Stars $50 50K...turn set in multiway pot...ugly river...line check
 

taking a shot at the $50 MTT...please comment on my line...

preflop bet okay or too small? (7 people calling 7X OMG!)
flop check in 7 way pot?
turn raise a good size? (love the $80 lead into $860 pot)
check call river an okay line?

I though players would be a little better at $50 but wow!!??

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t10/t20
9 players

Stack sizes:
UTG: t520
UTG+1: t3410
MP1: t4800
MP2: t4140
MP3: t2970
Hero: t2950
Button: t2050
SB: t3200
BB: t2930

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG calls t20
UTG+1 calls t20
MP1 calls t20
2 folds
Hero raises to t140
Button calls t140
SB calls t130
BB folds
UTG calls t120
UTG+1 calls t120
MP1 calls t120

Flop: (t860) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks
UTG checks
UTG+1 checks
MP1 checks
Hero checks
Button checks.

Turn: (t860) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB bets t80
UTG folds
UTG+1 calls t80
MP1 calls t80
Hero raises to t500
Button calls t500
3 folds

River: (t2100) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks
Button bets t820
Hero calls t820

Final pot: t3740

Re: Stars $50 50K...turn set in multiway pot...ugly river...line check
 

wow. that's exactly what you don't want pre with JJ... a party pot. And you raised it 7x BB so wtf? I agree with the way you played this hand... i would have played it probably very similarly. It's good you didn't get too cute on the turn, I like the big raise... the club is unfortuanate, the C/C isn't a bad play... maybe that's why he was betting b/c you looked weak?

Re: Stars $50 50K...turn set in multiway pot...ugly river...line check
 

I hate the PF raise. there's nothing wrong with limping JJ... or even raise to 40. You don't want to play a big pot with it unless you hit a set and your overbet pre makes it big.
This type of play will leave you with some tough decisions for lotsa chips when you have one pair with overs on board.

Edit: forgot about the rest of the hand. Your turn raise was too small. The J isn't likely a scary card for your opponent, so raise full pot to make him pay to draw.
Check-calling his river minibet is fine.

Re: Stars $50 50K...turn set in multiway pot...ugly river...line check
 

I actually raise more pre.Yeah,I know 7x should be enough,but at this stage,w 3 limpers and blinds supersmall,you are going to get called superlight.On the other hand,I make it 200 and they'll prob call anyway so whatever...

I might bet more on the turn as well,pot is huge already,let them pay for a draw. Having said all that,I'm pretty sure he's got the flush here,and that might affect my thinking re this hand,you probably played it fine. River is a call I guess,the hand is so weird villain might have a lower set,but ya,I'm shocked if he has anything but a flush here.

Oh,btw,I never limp w JJ but I guess it is an option here

Re: Stars $50 50K...turn set in multiway pot...ugly river...line check
 

I make it 160 pre. I make it 600 on the turn. Otherwise looks good.

Re: Stars $50 50K...turn set in multiway pot...ugly river...line check
 

[ QUOTE ]
I hate the PF raise. there's nothing wrong with limping JJ... or even raise to 40. You don't want to play a big pot with it unless you hit a set and your overbet pre makes it big.
This type of play will leave you with some tough decisions for lotsa chips when you have one pair with overs on board.

Edit: forgot about the rest of the hand. Your turn raise was too small. The J isn't likely a scary card for your opponent, so raise full pot to make him pay to draw.
Check-calling his river minibet is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Brandi..for Barry's sake I will ignore the suggestion that I raise to 40...will send him into convulsions if I do that...I agree limping is okay but why would I not raise here? If anything my raise was too low...Also I am in the CO and will have good position so I could play a slightly bigger pot...also since I have not played the $50 much I didn not anticipate 7 callers to a 7X raise (is this normal???)...I think I need to raise here to narrow the field and also to snag the button (that part didnt work).

I think the flop is standard and I guess I could have bumped a little higher on turn...

Re: Stars $50 50K...turn set in multiway pot...ugly river...line check
 

NH I like it all

Re: Stars $50 50K...turn set in multiway pot...ugly river...line check
 

I think a raise to 60 or 80 leaves you room to call a reraise. The hands where you win big pots with JJ are when you have a set (esp vs an overpair). If you raise to 140 and someone has a bigger pair, they'd be a fool to not reraise and you wouldn't have the implied odds to try to hit a set.
When you raise and get called you'll see overcards on the flop most of the time (~60% iirc). While I am not afraid to play a big pot with JJ and overs on board, I don't try to create the situation.

Re: Stars $50 50K...turn set in multiway pot...ugly river...line check
 

do we see a lot of QQ+ limping? My raise ws a pure value play with the knowledge I would be in late position for the rst of the hand and that I am not married to the JJ...once again i think the big factor is I expected 1 or 2 rather than 7 callers and I think playing JJ vs a small field in position is a good thing...may be wrong though...dunno

Re: Stars $50 50K...turn set in multiway pot...ugly river...line check
 

[ QUOTE ]
I make it 160 pre. I make it 600 on the turn. Otherwise looks good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Edit: and making it t40 - t80 pf is really bad imo.

Re: Stars $50 50K...turn set in multiway pot...ugly river...line check
 

I dunno, it just seems like you're turning it into a bluff. If you can win the pot when overs hit and you don't improve, you can almost certainly win the pot with good old fashioned aggression.
I could be way off base here, but I've never been accused of being weak tight...

Re: Stars $50 50K...turn set in multiway pot...ugly river...line check *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by ssnyc

Re: Stars $50 50K...turn set in multiway pot...ugly river...line check
 

[ QUOTE ]
Edit: and making it t40 - t80 pf is really bad imo.

[/ QUOTE ]Good lord, if you're going to say I am wrong, fine. It's a discussion, but back it up with some reasoning. How the hell am I supposed to get better if you just say I play bad and leave it at that?

Re: Stars $50 50K...turn set in multiway pot...ugly river...line check
 

The reason for raising to t160 is to cut down the field, and for value. It's a pretty standard raise I don't think it turns your hand into a bluff at all, people limp utg level 1 with a wide range of hands, it doesn't mean they have Aces / Kings.

Edit: and obv I'd raise to the same amout with anything I'm raising in this spot (i.e. 3 limpers).

Re: Stars $50 50K...turn set in multiway pot...ugly river...line check
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Edit: and making it t40 - t80 pf is really bad imo.

[/ QUOTE ]Good lord, if you're going to say I am wrong, fine. It's a discussion, but back it up with some reasoning. How the hell am I supposed to get better if you just say I play bad and leave it at that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Brandi...no my comment so please don't be mad at me but I will try to field the question anyway...I don't see the purpose of miniraising because it will do what I was hoping to avoid...getting a huge field where my hand loses most of its non set value...either I just call and play it passive or I value raise pre...if I value raise pre my goal is to get people out...not in...anything under 100 is just a pot builder and doesnt accomplish my goal

Re: Stars $50 50K...turn set in multiway pot...ugly river...line check
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I dunno, it just seems like you're turning it into a bluff. If you can win the pot when overs hit and you don't improve, you can almost certainly win the pot with good old fashioned aggression.
I could be way off base here, but I've never been accused of being weak tight...

[/ QUOTE ]

definitely agree I was turning it a bluff...I think it was a worthwhile one as villan showed no strength and the chips in the middle were huge in relation to my stack...toss out a range for the villan if you don't mind Brandi...

[/ QUOTE ]
We're still talking pre, right? Crazy wide, 35 sooted Kx sooted, Ax off, small pairs... After your raise, likely the first caller or 2 had PPs or strong aces, but after that the other donks probably just thought OMG pot odds!? and called with 35 or whatever.
I don't mind the raise pre too much if you're playing it as a bluff/semi-bluff. I'd just expect that normally you're not going to get much action from junk hands and end up winning 90 chips. Obv I was wrong in this case.

[ QUOTE ]
the chips in the middle were huge in relation to my stack

[/ QUOTE ]

There really wasn't much in the pot before your raise...
I suggested a smallish raise to intentionally keep the limpers in and play for implied set value. That's generally a limit poker move, raising and expecting no one to fold, but you have enough equity that it's profitable even though you lose the hand most of the time. I think it's a concept lost on most NL players that it's frequently the best play to NOT narrow the field.

I'd prefer to see the flop 9 way and try to hit a set and make the isolation move with 78 or something like that.

Re: Stars $50 50K...turn set in multiway pot...ugly river...line check
 

[ QUOTE ]
Brandi...no my comment so please don't be mad at me but I will try to field the question anyway...I don't see the purpose of miniraising because it will do what I was hoping to avoid...getting a huge field where my hand loses most of its non set value...either I just call and play it passive or I value raise pre...if I value raise pre my goal is to get people out...not in...anything under 100 is just a pot builder and doesnt accomplish my goal

[/ QUOTE ]Does my above post explain this clearly?
Edit: not mad at you, just annoyed at the lack of content in the post contradicting me...

Re: Stars $50 50K...turn set in multiway pot...ugly river...line check
 

wow...i need a break...I posted the comments in the wrong hand...that whole post was for my bubble hand...disregard and I will have some morecoffee

Re: Stars $50 50K...turn set in multiway pot...ugly river...line check
 

Just to clarify, whatever my results or yours are, I want any of you to say so if you disagree with me. I make mistakes all the time, but we're here to help each other learn and a simple "you are wrong" doesn't help.

Re: Stars $50 50K...turn set in multiway pot...ugly river...line check
 

agreed...discussions have been invaluable. I do reserve to right to make sarcastic comments to certain posters in certain spots

Re: Stars $50 50K...turn set in multiway pot...ugly river...line check
 

[ QUOTE ]
Edit: not mad at you, just annoyed at the lack of content in the post contradicting me...

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude I explained my reasoning in my reply to you above like 10 posts ago...

Re: Stars $50 50K...turn set in multiway pot...ugly river...line check
 

[ QUOTE ]
I hate the PF raise. there's nothing wrong with limping JJ... or even raise to 40. You don't want to play a big pot with it unless you hit a set and your overbet pre makes it big.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate this advice. If you're going to come into the pot come in raising. Limping is bad, min-raising PRF here is horrid.

Your raise is fine and your play is fine. The only thing I might do different is bet 600 on the turn, but that's symantics. If you're feeling frisky, c-bet the flop after the table checked it around.

Edit: just read the rest. I'll explain. Eveyone gets odds to call with any hand if you min raise. Limping? just think it's the best way to go bust when another limpers hits a big hidden hand with junk because it's an unrasied pot. I hate unraised pot's when I'm not the guy that got lucky. 140 is becasue there's 2 limpers and 5 x the bb. It's fine.

Re: Stars $50 50K...turn set in multiway pot...ugly river...line check
 

[ QUOTE ]
The reason for raising to t160 is to cut down the field, and for value. It's a pretty standard raise I don't think it turns your hand into a bluff at all, people limp utg level 1 with a wide range of hands, it doesn't mean they have Aces / Kings.

Edit: and obv I'd raise to the same amout with anything I'm raising in this spot (i.e. 3 limpers).

[/ QUOTE ]I suggested a smallish raise for the exact reason you suggested a big one. I absolutely expect to get 5 or more callers with a raise in the 40-80 range and that's what I want...

If you assume I win the pot when I hit a set and only hit a set, it's HUGE +ev to have a bunch of people in a raised pot. Even if I have 0 implied odds, I'm getting the right pot odds to play 7 way and fish for a set. The fact that it's multiway AND raised makes it far more likely that I'll get paid off nicely when I do hit a set.

Re: Stars $50 50K...turn set in multiway pot...ugly river...line check
 

Again, I agree that sync's line is prefectly reasonable and profitable.
I just think that this line is equally or more profitable and less risky.

Re: Stars $50 50K...turn set in multiway pot...ugly river...line check
 

[/ QUOTE ]We're still talking pre, right? Crazy wide, 35 sooted Kx sooted, Ax off, small pairs... After your raise, likely the first caller or 2 had PPs or strong aces, but after that the other donks probably just thought OMG pot odds!? and called with 35 or whatever.
I don't mind the raise pre too much if you're playing it as a bluff/semi-bluff. I'd just expect that normally you're not going to get much action from junk hands and end up winning 90 chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

If it is "likely the first caller or 2 had PPs or strong aces, but after that the other donks probably...called with 35 or whatever" how often are these hands stacking off in the rare instances when you spike your set?

I'm much more confident that I'm stacking QQ-AA when I have top set of Jacks than I am in stacking 22-TT (ldo).

I just don't get why you want to take what is likely the best hand preflop (based on range you set for limpers/callers) and intentionally create a situation where you eliminate any FE, disregard the showdown value of your hand, and set mine against a range full of worse hands that will often fold when you do hit and occasionally take your stack when three Jacks is not the best hand.

Re: Stars $50 50K...turn set in multiway pot...ugly river...line check
 

[ QUOTE ]
Again, I agree that sync's line is prefectly reasonable and profitable.
I just think that this line is equally or more profitable and less risky.

[/ QUOTE ]

Brandi...I appreciate your input as usual...In this case I think your line of passive set mining is fine for smaller pairs but I think we need to take more advantage of JJ especially in good position with no strength being shown...I agree this makes for a bigger hand and harder decisions but it also will slow people from bluffing and repping hands and allow me to retain some control of the betting...I said it before...my 7X raise was designed to narrow the field...I am happy to play JJ vs 1 or opponents...

Re: Stars $50 50K...turn set in multiway pot...ugly river...line check
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The reason for raising to t160 is to cut down the field, and for value. It's a pretty standard raise I don't think it turns your hand into a bluff at all, people limp utg level 1 with a wide range of hands, it doesn't mean they have Aces / Kings.

Edit: and obv I'd raise to the same amout with anything I'm raising in this spot (i.e. 3 limpers).

[/ QUOTE ]I suggested a smallish raise for the exact reason you suggested a big one. I absolutely expect to get 5 or more callers with a raise in the 40-80 range and that's what I want...

If you assume I win the pot when I hit a set and only hit a set, it's HUGE +ev to have a bunch of people in a raised pot. Even if I have 0 implied odds, I'm getting the right pot odds to play 7 way and fish for a set. The fact that it's multiway AND raised makes it far more likely that I'll get paid off nicely when I do hit a set.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is how you play 45s, not JJ.