked have said Pot Limit Omaha 8/Hi Low is the game with the least luck and more mathematically profitable. Also you clear bonuses much faster due the big size of pots. It's an action game of draws & redraws with very low variance contrasted to NL Holdem.

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That woulda been my guess. I thought it was because the better players know when to chase and when to fold.

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What? I think Omaha/8 has a HUGE amount of variance (luck). More so than other games. Am I wrong? I would think the poker game with the least amount of luck would be the one where you have the largest opportunity to make significant decisions. I dunno if that sounds weird but I would say triple-draw would qualify as such a game.

Re: Which Poker game has the least amount of luck?
 

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least amount of luck may mean least likely to lose during a session. that may not be the same as the games with most amount of skill.

least likely to lose at a session if truely an expert at all the games equally.

five card stud
draw poker
no limit holdem
stud hi-low split
omaha hi low( low on this list because less hands are dealt)
seven stud
razz
limit holdem

this relates to live action as that was the question

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judging by your red nickname and confidence in writing this - it seems it should be trusted, but I would really like to see some some stats confiming it (our of personal interest).

E.g. stats over statistically significant number of hands that show that the variance of the winning players playing limit is higher than the one playing no limit ...

ok, you remark that this relates to a live action, do you think pictere is radically different online than live (as for live, i can imagine agreeing with this list)

Re: Which Poker game has the least amount of luck?
 

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judging by your red nickname and confidence in writing this - it seems it should be trusted

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Awesome

Re: Which Poker game has the least amount of luck?
 

13 card omaha...

Re: Which Poker game has the least amount of luck?
 

I disagree with most people here over the definition of luck in game.

Most people in this thread are defining it as "the game where you are least likely to lose to terrible players". Sure, maybe 7-card Stud makes you unlikely to lose because most people are terrible at it... but that's not a feature of the game itself.

It just so happens that 7 card Stud games are populated by terrible players. But suppose Stud had been the game that got popular on TV and NLHE was some obscure game few people played, then it would be the exact opposite.

As for which game is affected by luck the least, going only by the rules of the game itself... I am confident that it's Limit Omaha H/L.

As for the most luck-based, any game where single cards can decide huge pots will be at the top. PLO is the clear #1, probably followed by NLHE.

Re: Which Poker game has the least amount of luck?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
least amount of luck may mean least likely to lose during a session. that may not be the same as the games with most amount of skill.

least likely to lose at a session if truely an expert at all the games equally.

five card stud
draw poker
no limit holdem
stud hi-low split
omaha hi low( low on this list because less hands are dealt)
seven stud
razz
limit holdem

this relates to live action as that was the question

[/ QUOTE ]

judging by your red nickname and confidence in writing this - it seems it should be trusted, but I would really like to see some some stats confiming it (our of personal interest).

E.g. stats over statistically significant number of hands that show that the variance of the winning players playing limit is higher than the one playing no limit ...

ok, you remark that this relates to a live action, do you think pictere is radically different online than live (as for live, i can imagine agreeing with this list)

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Here's a hint on the name:
http://www.twoplustwo.com/books.html...0Split%20Poker

Re: Which Poker game has the least amount of luck?
 

indianav8,

i would also include limit omaha high which i forgot in the top four. not pot limit though thats lower.

sorry no stats for you because i dont have them and they wont apply. as you cant really compare limit bets with bb in no limit. i really think the easiest way is to try and guess which is least likely to lose at during a session.
using the net though, you can use number of hands played and then some would go up or down in my list.
most of what i am saying is from experience, and believe i play most games fairly well so can be a good judge. and i definitely find myself and all other decent players losing most often in a session at limit holdem than any other.
although at very small limits that could be different for limit holdem as your starting edge is so high against bad players.

comparing no limit and limit holdem for winning sessions and luck. i have more time playing live at BOTH games combined than any other player living or dead.

Re: Which Poker game has the least amount of luck?
 

I remember DevilFish saying he thought Omaha H/L was the most "skillfull" as you had to think so much more about the board, your cards, your high/low possibilities, your oppenents cards etc.. then other games like NL HE. No doubt IMO Omaha (not H/L) is the game with the most luck.

Re: Which Poker game has the least amount of luck?
 

If having to think about more cards is the criteria, the Omaha hi/lo isn't even close, it would be something like stud hi/lo where you have to track many many more cards, plus each player has their own board so you have consider developments on each one of them.

Re: Which Poker game has the least amount of luck?
 

Ray how do you figure Limit Omaha high has less luck than
stud hi-low split
omaha hi low
seven stud
razz
limit holdem?

If anything that would be a game where a good players edge is so tiny and hence would have the most amount of luck.

Re: Which Poker game has the least amount of luck?
 

i tend to give my view from a high stakes perpective. so i am sorry to confuse sometimes. but in bigger games you get to blow alot of players off pots in omaha when scare cards come that you cant do as easily in other games. in small stakes i realize that doesnt happen and in that case it would be ranked as more of a luck game.

remember i said luck as to how easily you would win in a session not the most skill.
i believe seven stud high has the most skill involved but higher fluctuations than some others

Re: Which Poker game has the least amount of luck?
 

One way to look at this issue is to consider if all players play the game optimally, which game has the lowest variance. I believe this would be the game with largest number of cards shown and smallest not shown. My vote goes for 5-card stud.

Re: Which Poker game has the least amount of luck?
 

WPT NL Hold'em Final Table obv

Re: Which Poker game has the least amount of luck?
 

Least amount of luck: S8, definitely.
Most amount: O8

Heck, in order of HORSE games, least to most:

S8
STUD
RAZZ
HE
O8

O8 can be a total crap shoot...
One of my favs came yesterday...

After the flop, I had nuts low and nuts flush draws...
by the river... i had ace high... versus a paired board.
pocket deuces had me...

Re: Which Poker game has the least amount of luck?
 

I play in a very soft $2-5 NL hold'em game and book a win 6 out of 7 sessions. I've played professionally since 1994 and nothing has been as steady as this game.

Limit O-8 is also pretty smooth but I'll never go back.

Re: Which Poker game has the least amount of luck?
 

OMAAHA

Re: Which Poker game has the least amount of luck?
 

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One way to look at this issue is to consider if all players play the game optimally, which game has the lowest variance. I believe this would be the game with largest number of cards shown and smallest not shown. My vote goes for 5-card stud.

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Using your criteria I say RAZZ, it is possible to never make a losing river bet. But then I suppose if all players in the game played optimally no one would ever call your river bet either. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


Jimbo

Re: Which Poker game has the least amount of luck?
 

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Most people I asked have said Pot Limit Omaha 8/Hi Low is the game with the least luck and more mathematically profitable. Also you clear bonuses much faster due the big size of pots. It's an action game of draws & redraws with very low variance contrasted to NL Holdem.

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This is wrong. O8 hands take more time than HE hands. For one, theres obviously 2 more cards to deal out. But it also takes a bit longer to read your hand and the board, which adds a couple seconds to each hand. And finally because mistakes aren't as big in O8 as in HE(mistakes in HE will always cost you your stack unless you suck out while mistakes in O8 may just get you quartered or even sometimes you'll still win 1/2) people have less "auto fold" type situations so they take a few extra seconds.

99,396 and counting

Re: Which Poker game has the least amount of luck?
 

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Using your criteria I say RAZZ, it is possible to never make a losing river bet. But then I suppose if all players in the game played optimally no one would ever call your river bet either. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


Jimbo

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Never making a losing river bet is not optimal play in razz.

Re: Which Poker game has the least amount of luck?
 

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Using your criteria I say RAZZ, it is possible to never make a losing river bet. But then I suppose if all players in the game played optimally no one would ever call your river bet either. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


Jimbo

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Never making a losing river bet is not optimal play in razz.

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It is in the context of the post I was responding to, nice try though, perhaps you can criticize my spelling or grammar next time.

Jimbo

Re: Which Poker game has the least amount of luck?
 

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Using your criteria I say RAZZ, it is possible to never make a losing river bet. But then I suppose if all players in the game played optimally no one would ever call your river bet either. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]


Jimbo

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Never making a losing river bet is not optimal play in razz.

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It is in the context of the post I was responding to, nice try though, perhaps you can criticize my spelling or grammar next time.

Jimbo

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If you never made a losing river bet in razz because you had your opponent boardlocked, then an opponent playing optimally would stop paying off your river bets and you would be forced to bluff at a frequency based on the pot size to optimize your EV. No offense, I just wanted to be sure aspiring razz players didn't read your comment and wind up playing worse. If you want to misspell something next time instead, be my guest.

Re: Which Poker game has the least amount of luck?
 

Last time I bluffed and no one called I still won the pot, get a grip please. Bluffing has nothing to do with the discussion prior to your involvement. Just wanted to reply so aspiring RAZZ players would not play worse by reading your out of context remarks.

Jimbo

Re: Which Poker game has the least amount of luck?
 

HU4ROLLS

Re: Which Poker game has the least amount of luck?
 

Ray's point about stakes is significant. I've found some limit tables the betting structure doesn't suit the conditions. The way a typical pot goes, the decision on the flop looses it's importance as there's almost always nearly sufficient pot equity to justify calling 1 bet on the flop.

A game where your decisions matter, is a pre-condition for least luck.

So for FLO8, there are games where a rather low skill approach, will be very profitable, yet in short-medium term little luck. OTOH there's other game types where there's a huge amount of luck in short-medium term, and it's much harder to find a good edge (even against very poor players).