help i suck
 

villian here is a guy named sulzi who has shown up recently on stars. he multitables a good bit and is fairly aggro/laggy/all the basic sorta stuff winners are nowadays. he's not massively aggressive though and appears to know when to stfu. i don't have a great read on him since he seems to have at times a kind of passive and at other times a selectively laggro style. i don't know what his coldcalling range is pf here but he probably gives me a medium amount of respect.

how should i have played this hand?

POKERSTARS GAME #1243524672: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($3/$6) - 2007/10/25 - 19:50:29 (ET)
Table 'Euphrosyne' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Money248 ($307.10 in chips)
Seat 2: ipokeder ($711.70 in chips)
Seat 4: IMSAKIDD ($117 in chips)
Seat 5: Sulzi ($1519.75 in chips)
ipokeder: posts small blind $3
IMSAKIDD: posts big blind $6
booshiet: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ipokeder [As Qs]
Sulzi: raises $12 to $18
Money248: folds
ipokeder: raises $48 to $66
IMSAKIDD: folds
Sulzi: calls $48
*** FLOP *** [2c 3c Ts]
ipokeder: bets $96
Sulzi: calls $96
*** TURN *** [2c 3c Ts] [7s]
ipokeder: checks
Sulzi: bets $210
bradstr joins the table at seat #3
ipokeder: raises $339.70 to $549.70 and is all-in

Re: help i suck
 

Obviously, you need a solid read that he's capable of folding a decent hand range for this to work. For the odds he's getting I can't imagine he's folding much.

Re: help i suck
 

i like 2- barrels better than c/r turn

Re: help i suck
 

[ QUOTE ]
i like 2- barrels better than c/r turn

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: help i suck
 

no way is he folding this turn here getting 3-1 btw

Re: help i suck
 

2-barrels is so standard tho

Re: help i suck
 

he will NEVER EXPECT that i have AQ

Re: help i suck
 

Lead small, like half the pot.

Re: help i suck
 

[ QUOTE ]
Lead small, like half the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

would surely be better.

Re: help i suck
 

no one ever folds in that spot, gl catching on the river yo

(2 barrels yadiyada meow cheow)

Re: help i suck
 

There was a Party msnl reg who went by the name Sulzi and then a few numbers at the end who played a 27/21 style and in general fits your description pretty well. From what I remember he was pretty good and can be tough at times. I haven't seen him around lately on Party so this is probably the same guy. Anyways, a turn checkraise with these stacks is pretty brutal. Nobody is ever bet/folding any kind of real hand on the turn with these stacks, so shoving is just mindlessly gambling with a good draw but no fold equity against better hands. A turn bet represents a strong hand probably not as well as a turn checkraise in general, but it doesn't matter how much strength you're showing when villain has decided he is committed to call.

In conclusion, just bet the turn.

Re: help i suck
 

[ QUOTE ]
Lead small, like half the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

River plan when you miss?

Re: help i suck
 

what? i dont understand the advice here, i think flop/turn is really bad & spew city...

Re: help i suck
 

wtf flop is incredibly standard.

Re: help i suck
 

[ QUOTE ]
wtf flop is incredibly standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

are people aware this guy cold-called a 3-bet pf?

Re: help i suck
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
wtf flop is incredibly standard.

[/ QUOTE ]

are people aware this guy cold-called a 3-bet pf?

[/ QUOTE ]

?

Re: help i suck
 

Dealt to ipokeder [As Qs]
Sulzi: raises $12 to $18
Money248: folds
ipokeder: raises $48 to $66
IMSAKIDD: folds
Sulzi: calls $48

uh...no?

Re: help i suck
 

The only way this can be good is if you have a read he likes to float in RRd pots on flops like this (which some people do of course). If that is the case, the c/r all in is fine, and probably better than firing a second barrel. Without that read, which it sounds like you don't have, firing a second barrel>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>C/R.

Re: help i suck
 

this is definitely played ok

Re: help i suck
 

[ QUOTE ]
Dealt to ipokeder [As Qs]
Sulzi: raises $12 to $18
Money248: folds
ipokeder: raises $48 to $66
IMSAKIDD: folds
Sulzi: calls $48

uh...no?

[/ QUOTE ]

lol sorry, i'm a tard, totally misread!

Re: help i suck
 

just open shove the turn, its what id do

Re: help i suck
 

oh, type in "time to be a hero b,tch"

Re: help i suck
 

[ QUOTE ]
just open shove the turn, its what id do

[/ QUOTE ]

this isn't very good at all

Re: help i suck
 

really impressive chatbox trashtalking. if only there were some way i could scrounge up 3k to fly to boston and take my trashtalking to the next level

Re: help i suck
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
just open shove the turn, its what id do

[/ QUOTE ]

this isn't very good at all

[/ QUOTE ]win 20BI at 2.00/4.00 in a few wks and now ur apparently rhe authority on nl, lolol

Re: help i suck
 

[ QUOTE ]
really impressive chatbox trashtalking. if only there were some way i could scrounge up 3k to fly to boston and take my trashtalking to the next level

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, trashtalking is not apart of my game. Not sure where the vehemence is coming from. But it was meant in a funny way. If you got offended, you probably should lighten up, but my apologies either way.

Re: help i suck
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
just open shove the turn, its what id do

[/ QUOTE ]

this isn't very good at all

[/ QUOTE ]win 20BI at 2.00/4.00 in a few wks and now ur apparently rhe authority on nl, lolol

[/ QUOTE ]

fair point, but at 2/4 players are terrible at balancing for the most part

Re: help i suck
 

i would also openshove turn

Re: help i suck
 

er, i lol'ed at the comment. i was just imagining how great it would be if trashtalking were part of a coach's curriculum

Re: help i suck
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
just open shove the turn, its what id do

[/ QUOTE ]

this isn't very good at all

[/ QUOTE ]win 20BI at 2.00/4.00 in a few wks and now ur apparently rhe authority on nl, lolol

[/ QUOTE ]

fair point, but at 2/4 players are terrible at balancing for the most part

[/ QUOTE ]

fwiw, it would help for you to maybe explain why it's terrible, but to me it looks like this is our one shot at making a pair fold. if he has better then that (say QQ+) he's not going anywhere. our hand has too much equity to c/f, and the consensus is that c/r is bad because villain will pot commit himself with the same stuff we're trying to fold out. (as in, top pair, underpair, whatever) I'd likely stack a donk here with a real hand, some of the time, and I agree, balancing is moot. So, we're looking in a vacuum how to maximize EV this hand, and the answer IF WHAT IS ABOVE IS TRUE is to bet.

For me, with these stack sizes, alot of bets are awkward given how much would be left behind and for the river, like if you bet too small it could look like you're pricing yourself in or setting a cheap showdown (and could get moved in, which would eliminate any FE and reduce your situation to a gamble you must take but it hikes up variance) and alot of "bigger" bets are pretty similar to this. so again, i just shove and am happy doing so.

Re: help i suck
 

[ QUOTE ]
er, i lol'ed at the comment. i was just imagining how great it would be if trashtalking were part of a coach's curriculum

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, oh [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

i dont know why, but i am ultra sensitive today. it's like a period or something. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Re: help i suck
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
just open shove the turn, its what id do

[/ QUOTE ]

this isn't very good at all

[/ QUOTE ]win 20BI at 2.00/4.00 in a few wks and now ur apparently rhe authority on nl, lolol

[/ QUOTE ]

fair point, but at 2/4 players are terrible at balancing for the most part

[/ QUOTE ]

fwiw, it would help for you to maybe explain why it's terrible, but to me it looks like this is our one shot at making a pair fold. if he has better then that (say QQ+) he's not going anywhere. our hand has too much equity to c/f, and the consensus is that c/r is bad because villain will pot commit himself with the same stuff we're trying to fold out. (as in, top pair, underpair, whatever) I'd likely stack a donk here with a real hand, some of the time, and I agree, balancing is moot. So, we're looking in a vacuum how to maximize EV this hand, and the answer IF WHAT IS ABOVE IS TRUE is to bet.

For me, with these stack sizes, alot of bets are awkward given how much would be left behind and for the river, like if you bet too small it could look like you're pricing yourself in or setting a cheap showdown (and could get moved in, which would eliminate any FE and reduce your situation to a gamble you must take but it hikes up variance) and alot of "bigger" bets are pretty similar to this. so again, i just shove and am happy doing so.

[/ QUOTE ]

to me there's a fundmental incongruity in what you just said - namely that something like 88 is going to call a c/r but not a shove. i suppose by betting, 88 isn't giving up (i.e. isn't turning his hand into a bluff), but a c/r shows much more strength than an open shove, esp when villain has shown no strength by merely calling the flop. can hero really have a hand worse than what he's actually got there (a semi bluff with a million outs?) can he be c/r shoving w/ AK high? I doubt it. But he can certainly open shove turn with AK high.

Re: help i suck
 

[ QUOTE ]

to me there's a fundmental incongruity in what you just said - namely that something like 88 is going to call a c/r but not a shove.

[/ QUOTE ]

here's why it's not: he's getting a bad price when you open shove, so you need air/semibluff alot more often (or, decent amount more) for a call to be correct vs when he bets the turn. He only needs 24% equity vs a turn c/r to call vs 39% against an open shove.
[ QUOTE ]

i suppose by betting, 88 isn't giving up (i.e. isn't turning his hand into a bluff), but a c/r shows much more strength than an open shove, esp when villain has shown no strength by merely calling the flop. can hero really have a hand worse than what he's actually got there (a semi bluff with a million outs?)

[/ QUOTE ]
why not? Do you get in this dynamic alot? I don't. Opponents will guess wrong, but the only way to let them guess wrong is to set them up for a position to do so.

[ QUOTE ]

can he be c/r shoving w/ AK high? I doubt it. But he can certainly open shove turn with AK high.

[/ QUOTE ]
Uhhh if he can c/r shove w/ AK high he can open shove AK high and vica versa. I dont think not doing one precludes someone from not doing the other, or whatever that logical fallacy is.

Re: help i suck
 

re: your first point - true, but there's so many more bluffs in your range at that point.

re: your second - no i am not in that spot v often but i am cognizant of stack sizes and try not to get in it if i can avoid it.

re: your third - i don't understand at all. i don't think i'm making any logical fallacies, just stating how i think that the range for c/ring turn is way smaller than the range for open shoving it.

Re: help i suck
 

[ QUOTE ]
this is definitely played ok

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: help i suck
 

You should challenge him to 25/50 HU after he has completely owned you and get it AI PF w/ 9 high. Then, after you suck out, you should sit out even though you agreed to at least a 10 min. warning

Re: help i suck
 

[ QUOTE ]
You should challenge him to 25/50 HU after he has completely owned you and get it AI PF w/ 9 high. Then, after you suck out, you should sit out even though you agreed to at least a 10 min. warning

[/ QUOTE ]

but his 9 high hand was suited!

also you didnt see what villian mucked there he could have had worse pre

Re: help i suck
 

esp with the extra $100 in your stack, bet like $200 here is better than shove, since the difference in FE is marginal, and certainly doesnt make up for the fact that you lose an extra $400 a lot (and hes gonna call a river shove on a [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] river a lot since its bd anyway if he does call the turn).

Re: help i suck
 

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

can he be c/r shoving w/ AK high? I doubt it. But he can certainly open shove turn with AK high.

[/ QUOTE ]
Uhhh if he can c/r shove w/ AK high he can open shove AK high and vica versa. I dont think not doing one precludes someone from not doing the other, or whatever that logical fallacy is.

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont agree

and also

fwiw...
if i had the AQ i prob would have led the turn again
but after reading this thread i think im in the c/r camp...b/c im not so sure he's "pot-committed" with 88 if villain faces a crai after betting the turn, since hero looks soo strong...yeah he's getting like 3-1 but if he's convinced he's beat i dont think he's gonna chase a probable 2-outer

i think that hero's decision comes down to what villain does with a T...would he fold a T to a turn lead but make a crying call with the T if hero c/r's? if so, obv lead turn >>> crai. But given that there's 2 possible FDs out there, depending on hero's image yada yada im not sure if he's folding a ten no matter what we do...in which case c/r is better to fold out small pp's + win more monies in case villain is floating

and how come no ones discussed what happens if we decide to check turn and villain checks behind?

Re: help i suck
 

[ QUOTE ]

i think that hero's decision comes down to what villain does with a T...would he fold a T to a turn lead but make a crying call with the T if hero c/r's? if so, obv lead turn >>> crai. But given that there's 2 possible FDs out there, depending on hero's image yada yada im not sure if he's folding a ten no matter what we do...in which case c/r is better to fold out small pp's + win more monies in case villain is floating

[/ QUOTE ]
no one folds a ten. you'd have to be really, really terrible to bet fold top pair in that spot.