10-20 Foxwoods hand against typical 10-20 old Fox.
 

Late Friday night 10-20 game. Table is playing tight passive pf and aggressive after the flop. Villain in the bb is an old (65ish) 10-20 regular wearing a baseball hat.

I have AJo on the cutoff. 3 limpers, I raise, bilnds and limpers call. Hooray!

flop: J 9 4. I think it was rainbow. checked to me, I bet, sb, bb, and 1 limper call.

Turn: 8. SB checks. BB bets. limper calls. and I ?


RESULTS: Drama not needed. I called (as usual). sb folded.

River: a J. BB bets, limper folds. Wonderful, the rock isn't scared when the scariest card came. I call and he turns over Q10s.

comments?

Re: 10-20 Foxwoods hand against typical 10-20 old Fox.
 

Don't post results. You're getting 10:1 or so on the turn which is PLENTY as you'll see 98o and J8 etc. which you have six outs+ to counterfeit.

Re: 10-20 Foxwoods hand against typical 10-20 old Fox.
 

Rocks are so rocky sometimes. I guess you could fold the turn but I don't because he may have 89 and then you have 8 outs. With that logic you could then fold the river because rocks don't bet when they just got outdrawn. In reality I call down in this spot as well, though I could fold the river if the J doesn't come.

Re: 10-20 Foxwoods hand against typical 10-20 old Fox.
 

Tough one.

Well, pot is $200 on the turn at your action.

For his range here from my knowledge of Fox 10-20 rocks, I'd say:

Two pair (89,J8,84 even -- he is BB in a multiway pot)
QT,T7
Set of 8s

Most Fox 10-20 players weak lead when they get there, rather than check-raise (at least IMO). So from that, I'm guessing he got there this street (turn). Getting 10-1, you've got:

8 outs versus turned 2 pairs 89, 84 and 6 outs vs J8
No outs vs the two str8s
No outs vs the the set.

Mathematically, it seems like a wash, so ugh.

I say call turn based on the small chance he tured OE with a hand like JT or something.

On river, don't overcall unimproved.

You probably shouldn't call unimproved either, but I would, cuz I'm a donkey.

Re: 10-20 Foxwoods hand against typical 10-20 old Fox.
 

Folding a blank river sucks... as would folding the turn.

Re: 10-20 Foxwoods hand against typical 10-20 old Fox.
 

thank you. Does anyone advise the more cut-throat apporach of raising the turn to clean up some outs, and then folding to a 3 bet?

Re: 10-20 Foxwoods hand against typical 10-20 old Fox.
 

no, because the only reason we call the turn is that some of the time he has two pair that we can counterfeit -- seems like raising there just charges us extra and then we don't even see the river sometimes.

Re: 10-20 Foxwoods hand against typical 10-20 old Fox.
 

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Folding a blank river sucks... as would folding the turn.

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Re: 10-20 Foxwoods hand against typical 10-20 old Fox.
 

Turn= Raise. Any more action = fold.

Re: 10-20 Foxwoods hand against typical 10-20 old Fox.
 

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Turn= Raise. Any more action = fold.

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yuck

turn = call and re-evaluate river. depending on villian i could fold a lot of river cards.

Re: 10-20 Foxwoods hand against typical 10-20 old Fox.
 

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Turn= Raise. Any more action = fold.

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yuck

turn = call and re-evaluate river. depending on villian i could fold a lot of river cards.

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turn raise is pretty standard in live play, most "turn donks" are draws, but it is read dependant, when im at a game, i always figure out what a "turn donk" means by every player who does it, but with no info im raising 100% of time and folding to a 3 bet at foxwoods, online the pots are usually heads up and players are crazy, so id prolly just let him bluff his chips off

Re: 10-20 Foxwoods hand against typical 10-20 old Fox.
 

If this bb player is "Fox" then this turn donk is NOT a draw. He has J8 at worse (89 ~5% of the time). Depending on how he views you he may go for a C/R with 2pair (I know he would against me). I call the Turn and fold the River Unimproved.
The J on the River with him still betting puts away the thought that he has 89.
We are beat, but I still call because I play bad.

Re: 10-20 Foxwoods hand against typical 10-20 old Fox.
 

My experience of turn donks @ FW 10/20 is they are looking for a raise so they can 3-bet. River donks are to possibly get a fold with a mediocre hand or draw that didn't come in...

That said it depends on the player. There are several I would fold to on the turn.

Barring a read, I call turn and re-evaluate on river. In this case I call the river and when I lose, explain how bad I am at poker.

Re: 10-20 Foxwoods hand against typical 10-20 old Fox.
 

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My experience of turn donks @ FW 10/20 is they are looking for a raise so they can 3-bet. River donks are to possibly get a fold with a mediocre hand or draw that didn't come in...

That said it depends on the player. There are several I would fold to on the turn.

Barring a read, I call turn and re-evaluate on river. In this case I call the river and when I lose, explain how bad I am at poker.

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at 20-40+ they are never looking to B3B, so I doubt they are at 10-20 because Foxwoods is just a pool of terrible players at every level who never get better. online everyone is looking to B3B but since everyone knows it u have to figure out what level u/they are on. If it is "Fox" then Id say u prolly are beat but its read dependant.

If u raised the river, this guy would hold his cards up, show his neighbor his str8, and make a crying call.

Re: 10-20 Foxwoods hand against typical 10-20 old Fox.
 

If villain will ever 3-bet with 2 pair, raising is terrible. If not, quite standard.

Re: 10-20 Foxwoods hand against typical 10-20 old Fox.
 

Thank you. Most interesting is what type of advocates raising verse calling. I think this turn better has either a str8 or 2 pair. The set seems unlikely, but a draw or pair+draw is virtually nonexistant for this guy's stereotype.

does he have the str8 or 2-pair more often? I should ask him for his range. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: 10-20 Foxwoods hand against typical 10-20 old Fox.
 

A lot of the replies here are just plain wrong against the typical tight 10-20 FW player. Many of the older regulars are really easy to read, and against some I'm more than willing to drop TP/TK on the turn here. Raising is giving away 2 bets, or maybe a couple hours work if you will. Note I said some of them.

Re: 10-20 Foxwoods hand against typical 10-20 old Fox.
 

Even fold it for one bet in a pot this large?

Re: 10-20 Foxwoods hand against typical 10-20 old Fox.
 

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A lot of the replies here are just plain wrong against the typical tight 10-20 FW player. Many of the older regulars are really easy to read, and against some I'm more than willing to drop TP/TK on the turn here. Raising is giving away 2 bets, or maybe a couple hours work if you will. Note I said some of them.

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the bottom line is it is read dependant, the foxwoods game is so easy that a turn-donk is a laydown or a raise, u just got to find out early in the session what it means. When i am in a new casino, i pay close atttention and look at big streets closely and i tell my students at foxwoods, find out what each players turn action is ( what is the turn donk mean, what does each turn raise mean), if i get raised on the turn and i have tp/tk i will threw it away against 95%+ of foxwoods players, but if it is Sergio, Gene, Josh , Doc Jose etc i have to look these players up.


Also, i knew the guy Bill (initials bk also, who plays the 10 and 20 games) is a weak tight older player but his turn donk is 100% a draw, and for him i raise it 100% of time. If i have no reads im raising and i think it usually works out to be the correct play.

This game is so easy because of reads on players that i mucked qq preflop because these guys are so predictable.

Re: 10-20 Foxwoods hand against typical 10-20 old Fox.
 

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Even fold it for one bet in a pot this large?

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Yes. As a general example, If your read is that you're beat 95% of the time in a 10 BB pot, you fold. And I fully understand say, Miller's advice about not folding in large pots, but there comes a point where you have to trust your reads and correctly estimate your chances, and save bets where appropriate.

Re: 10-20 Foxwoods hand against typical 10-20 old Fox.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A lot of the replies here are just plain wrong against the typical tight 10-20 FW player. Many of the older regulars are really easy to read, and against some I'm more than willing to drop TP/TK on the turn here. Raising is giving away 2 bets, or maybe a couple hours work if you will. Note I said some of them.

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the bottom line is it is read dependant, the foxwoods game is so easy that a turn-donk is a laydown or a raise, u just got to find out early in the session what it means. When i am in a new casino, i pay close atttention and look at big streets closely and i tell my students at foxwoods, find out what each players turn action is ( what is the turn donk mean, what does each turn raise mean), if i get raised on the turn and i have tp/tk i will threw it away against 95%+ of foxwoods players, but if it is Sergio, Gene, Josh , Doc Jose etc i have to look these players up.


Also, i knew the guy Bill (initials bk also, who plays the 10 and 20 games) is a weak tight older player but his turn donk is 100% a draw, and for him i raise it 100% of time. If i have no reads im raising and i think it usually works out to be the correct play.

This game is so easy because of reads on players that i mucked qq preflop because these guys are so predictable.

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Good post