Villain open shove flops in 3bet pot
 

No real reads on villain here, but he seems pretty bad. Snap call? Wierd spot =/

Full Tilt Poker, $1/$2 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

UTG: $79.55
CO: $77.15
BTN: $199.60
SB: $192
Hero (BB): $393.40

Pre-Flop: K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BB)
3 folds, <font color="red">SB raises to $6</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $22</font>, SB calls $16

Flop: ($44) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB bets $170 and is All-In</font>

Results: $44 Pot ($44 Rake)

Re: Villain open shove flops in 3bet pot
 

We've had these threads before. It's a call, and a relatively snappy one at that.

Re: Villain open shove flops in 3bet pot
 

what nielsio said

Re: Villain open shove flops in 3bet pot
 

Yea, it's more of a check up than me being genuinly concerned a snap call is the wrong move.

Obviously he flopped the nuts, but it just seems like such a wierd play i'm starting to question if his range is wide enough to make it an insta-call. What is he doing this with?

-Andy

Re: Villain open shove flops in 3bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yea, it's more of a check up than me being genuinly concerned a snap call is the wrong move.

Obviously he flopped the nuts, but it just seems like such a wierd play i'm starting to question if his range is wide enough to make it an insta-call. What is he doing this with?

-Andy

[/ QUOTE ]

tp, 2nd pair, fd, fd+pair, pair+gutter, gutter+overcard, OESD, AA, air, etc.

Re: Villain open shove flops in 3bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
What is he doing this with?

-Andy

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly, if the villain is bad I don't think there is much point trying to answer this question. What goes through the fishies heads is a mystery to me most of the time. Since they don't conform to 'traditional' logic, there's not much point in trying to assign a range in this type of spot. I mean, it could be 22.

Just snapcall and berate [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Villain open shove flops in 3bet pot
 

ive seen guys do this with QT etc, def with just spades. ez call

Re: Villain open shove flops in 3bet pot
 

easy call

Re: Villain open shove flops in 3bet pot
 

The problem is with no real reads it's hard to lay down, but his bet is large enough that laydown is the play against many players.

Preflop seems consistent with AQ, 99, 88 or JTs of hands you fear rather than AA or QQ, but who knows. Postflop, this is a huge bet, and those usually aren't bluffs. So what "real" hands can he have on this flop that you beat? TT? JJ? 77 and down? KQ?

Against a true unknown, I think I'd need more of an overlay to call.

Re: Villain open shove flops in 3bet pot
 

snap

Re: Villain open shove flops in 3bet pot
 

You are going to call off ur bankroll with those snap judegements, imho.

Re: Villain open shove flops in 3bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
The problem is with no real reads it's hard to lay down, but his bet is large enough that laydown is the play against many players.

Preflop seems consistent with AQ, 99, 88 or JTs of hands you fear rather than AA or QQ, but who knows. Postflop, this is a huge bet, and those usually aren't bluffs. So what "real" hands can he have on this flop that you beat? TT? JJ? 77 and down? KQ?

Against a true unknown, I think I'd need more of an overlay to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

On this wet board w/ KK this becomes a snap-call.

Re: Villain open shove flops in 3bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]

You are going to call off ur bankroll with those snap judegements, imho.

[/ QUOTE ]

He doesn't have implied odds in a threebet pot. So since its already a winning play, noone is calling off their bankroll.

Frogic

Re: Villain open shove flops in 3bet pot
 

Look, the preflop raise by villain is ambitious and his call preflop with JT out of position is bad.

But when he then shoves $170 into a $44 pot, the question is what hands will he really do this with that KK is ahead of?

It's one thing to make longterm -EV calls preflop, as many losing players do. It's another thing to go all in for 4x the pot on the flop. Many fewer players will do that without a legit hand. The only hands I'd put him on raising preflop and than pushing flop that I beat are AQ, KQ, JJ and TT. Against AA, JT, 99 or 88 I'm toast. Okay, so somtimes I'm against a really bad player who will do this with any Q (or with hands like Q8 or 98, which I'm also behind) or even as a total bluff. But more often I'm against someone with at least some respect for money who wouldn't put in this big of a bet without more than TP. Automatically calling with just an overpair here getting only slightly over even odds is a good way to get broke.

Re: Villain open shove flops in 3bet pot
 

If this were a 27Q board, it's a fold. As there're so many draws that would like some fold equity, as well as lots of combo draws that you're close to, I don't really see how you can fold.

It's definitely a note on him though.

Re: Villain open shove flops in 3bet pot
 

You can fold because you are far from pot commited and it's pretty likely you're beat.

Re: Villain open shove flops in 3bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
If this were a 27Q board, it's a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

OMG. I snap call both (and I am not a calling station !!!).

Re: Villain open shove flops in 3bet pot
 

cawl

Re: Villain open shove flops in 3bet pot
 

It seems like the consensus is "omg, I have Kings, I call". Or maybe "rofl, other players are all maniacs, I call".

Or is there a level of actual thought I'm missing here?

Re: Villain open shove flops in 3bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
It seems like the consensus is "omg, I have Kings, I call". Or maybe "rofl, other players are all maniacs, I call".

Or is there a level of actual thought I'm missing here?

[/ QUOTE ]

villain is an idiot

Re: Villain open shove flops in 3bet pot
 

"No real reads on villain here, but he seems pretty bad. "

With a read that villain is in fact very reckless/bluffing maniac, of course this would be a snap call. But op says he really doesn't have a read -- other that villain "seems bad". But a bad player who will make foolish calls preflop is a lot different than a bad player who will go all in for 4x pot/340bbs post flop.

Re: Villain open shove flops in 3bet pot
 

I think shoving 5x pot is a read that villain is bad. My default would be to call here unless I'd a read not to

Re: Villain open shove flops in 3bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
It seems like the consensus is "omg, I have Kings, I call". Or maybe "rofl, other players are all maniacs, I call".

Or is there a level of actual thought I'm missing here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hardly anyone ever takes this line with a hand that beats hero.

Re: Villain open shove flops in 3bet pot
 

lol, people still talking about this hand?

Re: Villain open shove flops in 3bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
He doesn't have implied odds in a threebet pot. So since its already a winning play

[/ QUOTE ]quite sure you're wrong about this if you're thinking a pocket pair because he's getting 12.375:1 on his call preflop w/implied odds.

Re: Villain open shove flops in 3bet pot
 

"Hardly anyone takes this line with a hand that beats hero".

This seems clearly wrong.

Re: Villain open shove flops in 3bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
You can fold because you are far from pot commited and it's pretty likely you're beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know this because you fold here so often and get to see the idiot's cards, right?

Oh, wait...

Folding here is burning money. It's laughable that you advocate "saving" money when folding here as a favorite over his range is a $56 mistake. You have to play a [censored] ton of winning poker to make that up.


Board: 7s 8h Qs
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 40.767% 40.16% 00.61% 31008 472.50 { QQ+, 99-88, AsKs, AsJs, AsTs, As8s, As7s, As6s, As5s, As4s, As3s, As2s, JTs, Q8o+, JTo }
Hand 1: 59.233% 58.62% 00.61% 45267 472.50 { KcKh }

$386*.59 = $226 - $170 to call = $56.

Re: Villain open shove flops in 3bet pot
 

Here's the thing, though. The real question is how does his large push affect his likely range? Barry Greenstein has written very well about this in his book. He recounts a hand where he was a huge odds dog to have the nuts, but actually did. The guy who called went into a big odds discussion, but Greenstein points out that, to him, it was 100% obvious he had th enuts since he never would have gone all in otherwise.

Anyway, Against an idiot/or maniac you are clearly a big favorite. Against a more typical loose/bad player, I think you are behind substantially more often than ahead when they are willing to put this much into the pot.

Re: Villain open shove flops in 3bet pot
 

lol at folding, fist pump time

Re: Villain open shove flops in 3bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If this were a 27Q board, it's a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

OMG. I snap call both (and I am not a calling station !!!).

[/ QUOTE ]
i rarely see a villain making overbet pushes with that type of board - only on drawy ones b/c 1) they hit their hand hard, or 2) they have a nice looking draw

Re: Villain open shove flops in 3bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
lol, people still talking about this hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Villain open shove flops in 3bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]

Anyway, Against an idiot/or maniac you are clearly a big favorite. Against a more typical loose/bad player, I think you are behind substantially more often than ahead when they are willing to put this much into the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain bets $170 into $44. I wonder, IS he an idiot/maniac?

HMMMMMMMMM. I JUST CAN'T TELL. WHAT WILL I EVER DO...

Please. Leave the estimates on ranges to those of who pretty much ALWAYS call here, and therefore get to actually SEE what players do this with.

Since you always fold here, your estimated range consists of your MUBS-oriented imagination of what bad players do this with and the sample size of hole cards that you have seen in this situation is small.

Re: Villain open shove flops in 3bet pot
 

You are correct that I've played many fewer no limit hands than others here. However, I've played casino/Internet poker for almost a decade now and co-authored two poker books (The Pocket Idiot's Guide to Texas Hold'em and The Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells) . I've also played quite a bit of small stakes n/l online because it is where the fish are, and am a solid winner. However I typically play just one n/l table (6-max or hu) and one table of limit HORSE, stud or HE. So I really focus on individual player styles.

What I'm struggling with here is that there's just an assumption "okay the typical player will push for this much with a really wide range". While I've played maniacs who played this way, most bad players don't -- they will often over commit preflop hoping to hit, but when they push this big postflop, it often means this is the time they made it. Paying them off automatically seems like a pretty big hole. In fact, pushing was a great play for the villain here -- OP assumed he was an idiot and snap called drawing almost dead.

Re: Villain open shove flops in 3bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
You are correct that I've played many fewer no limit hands than others here. However, I've played casino/Internet poker for almost a decade now and co-authored two poker books (The Pocket Idiot's Guide to Texas Hold'em and The Ultimate Guide to Poker Tells) . I've also played quite a bit of small stakes n/l online because it is where the fish are, and am a solid winner. However I typically play just one n/l table (6-max or hu) and one table of limit HORSE, stud or HE. So I really focus on individual player styles.

What I'm struggling with here is that there's just an assumption "okay the typical player will push for this much with a really wide range". While I've played maniacs who played this way, most bad players don't -- they will often over commit preflop hoping to hit, but when they push this big postflop, it often means this is the time they made it. Paying them off automatically seems like a pretty big hole. In fact, pushing was a great play for the villain here -- OP assumed he was an idiot and snap called drawing almost dead.

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense man, but you're waaaay off here. Bilbo's range was actually pretty generous, they show up with lots and lots of smaller pairs, other 7's 8's and Q's here and just pure trash.

also, and again, no offense but "In fact, pushing was a great play for the villain here -- OP assumed he was an idiot and snap called drawing almost dead." shows a deep and fundamental flaw in your thought process wrt nlhe.

Re: Villain open shove flops in 3bet pot
 

Sigh. But who is "they"? Would you play the hand this way? Do 90% of the players you play against play this way? 60%? You really think most players that will call a $16 raise with 77 or A5 preflop will now push for $170 on this flop? I think only maniacs play this way, and with no read I"m not going to assume he's a maniac here.

Re: Villain open shove flops in 3bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sigh.

[/ QUOTE ]

gl man.

Re: Villain open shove flops in 3bet pot
 

re: MRBAA

i've seen this phenomenon with a lot of donks. they flop a medium strength hand (maybe Q2 or something), and immediately go all-in. i asked one of my friends about it and he shrugged and said he didn't know what else to do. clearly there are players who flop a really good hand and immediately think "don't want to get sucked out on PUSH", it's just the former type outnumbers the latter by far

Re: Villain open shove flops in 3bet pot
 

i think i fold this-but it is clearly close, it is however pretty much a snap call on a 27Q board

Re: Villain open shove flops in 3bet pot
 

call quickly and beat KQ.

Re: Villain open shove flops in 3bet pot
 

[ QUOTE ]
call quickly and beat KQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

wrong