Overs w/a side of back door flush draw
 

Live 3/6 75/25 LP/TAG 1 slight LAG

MP=LP
HJ=TAG (Maybe...I didn't have much of a read.)
CO=TAG (Senior, rockish, had already been playing 13 hrs straight that day)

HERO on the button with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

PF folded to MP
MP calls
HJ calls
CO calls
Hero raises
Blinds fold
limpers call

Flop 9sb [9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]]
MP bets
HJ calls
CO calls
Hero ?

Here is my thinking...
12 sb to Hero
Outs: 3 A, 3 K, 1.5 BDFD = 7.5
These might need to discounted for hands like AA, KK, sets and 2 pair.
Outs: 1.5 A, 1.5 K, 1.5 BDFD = 4.5

Re: Overs w/a side of back door flush draw
 

... calls and re-evaluates. You can't fold this getting 12:1 closing the action. And surely you can't be considering raising.

Re: Overs w/a side of back door flush draw
 

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... calls and re-evaluates. You can't fold this getting 12:1 closing the action. And surely you can't be considering raising.

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Re: Overs w/a side of back door flush draw
 

Ok good. This seemed obv to me too. Some table talk made me think twice about it.

Continuing on...

Hero calls

Turn 6.5bb [9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ]
MP Bets
HJ Calls
CO Folds
Hero Calls

River 9.5bb [9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]]
MP Checks
HJ Bets
Hero ?

Re: Overs w/a side of back door flush draw
 

I prefer a call on the river. MP may overcall closing the action. A raise will result in a re-raise by the Ac and a likely fold by just about everything else.

Re: Overs w/a side of back door flush draw
 

Raise the flop (intending to check turn unless you make a pair). Passive MP is rarely going to three bet you and if he does you know your A/K outs are no good and can just fold (unless you have odds to draw to your backdoor stuff).

Call the turn.

Re: Overs w/a side of back door flush draw
 

...calls again because we're big fat calling stations. Give MP a chance to call with just a jack or a weaker club. Don't re-open the betting against the HJ, who could have your 9th nut hand beat.

Re: Overs w/a side of back door flush draw
 

Call, go for the overcall.

Re: Overs w/a side of back door flush draw
 

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Raise the flop (intending to check turn unless you make a pair). Passive MP is rarely going to three bet you and if he does you know your A/K outs are no good and can just fold (unless you have odds to draw to your backdoor stuff).

Call the turn.

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And call the river.

Re: Overs w/a side of back door flush draw
 

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Raise the flop (intending to check turn unless you make a pair). Passive MP is rarely going to three bet you and if he does you know your A/K outs are no good and can just fold (unless you have odds to draw to your backdoor stuff).

Call the turn.

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Here when you raise on the flop, the only benefit is the free card. With a strong draw, the benefits would be the free card + padding the pot with equity. I don't thing the free card alone is enough to go for a free card here, because a lot of the time, we won't get free card anyway.

Re: Overs w/a side of back door flush draw
 

This is live you can usually tell if he has the Ac or not. If I don't think he does I'll raise otherwise call.

Re: Overs w/a side of back door flush draw
 

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Raise the flop (intending to check turn unless you make a pair). Passive MP is rarely going to three bet you and if he does you know your A/K outs are no good and can just fold (unless you have odds to draw to your backdoor stuff).

Call the turn.

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Here when you raise on the flop, the only benefit is the free card. With a strong draw, the benefits would be the free card + padding the pot with equity. I don't thing the free card alone is enough to go for a free card here, because a lot of the time, we won't get free card anyway.

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It's actually possible that we have decent equity here as having up to 8 or so outs is certainly possible. But the idea of raising is definately for a free card which will will get probably atleast 80% of the time.

Re: Overs w/a side of back door flush draw
 

call the river

Re: Overs w/a side of back door flush draw
 

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Raise the flop (intending to check turn unless you make a pair). Passive MP is rarely going to three bet you and if he does you know your A/K outs are no good and can just fold (unless you have odds to draw to your backdoor stuff).

Call the turn.

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Here when you raise on the flop, the only benefit is the free card. With a strong draw, the benefits would be the free card + padding the pot with equity. I don't thing the free card alone is enough to go for a free card here, because a lot of the time, we won't get free card anyway.

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It's actually possible that we have decent equity here as having up to 8 or so outs is certainly possible. But the idea of raising is definately for a free card which will will get probably atleast 80% of the time.

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My read on the table would make me think it would only be about 40% of the time. There is a lot of donk betting going on. The other thing is I'm not sure I would like to be 3bet if I did raise.

Re: Overs w/a side of back door flush draw
 

So you have 2 limp callers preflop
MP bets the action on the flop and is LP according to your description so i put him on the J here. Now if he were LAG he could be betting anything, but the passive part makes me believe he hit the flop pretty decent make Q-J or K-J

The TJ who you describe is TAG and just calls the bet so his range is not really defined yet IMO, but he is aggressive so IF he hit the board I would guess a raise from him. So he is drawing to something a straight chasing that small flush? 7-8s or 8-10s with diamonds maybe? Not sure maybe a small pair hoping to spike a set on the turn with odds to call.

CO playing alot that day which to me means he is mixing things up typical old guys who sit for that long start getting pissed at the hands they see win and will loosen up after this much time so I would be afraid of his flat call here. On 2 pair and not afraid of the flush taking his chances? Not real sure he could have a weak J. Something like J-5 or 9-8s maybe or K-rag hoping a non club King hits the turn.


Looking on to the turn and river now:
CO either had that small pair on the board or whiffed completely on the turn and is cutting his losses.

MP loose passive and bets the flush on the board I reevaluate and say he just hit his small flush because LP check folds here with a 3rd club on the turn unless he has something like A-J with the Ace being a club.

On the river:
MP checks for a check raise? More likely than not he had the J on the flop and never really improved unless you know him to check raise because even a LP player will check raise with the Ace of clubs here.

HJ now bets and probably was putting you guys on something you were afraid of because that is how it was played. I say he is bluffing the club with a small one hoping to push you guys out and take the pot with his small flush.

YOU: On that board it is an abvious call unless you know MP will check raise.

Re: Overs w/a side of back door flush draw
 

I call the river cause lots of stuff beats you. I call the turn, obviously. The flop is dependent on your table read; if you think the free card play is going to work almost always (and are fairly sure you won't get 3 bet), then you could try it. Without a strong read on the table though, calling the flop would be my default play. It turns your hand face up for observant opponents, but whatever....

Re: Overs w/a side of back door flush draw
 

Jesus we have some brilliant replies here. lol Does anyone think critically about the hand in question and answer based off the reads provided?

Re: Overs w/a side of back door flush draw
 

i dont see whats so complicated about this hand

call flop

call turn

call river

next hand. no analysis required.

i think it was pokerbob who said that most hands in limit play themselves. dont make things harder than they have to be.

Re: Overs w/a side of back door flush draw
 

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Raise the flop (intending to check turn unless you make a pair). Passive MP is rarely going to three bet you and if he does you know your A/K outs are no good and can just fold (unless you have odds to draw to your backdoor stuff).

Call the turn.

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Here when you raise on the flop, the only benefit is the free card. With a strong draw, the benefits would be the free card + padding the pot with equity. I don't thing the free card alone is enough to go for a free card here, because a lot of the time, we won't get free card anyway.

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It's actually possible that we have decent equity here as having up to 8 or so outs is certainly possible. But the idea of raising is definately for a free card which will will get probably atleast 80% of the time.

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My read on the table would make me think it would only be about 40% of the time. There is a lot of donk betting going on. The other thing is I'm not sure I would like to be 3bet if I did raise.

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Obviously it's fine not to raise for a free card when you have an abnormal table that makes it less likely that it will work.

But really I don't think that it's bad when a passive guy 3bets you... you can just fold. Must better than hitting your A/K on the turn and putting in a multiple bets when you are dead.

Re: Overs w/a side of back door flush draw
 

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Jesus we have some brilliant replies here. lol Does anyone think critically about the hand in question and answer based off the reads provided?

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Ok....I think it's a pretty freaking easy hand, but what the heck, I'll bite.

Flop: Have you seen this LP guy 3-bet the flop yet this session? Is he completely incapable of it (wouldn't do it with top pair, but would slow down with a set) or is it possible? If it's possible, I'd just call. Have you seen either other villain limp-3 bet a flop? If so, I just call. If you've never seen either, then I think the free card play might be an alright thing to do. If you raise, you're going to have a large pot on your hands on the turn, and most of the time you're still going to be standing there with your dick in your hand, along with a 3 flush and ace high. All in all, I like the call unless you are VERY sure you will get to see the river for free if you raise.

Turn: I don't see any debate here. A raise isn't going to win the hand, you can't beat anything, and you have as many as 15 outs (or as few as 0). I call, whether my opponents are Moe, Larry and Curly or Gus, Phil and Doyle.

River: You've made a 1 card king high flush on a paired board. The LP player is yet to act, and will likely pay off one bet with his pair. If you raise, there are few hands that can pay you off (really only a couple of flushes) you could get nastily 3-bet. The read on the bettor says he's not messing around; I might not even raise him with the A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Overs w/a side of back door flush draw
 

For the most part I agree with this. And while I agree 'most' LHE hands play themselves, we are here for discussion of said hands right?

Re: Overs w/a side of back door flush draw
 

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For the most part I agree with this. And while I agree 'most' LHE hands play themselves, we are here for discussion of said hands right?

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You're an angry idiot.
You're not as good as you think.
Tone it down.

Re: Overs w/a side of back door flush draw
 

i call all three streets

Re: Overs w/a side of back door flush draw
 

Why would you not call every street?

Call the flop getting 12:1 with overs and two backdoor draws.

You hit a legitimate draw on the turn. Call.

You hit it on the river and want to get money in the pot without pushing out worse hands or getting punished by better ones. Call.

Don't listen to table banter on how you play a hand. Don't ever defend yourself. Smile, say nice hand (and be nice about it, don't say it sarcastically), and sit there waiting for the next one to start.

It is +EV to be nice to the fish. To be honest, most of them are nice people anyways, so don't talk to them about poker, because they won't understand and you wouldn't want them to anyways.

Re: Overs w/a side of back door flush draw
 

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Why would you not call every street?

Call the flop getting 12:1 with overs and two backdoor draws.

You hit a legitimate draw on the turn. Call.

You hit it on the river and want to get money in the pot without pushing out worse hands or getting punished by better ones. Call.

Don't listen to table banter on how you play a hand. Don't ever defend yourself. Smile, say nice hand (and be nice about it, don't say it sarcastically), and sit there waiting for the next one to start.

It is +EV to be nice to the fish. To be honest, most of them are nice people anyways, so don't talk to them about poker, because they won't understand and you wouldn't want them to anyways.

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Stop. Just stop it. This makes way too much sense. I can't handle it.