I river trips and see no reason to call
 

Speaking of river laydowns...

I've played hundreds of thousands of hands of hold em and cant remember ever doing this.

Live full 10. Villain in this hand is playing straightforward, nothing notable about him. A bit on the passive side.

I open A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] UTG+1. Villain CC's on button. Others fold.

Flop is Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I bet. He raises. I 3 bet. He calls.

Turn is the K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I bet, he raises. I call.

River is the Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I check/fold.

LOL?

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

i don't take this line postflop but given that you did, i sanity call, just because the pot is huge.

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

I like it. You're not beating anything, and your opponent is straightforward and passive. I'm not laughing. Of course, in the heat of battle I'm thinking hard about it first, but it looks right.

Still feels dirty though.

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

Wow. Just wow.

Ok, let's try to put him on some hand ranges here.

We'll give him some PP's, suited (and offsuit) aces, some broadway.

When he raises the flop, he might have top pair or better.

When he raises the turn, he doesn't have the nut flush (and since he's passive, that's scary.) So maybe he has two-pair, a set, a straight, or a flush. I think it is safe to say he does not have 1 pair or a draw.

On the river, he either filled up, or got somewhat counterfitted, but since he still raised, I'm guessing he's probably full (or has a flush and doesn't care.)

I like it. The pots big, but what do we beat?

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

If you are absolutely sure he does not have AA, AK or AQ, I guess a fold is ok, but I'm not sure how you can be that certain. I would at least check/call the river.

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

Well, the villain has been described as passive and the board is both flushed and straightened. No way the trips are good here I think.. nice fold. Not sure why but you think he had J9 here?

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

I fold here a lot.

Kit are you the kid with the shaved head and glasses?

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

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I fold here a lot.

Kit are you the kid with the shaved head and glasses?

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nope. my head isnt shaved

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

Given the diamonds on board and in our hand, villain doesnt have a flush.

Villain cold called the button, I rule out KK and AA.

That leaves me with AJ+, KQs and 99+.

It seems like we beat only JJ and 99 if his range is as limited as I put it, so a fold is the sane choice.

However in the heat of battle, I think I c/c. I am not good enough to lay this had down, yet.

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

Why can't villain have J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9x?

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

J9s also.

when someone says he's "a little loose" and they're talking about a live player yeah, J9s is totally within range.

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

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Why can't villain have J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9x?

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Straight forward and passive.

Obviously interpretations of straight forward differ, but I dont think it is straight forward poker calling 2 bets on the button with J9s or J9o.

Slightly loose or LAG, I would definately include this in villains range.

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

It seems somewhat unlikely to me that villain has J9 because he didn't cap the flop and then came alive when the flush hit on the turn. I guess that's not *that* out of the ordinary for a live player, but a little bit certainly.

I'd weight his range much more heavily towards KQ and [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] connectors that have an 8.

I'm certain I'd call down that river card, but AA is the only hand I can picture beating against this line from a passive player. Or maybe frisky QxJ[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]?

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

That doesn't really matter, he'll wait to pop the turn and then pop any turn regardless of how bad it is.

Welcome to 10-20.

Not saying he has J9 here every time but his line is consistent with it.

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

being passive he would probably 4 bet the flop and check the turn being scared of the flush, so I would rule out Jd9x.I think its a good river fold, if he's passive your no good 1 in 10. KQ or a flush.

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

I think the turn decision is actually interesting here, too. When the K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] hits, given the flop action, what range do we give our villain, and don't we trail nearly all of it?

My first instinct would be to lead that turn card as well. However, his range seems sufficiently defined on the flop that the prudent option might be check/calling the turn. We have at least 6 outs against all hands but one. We're ahead of QJ. To what other hand do we not want to give a free card? Q9 and 97?

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

for me the most interesting decision here is the turn.

at first glance, i don't like the turn bet. if you didn't have the monster redraw i would agree with it because we can b/f. a high % of the time he's either folding or raising, i think and a free card sure wouldn't hurt us. the biggest drawback is that when a bet goes in(being that he's sort of passive) you are probably in worse shape than when you bet it yourself.

if i did bet/call the turn i would check/fold the river as you did.

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

[ QUOTE ]
for me the most interesting decision here is the turn.

at first glance, i don't like the turn bet. if you didn't have the monster redraw i would agree with it because we can b/f. a high % of the time he's either folding or raising, i think and a free card sure wouldn't hurt us. the biggest drawback is that when a bet goes in(being that he's sort of passive) you are probably in worse shape than when you bet it yourself.

if i did bet/call the turn i would check/fold the river as you did.

[/ QUOTE ]

if i c/c turn am i c/folding all non Q, non diamond, non J rivers?

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

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for me the most interesting decision here is the turn.

at first glance, i don't like the turn bet. if you didn't have the monster redraw i would agree with it because we can b/f. a high % of the time he's either folding or raising, i think and a free card sure wouldn't hurt us. the biggest drawback is that when a bet goes in(being that he's sort of passive) you are probably in worse shape than when you bet it yourself.

if i did bet/call the turn i would check/fold the river as you did.

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if i c/c turn am i c/folding all non Q, non diamond, non J rivers?

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against all but the most passive players, we can probably spend two big bets on the turn/river and showdown UI. when you show weakness by checking the turn, you expand the range against alot of typical(even semipassive) players and likely have enough hand to see it to the end.

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

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It seems somewhat unlikely to me that villain has J9 because he didn't cap the flop and then came alive when the flush hit on the turn.

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Seems to me that villain came alive on the flop, and stayed alive on the turn. And if he's passive I seriously doubt he'd cap anything that wasn't the nuts, let alone a flop with a flush draw out there if he didn't at least have one diamond.
At first I was thinking J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] but there's no way he doesn't r/r the turn. A loose passive would call two on the button with J9o I'm sure. But he's also not afraid to raise the flush card on the turn.. which a passive wouldn't usually do without a flush. So what else might he have? I suppose 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] is an even more likely holding than J9o, because he's just calling the r/r with his flush and gutter draws on the flop. So his raise on the flop is a bit frisky for a passive, but plausible.

Either way, OP's fold is a good one.

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

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for me the most interesting decision here is the turn.

at first glance, i don't like the turn bet. if you didn't have the monster redraw i would agree with it because we can b/f. a high % of the time he's either folding or raising, i think and a free card sure wouldn't hurt us. the biggest drawback is that when a bet goes in(being that he's sort of passive) you are probably in worse shape than when you bet it yourself.

if i did bet/call the turn i would check/fold the river as you did.

[/ QUOTE ]

if i c/c turn am i c/folding all non Q, non diamond, non J rivers?

[/ QUOTE ]

against all but the most passive players, we can probably spend two big bets on the turn/river and showdown UI. when you show weakness by checking the turn, you expand the range against alot of typical(even semipassive) players and likely have enough hand to see it to the end.

[/ QUOTE ]

using this logic, then, why not bet the turn? if im seeing a showdown for 2 BB, then I call b/c turn and fold river UI, or C/C 2 streets. and I still get value from QJ.

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

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being passive he would probably 4 bet the flop and check the turn being scared of the flush,

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Hmmm.. this seems an oxymoron to me. Passives don't 4bet anything that ain't da nuts.

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

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for me the most interesting decision here is the turn.

at first glance, i don't like the turn bet. if you didn't have the monster redraw i would agree with it because we can b/f. a high % of the time he's either folding or raising, i think and a free card sure wouldn't hurt us. the biggest drawback is that when a bet goes in(being that he's sort of passive) you are probably in worse shape than when you bet it yourself.

if i did bet/call the turn i would check/fold the river as you did.

[/ QUOTE ]

if i c/c turn am i c/folding all non Q, non diamond, non J rivers?

[/ QUOTE ]

against all but the most passive players, we can probably spend two big bets on the turn/river and showdown UI. when you show weakness by checking the turn, you expand the range against alot of typical(even semipassive) players and likely have enough hand to see it to the end.

[/ QUOTE ]

using this logic, then, why not bet the turn? if im seeing a showdown for 2 BB, then I call b/c turn and fold river UI, or C/C 2 streets. and I still get value from QJ.

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After 3banging the flop I think weakness is shown by calling the turn rather than r/r. Not advocating a r/r, mind you. But from villain's perspective he has to know OP doesn't have a flush. If he's passive and raised the flop I'd rather c/c the turn and fold the river without seeing another [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Villain has either a straight or a flush, and if he's paying attention he's putting you on no better than a set on the turn.

Sometimes value is so thin that it's actually value for the opponent.

For me, the really interesting question is whether you could make a play for the pot on the river against our passive villain once the board pairs queens.

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

Kit, I'd add aces to river cards I'd c/c.

Count, I can buy into J9 being in his range after the flop call and after the turn raise, but KQ is as well. He's described as "a bit passive," which is not (necessarily) the same as "zomg raise = nutz."

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

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for me the most interesting decision here is the turn.

at first glance, i don't like the turn bet. if you didn't have the monster redraw i would agree with it because we can b/f. a high % of the time he's either folding or raising, i think and a free card sure wouldn't hurt us. the biggest drawback is that when a bet goes in(being that he's sort of passive) you are probably in worse shape than when you bet it yourself.

if i did bet/call the turn i would check/fold the river as you did.

[/ QUOTE ]

if i c/c turn am i c/folding all non Q, non diamond, non J rivers?

[/ QUOTE ]

against all but the most passive players, we can probably spend two big bets on the turn/river and showdown UI. when you show weakness by checking the turn, you expand the range against alot of typical(even semipassive) players and likely have enough hand to see it to the end.

[/ QUOTE ]

using this logic, then, why not bet the turn? if im seeing a showdown for 2 BB, then I call b/c turn and fold river UI, or C/C 2 streets. and I still get value from QJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a live hand. i "knew" it was live, but nonetheless i'm using online thinking. so that's my bad.

with that being said, do you think passive guy is raising QJ on the flop?

how often(if ever) does he bet QJ on the turn when you check to him?

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

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with that being said, do you think passive guy is raising QJ on the flop?

how often(if ever) does he bet QJ on the turn when you check to him?

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in the 10/20 games i play in, even the passive players will raise QJ on this flop. it goes with the territory of being "straightforward." when the average 10/20 raises a flop it means either top pair, a flush draw, or 2 pair. A passive player at 10/20 is considerably more aggressive than a passive player at 2/4, for comparison's sake.

it is very unlikely he bets the turn with it after i 3 bet the flop.

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

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with that being said, do you think passive guy is raising QJ on the flop?

how often(if ever) does he bet QJ on the turn when you check to him?

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in the 10/20 games i play in, even the passive players will raise QJ on this flop. it goes with the territory of being "straightforward." when the average 10/20 raises a flop it means either top pair, a flush draw, or 2 pair. A passive player at 10/20 is considerably more aggressive than a passive player at 2/4, for comparison's sake.

it is very unlikely he bets the turn with it after i 3 bet the flop.

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yeah, your line is fine. nh.

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

i don't see why you guys don't think a flush is made on the turn.
wouldn't this guy play this way with some low suited connectors?
he has position; he can easily let it go if he doesn't hit...

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

I haven't read all of the responses, but I have a problem with calling the turn raise and folding on the river. If you are behind on the river, you were behind on the turn.

if you're planning on check/folding that river, you should not have called the turn raise, IMO.

zip

edit: i reread the hand, and I suppose there's that nutty flush draw. hmm. not sure anymore.

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

[ QUOTE ]

edit: i reread the hand, and I suppose there's that nutty flush draw. hmm. not sure anymore.

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folding the turn with the nut flush draw and an gutshot straight draw is just beyond all measure of horribleness.

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

yeah, i should really wait to post until i'm fully caffeinated.

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

I think inflating this pot with your good holding, then folding the river for ONE BET after your hand improved further is wrong IMO. Calling liberally for one bet on the river when its HU AND you improved to trips, is far less of a mistake then folding to a lesser hand for ONE BET and losing an entire pot.

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

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you improved to trips

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i fail to see how i improved vs villain's hand range.

think of RELATIVE hand strengths, folks. not absolute strengths. sometimes bottom pair is the nuts. other times a set is worthless.

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

nh.

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

easy river call by default, i'm definitely seeing this guy's hand to confirm my read 100%

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

Grunch

Hmmm...


Check call river. The pots too big, and you only need to beat him 12% of the time.

His range includes AA I think, I don't think he's raising the flop with AK, but AQ is probably in his range. I do think you are most probably up against TT or 88, and possibly even KK.

But if you figure AA,KK,TT,88 - you are good 25% of the time, so crying call for one on the river is okay.


AB

Re: I river trips and see no reason to call
 

Meh It's so borderline that the difference between calling and folding over the long-haul in this spot isn't worth discussing very far.

Read/Feal Play here, next time it might feel like a call, obviously you felt the easy fold here. Go ahead and play it that way then.