Bush \"Supports the Cuban People\" While Maintaining Economic Sanctions
 

What a complete and total douchemonkey. Who the [censored] does he think those sanctions hurt? Castro in his palace? Does Castro go without? I think [censored] not.

Who still buys into this economic sanctions bull [censored] anymore?
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Re: Bush \"Supports the Cuban People\" While Maintaining Economic Sanctions
 

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Who still buys into this economic sanctions bull [censored] anymore?
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1. Conservatives

2. Mainstream politicians

Obama is more liberal than most on this issue and even he isn't in favor of lifting the entire embargo, just the travel and remittance restrictions. The Clintons are embargo fans and Bill Clinton signed a tightening of the embargo after the Cubans shot down a plane carrying dissidents.

Re: Bush \"Supports the Cuban People\" While Maintaining Economic Sanctions
 

It HAS to be more than this. Que bono? Who is the special interest group that benefits from keeping Cuba under sanctions, other than Fidel Castro?

Re: Bush \"Supports the Cuban People\" While Maintaining Economic Sanctions
 

Related question...what would it take to lift the sanction? Is that something that the President can do himself, or does it have to be done by Congress?

Re: Bush \"Supports the Cuban People\" While Maintaining Economic Sanctions
 

Pretty sure it would be Congress.

Re: Bush \"Supports the Cuban People\" While Maintaining Economic Sancti
 

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It HAS to be more than this. Que bono? Who is the special interest group that benefits from keeping Cuba under sanctions, other than Fidel Castro?

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Florida is a swing state, and the Cuban immigrants hate Castro. No-one else cares. No presidential candidate is going to throw away easy votes in a swing state.

Replace the electoral college system and the embargo will go away.

Re: Bush \"Supports the Cuban People\" While Maintaining Economic Sancti
 

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It HAS to be more than this. Que bono? Who is the special interest group that benefits from keeping Cuba under sanctions, other than Fidel Castro?

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American cigar companies? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Bush \"Supports the Cuban People\" While Maintaining Economic Sancti
 

How long have the economic sanctions been in place and how has it caused the Castro regime to fold?

Re: Bush \"Supports the Cuban People\" While Maintaining Economic Sancti
 

Good point. Bush, of course, is not running next time, but the Republicans would crucify one of their own who threw away Florida's electoral votes.

Re: Bush \"Supports the Cuban People\" While Maintaining Economic Sanctions
 

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Pretty sure it would be Congress.

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Could a state legislature technically repeal the embargo in regards to their state, or does the federally impose sanctions trump that?

Re: Bush \"Supports the Cuban People\" While Maintaining Economic Sancti
 

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How long have the economic sanctions been in place and how has it caused the Castro regime to fold?

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Huh? They've been in place like 40 years, and they keep the Castro regime *in power*, rather than causing it to "fold".

Re: Bush \"Supports the Cuban People\" While Maintaining Economic Sanctions
 

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Pretty sure it would be Congress.

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Could a state legislature technically repeal the embargo in regards to their state, or does the federally impose sanctions trump that?

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Lincoln pretty much nixed this; states can no longer nullify Federal law.

Although, I suppose they could nullify *that* law.

Re: Bush \"Supports the Cuban People\" While Maintaining Economic Sanctions
 

If you guys want to do a Constitutional argument, the combination of the Supremacy clause, the Commerce clause and Congress's power to levy tariffs should make it clear that the Feds have power over foreign trade.

As far as the reason for the embargo, yes the Cuban immigrant community is largely responsible. However, this is beginning to change. The 2nd generation of immigrants that really has no knowledge of Cuba largely opposes the embargo and polling shows that only half of the Cubans support the embargo. Obama likely picked up on this which is why he's the first major candidate that I'm aware of that proposes loosening the embargo. Its just that the embargo supporters control the organizations, are the loudest and donate the most money.

Edit: I just looked and the Constitution specifically says Congress shall have the power to regulate trade with foreign nations.

Re: Bush \"Supports the Cuban People\" While Maintaining Economic Sanctions
 

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Lincoln pretty much nixed this; states can no longer nullify Federal law.

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Specifically how did he do this, and how is it still kept in effect? And how do we change it back?

Amendment? Law? Court precedent?

Re: Bush \"Supports the Cuban People\" While Maintaining Economic Sancti
 

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Lincoln pretty much nixed this; states can no longer nullify Federal law.

[/ QUOTE ]

Specifically how did he do this, and how is it still kept in effect? And how do we change it back?

Amendment? Law? Court precedent?

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Military conquest.

Re: Bush \"Supports the Cuban People\" While Maintaining Economic Sancti
 

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How long have the economic sanctions been in place and how has it caused the Castro regime to fold?

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Huh? They've been in place like 40 years, and they keep the Castro regime *in power*, rather than causing it to "fold".

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Not only have them kept the Castro regime in power, they very nearly caused the end of the world. After the Cuban revolution where Batista was overthrown, Castro was very popular in the US (among citizens obv). Of course, he was very unpopular with large corporations who's business in Cuba he nationalized. He was also unpopular with the government, partially because of those large corporations lobbying them, but also because at that point nationalist=communist in their eyes. Cue US sanctions and refusal to make trade agreements with Cuba, which then pushed Cuba towards the Soviets. And from there we have the Cuban Missile Crisis, which came unbelievably close to ending the world.

Re: Bush \"Supports the Cuban People\" While Maintaining Economic Sanctions
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Lincoln pretty much nixed this; states can no longer nullify Federal law.

[/ QUOTE ]

Specifically how did he do this, and how is it still kept in effect? And how do we change it back?

Amendment? Law? Court precedent?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd have to look up the details, but basically military conquest as said before. After the war the southern states were ejected from the Union (I [censored] you not) and as a condition of being allowed to re-enter, their legislatures (convened under the eyes of regional military dictatorships) were forced to amend their constitutions and ratify the 13th and 14th ammendments to the US constitution, IIRC.

For example, in my state's constitution:

"Sec. 4. Secession prohibited.

This State shall ever remain a member of the American Union; the people thereof are part of the American nation; there is no right on the part of this State to secede; and all attempts, from whatever source or upon whatever pretext, to dissolve this Union or to sever this Nation, shall be resisted with the whole power of the State.


Sec. 5. Allegiance to the United States.

Every citizen of this State owes paramount allegiance to the Constitution and government of the United States, and no law or ordinance of the State in contravention or subversion thereof can have any binding force."

Re: Bush \"Supports the Cuban People\" While Maintaining Economic Sancti
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lincoln pretty much nixed this; states can no longer nullify Federal law.

[/ QUOTE ]

Specifically how did he do this, and how is it still kept in effect? And how do we change it back?

Amendment? Law? Court precedent?

[/ QUOTE ]

Lincoln did not change anything. The constitution is pretty clear in saying that this is a federal issue.

No Republican will lift the embargo. The Cuban vote is too important, and they WOULD lose it if they lifted the embargo.

Re: Bush \"Supports the Cuban People\" While Maintaining Economic Sancti
 

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No Republican will lift the embargo. The Cuban vote is too important, and they WOULD lose it if they lifted the embargo.

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Why do Cubans want the embargo? Do they hate the people still stuck on the island?

Re: Bush \"Supports the Cuban People\" While Maintaining Economic Sancti
 

They hate Castro more than they like the Cuban citizens.

Re: Bush \"Supports the Cuban People\" While Maintaining Economic Sancti
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lincoln pretty much nixed this; states can no longer nullify Federal law.

[/ QUOTE ]

Specifically how did he do this, and how is it still kept in effect? And how do we change it back?

Amendment? Law? Court precedent?

[/ QUOTE ]

Lincoln did not change anything. The constitution is pretty clear in saying that this is a federal issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, no. Before Lincoln's war states had nullified Federal laws, specifically laws regarding the regulation of international trade. E.g. the Tariff of Abominations.

Re: Bush \"Supports the Cuban People\" While Maintaining Economic Sancti
 

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They hate Castro more than they like the Cuban citizens.

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Well, as Borodog mentioned earlier, sanctions hurt the citizens a lot more than Castro.

Re: Bush \"Supports the Cuban People\" While Maintaining Economic Sancti
 

Bingo. It was passed in 1962 in order to "promote a peaceful transition to democracy in Cuba through the application of sanctions directed at the Castro government and support for the Cuban people." It's now 2008. It appears the policy is either a failure or is having a glacially slow success rate.

Re: Bush \"Supports the Cuban People\" While Maintaining Economic Sancti
 

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They hate Castro more than they like the Cuban citizens.

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Well, as Borodog mentioned earlier, sanctions hurt the citizens a lot more than Castro.

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Well, part of hating Castro is the belief he's bad for Cuba. They think Castro is worse for Cuba than the embargo.

Re: Bush \"Supports the Cuban People\" While Maintaining Economic Sancti
 

Andy,

Do you view in threaded mode? If so, good God, man!

Re: Bush \"Supports the Cuban People\" While Maintaining Economic Sanctions
 

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Who still buys into this economic sanctions bull [censored] anymore?
[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
1. Conservatives

2. Liberals

3. Mainstream politicians

Obama is more liberal than most on this issue and even he isn't in favor of lifting the entire embargo, just the travel and remittance restrictions. The Clintons are embargo fans and Bill Clinton signed a tightening of the embargo after the Cubans shot down a plane carrying dissidents.

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FYP

Re: Bush \"Supports the Cuban People\" While Maintaining Economic Sancti
 

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They hate Castro more than they like the Cuban citizens.

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Castro is hardly effected by it.

Re: Bush \"Supports the Cuban People\" While Maintaining Economic Sancti
 

All tyrannical regimes need external enemies as the reason for their problems to preserve on the power. Without that they’d have to ‘invent’ them by media although that’s not so convenient and persuasive. Which mean that’s a greater threat to leaders on power for controlling over their own people. I’d say without sanctions Castro’s regime would be over a few decades ago.

So called ‘most democratic’ countries are ‘producing’ external enemies for the same reasons as well – for control over their own people and as a tool of manipulation to preserve or jump on the power. It’s a win-win situation for both regimes. The tragedy is that ordinary people are affected in both countries.

It’s easy to find some correlations with Osama bin Laden. Anyone wondering why state enemy no. 1 is not a real target for US administration? Sadly, it’s because he’s worth much more to them alive for the same reasons as above. A clear win-win situation for both parties again and ordinary people are paying the price on both sites again.

Re: Bush \"Supports the Cuban People\" While Maintaining Economic Sancti
 

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They hate Castro more than they like the Cuban citizens.

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Well, as Borodog mentioned earlier, sanctions hurt the citizens a lot more than Castro.

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Well, part of hating Castro is the belief he's bad for Cuba. They think Castro is worse for Cuba than the embargo.

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Right so why support BOTH bad things?

Re: Bush \"Supports the Cuban People\" While Maintaining Economic Sancti
 

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All tyrannical regimes need external enemies as the reason for their problems to preserve on the power.

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No they don't. They do that sometimes but there are plenty of people who enjoy the jackboot.

Re: Bush \"Supports the Cuban People\" While Maintaining Economic Sancti
 

Those sanctions hurt the Cuban people, just like the sancions against Iraq decimated the population there. The U.S administration doesn't give a crap about the people who will potentially die as a result of their actions...

Re: Bush \"Supports the Cuban People\" While Maintaining Economic Sancti
 

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All tyrannical regimes need external enemies as the reason for their problems to preserve on the power.

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No they don't. They do that sometimes but there are plenty of people who enjoy the jackboot.

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Does plenty = enough? It seems it does but then that makes me doubt your assertion.

Re: Bush \"Supports the Cuban People\" While Maintaining Economic Sancti
 

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It HAS to be more than this. Que bono? Who is the special interest group that benefits from keeping Cuba under sanctions, other than Fidel Castro?

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American cigar companies? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

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Very true BCPV!

OTOH, everybody else, besides US citizens, or non-US citizens residents in the US, can currently enjoy Cuban cigars at a much cheaper prices than they will be as soon as the embargo is lifted. I think I have enough cubans for the rest of my life, as well as for friends! I have been stocking up, they are just so far superior to anything else! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Bush \"Supports the Cuban People\" While Maintaining Economic Sancti
 

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All tyrannical regimes need external enemies as the reason for their problems to preserve on the power.

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No they don't. They do that sometimes but there are plenty of people who enjoy the jackboot.

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Does plenty = enough? It seems it does but then that makes me doubt your assertion.

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I will dig up references but I recall populations on isolated islands in the pre-industrial era that were ruled by monarchs. No possibility of outside threats there.

Re: Bush \"Supports the Cuban People\" While Maintaining Economic Sancti
 

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They hate Castro more than they like the Cuban citizens.

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Castro is hardly effected by it.

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Seeing as he's dead... this is def true.

Re: Bush \"Supports the Cuban People\" While Maintaining Economic Sancti
 

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Those sanctions hurt the Cuban people, just like the sancions against Iraq decimated the population there. The U.S administration doesn't give a crap about the people who will potentially die as a result of their actions...

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If a majority of cuban citizens were dying every day because of the "evil" U.S. that you ninnys always like to portray. Then they would have risen up and got rid of that jerk off castro a long time ago. Set up some pro U.S. donkey and Prosperity would return to Cuba.

Don't blame the U.S. for the cowardice of the iraqi and Cuban populations

Re: Bush \"Supports the Cuban People\" While Maintaining Economic Sancti
 

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All tyrannical regimes need external enemies as the reason for their problems to preserve on the power.

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No they don't. They do that sometimes but there are plenty of people who enjoy the jackboot.

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Does plenty = enough? It seems it does but then that makes me doubt your assertion.

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I will dig up references but I recall populations on isolated islands in the pre-industrial era that were ruled by monarchs. No possibility of outside threats there.

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Really? No possibility? I suppose if you just mean other tribes.

Re: Bush \"Supports the Cuban People\" While Maintaining Economic Sancti
 

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Those sanctions hurt the Cuban people, just like the sancions against Iraq decimated the population there. The U.S administration doesn't give a crap about the people who will potentially die as a result of their actions...

[/ QUOTE ]

If a majority of cuban citizens were dying every day because of the "evil" U.S. that you ninnys always like to portray. Then they would have risen up and got rid of that jerk off castro a long time ago. Set up some pro U.S. donkey and Prosperity would return to Cuba.

Don't blame the U.S. for the cowardice of the iraqi and Cuban populations

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This is very reasonable. At the level of suffering 1 suffering unit below the boiling point, who the [censored] cares about them, amirite?

BTW the ACist argument against the embargo has little to do with helping any poor Cubans. Basically, I want some Cuban cigars so mind your own [censored] business. Its just the sissy caring part of us that makes us care about the poor Cubans.

Re: Bush \"Supports the Cuban People\" While Maintaining Economic Sancti
 

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All tyrannical regimes need external enemies as the reason for their problems to preserve on the power.

[/ QUOTE ]

No they don't. They do that sometimes but there are plenty of people who enjoy the jackboot.

[/ QUOTE ]
Does plenty = enough? It seems it does but then that makes me doubt your assertion.

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I will dig up references but I recall populations on isolated islands in the pre-industrial era that were ruled by monarchs. No possibility of outside threats there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Monarchy != "tyrannical regime".

Totalitarian dictatorship is much more closely aligned with democracy than monarchy.

Re: Bush \"Supports the Cuban People\" While Maintaining Economic Sanctions
 

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What a complete and total douchemonkey. Who the [censored] does he think those sanctions hurt? Castro in his palace? Does Castro go without? I think [censored] not.

Who still buys into this economic sanctions bull [censored] anymore?
[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

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Never have, never will. Castro would've been gone long ago had we just traded with Cuba from the start.