5/10nl live skill level is to _______ online
 

Sorry if this question has been asked before but i wasnt able to find it. Im just wondering about the average skill level difference between an online nl game and a live one...

Re: 5/10nl live skill level is to _______ online
 

I think the skill level of a 5/10 live game varies a ton. I'm sure some of the games during busy Vegas weekends are equivalent to 25NL, while some NYC underground games can be fairly tough.

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while some NYC underground games can be fairly tough.

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uh...what

Re: 5/10nl live skill level is to _______ online
 

Isn't the general rule 10x the online buyin = the live buyin?

Re: 5/10nl live skill level is to _______ online
 

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Isn't the general rule 10x the online buyin = the live buyin?

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Probably for low/micro online limits (e.g. $25NL online = $1/2 NL live), but I'm highly skeptical that the trend continues all across the limits. For example, I would be willing to bet quite a bit of money that a winning $5/10 NL player online (that was breakeven or worse at $10/20 NL) would not be a consistent winner at a $50/100 NL live game...although, a $5/10 NL online player would probably be a winner at a $10/25 NL live game.

Reasons (which may or may not be valid):
1) The "fad" of online is largely over...people play online because they know something about poker (or want to get better). This is not necessarily true in B&Ms. Therefore, people at lower limits online $25NL, $50NL tend to have some knowledge about poker strategy.

2) New & casual players typically play the lowest limit that is available, affordable, and interesting to them. For B&Ms, the lowest NL game spread is generally $1/2. For online casinos, these same players would choose to play $10NL, $25NL or $50NL instead of $200NL. This supports the 10 to 1 ratio at the low limits.

3) Wealthy people (that are not super-rich) are much more likely to take shot at mid-NL full ring games ($5/5, $5/10, maybe $10/20) in B&Ms than to wire $5k through Western Union to PokerStars and sit down at a $10/20 6-max table. However, these people tend to play lower limit games unless they know something about poker. This statement supports a slightly lower ratio (maybe 5 to 1) between online & live at the medium limits.

4) These same wealthy people are probably unlikely to sit at a $25/50 NL or $50/100 NL game live because a) they probably derive less enjoyment from a really large game filled with pros vs. a medium sized game filled with a mixtures of pros, winning players & other so-so players and b) get more excitement playing black chip BJ than risk $5k on one hand of poker. I would say that most high-limit NL live games are filled with almost the same set of people that are willing to play high-limit NL online games. This statement supports a fairly low ratio (2 to 1 or less) for high NL games.

Personally, I think online players like to think that big live games are equivalent to paltry limits online so that they can brag that they are good enough to beat the big live games. Of course, then they tell their friends that they don't have the bankroll for the big live games...

Of course, I could be FOS.

Re: 5/10nl live skill level is to _______ online
 

Typical absurd 2p2 live play bashing. While there are very bad players live, and the overall skill level online might be slightly better, it's pretty ridiculous to suggest that 100NL games chock full of $49 buy in high school kids are tougher then 5/10 NL tables in AC, underground, etc. I understand people on 2p2 love to rip on the "absurd" things they see live - I, as well as anyone, could easily come up with a weeks worth of online HH's that will make you think someone blind was behind the keyboard.

Re: 5/10nl live skill level is to _______ online
 

In my experience, the play at 1/2 and 2/5nl live is comparable to a loose-passive .25/.5nl online game.

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Isn't the general rule 10x the online buyin = the live buyin?

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It's a decent rule of thumb.

In my experience, most exceptions involve either the smallest or largest "high limit" game in the room.

Re: 5/10nl live skill level is to _______ online
 

all you .5/1 Donks who wish to sit with me in a live 5/10 game please come to FW next weekend

100NL ...

Re: 5/10nl live skill level is to _______ online
 

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I think online players like to think that big live games are equivalent to paltry limits online so that they can brag that they are good enough to beat the big live games. Of course, then they tell their friends that they don't have the bankroll for the big live games...

Of course, I could be FOS.

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Having played high-limit live games and mid-limit online, my experience is that high-limit live games are *significantly* easier than mid-limit online games.

Some of the easiest games I've ever played in were the biggest games in the room, at the time.

That said, I've never played in the stratosphere. Biggest I've played live is 300/600 limit, and ~ 35/70 uncapped pot-limit (the blind amounts are odd due to currency conversion)

Re: 5/10nl live skill level is to _______ online
 

i have played a ton of each.

in terms of theoretical/math soundness of play, i'd say $5-$10 live is around $1-$2 online. but it depends on your game of reference.

in terms of exploiting live tells, online players lack that skillset but make up for it fairly well with much better reading of betting lines.

for same earn rate per hand the 10x buyin rule sounds okay, maybe a slight stretch. but strong live pros have far higher per-hand earn rates. 5ptbb/100 is not hard live. that's barely over $100 per 3 hours in $5-$10 full ring.



oops i misread the OP a little. in terms of average player skill (not pros) i feel the above is true. however in terms of average table skills it's probably between .50-1 and 1-2 because the mega-multitablers online tend to be far better than the one- and two-tablers.

Re: 5/10nl live skill level is to _______ online
 

You guys forget that it's significantly harder to stay focused and play at your best when you're live. Live games are always looser because of the boredom factor. Online, you can multitable, watch TV, instant message, whatever. No matter how tight you are, it's unlikely you're going extreme amounts of time without playing a hand. When you're live, people force themselves into hands simply to avoid sitting there doing nothing for 45 minute spans of time. Ergo, the loose/poorly played aspect pops up.

Re: 5/10nl live skill level is to _______ online
 

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Of course, I could be FOS.

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No, I think you've more or less got it.

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You guys forget that it's significantly harder to stay focused and play at your best when you're live.

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Don't think that's forgotten - they were discussing the fact that it's looser live, not why. A good player is going to slip less in that deparment than someone who went there to gamble to begin with.

There are many reasons live player is looser/weaker, but it IS looser/weaker and the question was how much exactly?

I'm basically a limit player, and have not played higher than $2/5 NL. So it's hard for me to know from experience how the NL games are $5/10 and above. For NL, $1/2 $200 live is about like $10 or $25 online.

For limit, the tightness of online play can be shocking sometimes. I remember working my way up on PokerStars, and when I got to .50/$1, the play got unbelievably tight. By "unbelievably", I mean VP$IP of < 20. Now I could shop around for good games too. There used to be $5/10 and $10/20 games on Pacific that were real soft. And I even was finding a soft game of $30/60 on UB on occasion.

But to counter that, there are some serious $1/2, $2/4 and $3/6 multitablers. Or were - I'm seeing less FR limit play now. Too many of those guys just kill the games.

So it really depends. I've seen plenty of live $15/30 games at the Bellagio which were easier than many online .50/$1 or $1/2 games, so there you're looking at a factor of 15x or 30x. I've never seen a tough $3/6 or $4/8 live game, and that's mostly the difference. Some of those games are easy online, but they're more scarce in general. They're always easy and abundant in live play. $8/16 is just a cakewalk for me - practically mindless free money.

Hopefully I'll feel that way about $5/10 NL live someday :-)

Re: 5/10nl live skill level is to _______ online
 

Tell me where to find a 5/10 NL game live that is as easy as a 100 NL game online and ill be there in a heartbeat. Im sorry but no such game exists. 5/10 NL live is a lot harder than you guys think. And this comes from someone who was once a predominately internet player.

1/2 NL = .10/.25 - .25/.50 online
2/5 NL = .25/.50 - 1/2 online
5/10 NL = 1/2 - 2/4 online
10/20 - 10/25 NL = 3/6 - 5/10 online
20/40 NL = 5/10 - 10/20 online.

Re: 5/10nl live skill level is to _______ online
 

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Tell me where to find a 5/10 NL game live that is as easy as a 100 NL game online and ill be there in a heartbeat. Im sorry but no such game exists. 5/10 NL live is a lot harder than you guys think. And this comes from someone who was once a predominately internet player.

1/2 NL = .10/.25 - .25/.50 online
2/5 NL = .25/.50 - 1/2 online
5/10 NL = 1/2 - 2/4 online
10/20 - 10/25 NL = 3/6 - 5/10 online
20/40 NL = 5/10 - 10/20 online.

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100% agree.

People are getting better these days. Also the part about staying focused is harder is also true. When I play now you rarely find people who have no clue on what to do.

Re: 5/10nl live skill level is to _______ online
 

I actually find it hard to focus online.

The highest I was able to multitable and beat online was $2-4 limit holdem.

I regularly play and beat $15-30 and $20-40 LHE live. My live play is entirely in Los Angeles and Las Vegas. The live games at those levels are TONS easier than $3-6 LHE online. The games lower than 10-20 live are ridiculously easy and typically feature 5-8 players to every flop, raise or no raise.

Re: 5/10nl live skill level is to _______ online
 

i guess i should have been a bit more specific in the OP...

Im referring to mainly casino games. Ive only played at atlantic city. Mostly 2/5 but some 1/2 as well. fwiw i felt a solid winner at 100nl online would absolutely rip the 2/5 game to shreds...it was somewhat comical. Ive probably only sat at ten different tables of it though, so maybe i was just lucky with where i was sitting.

I just wasnt sure if there was a huge jump from 2/5nl to 5/10nl in the casino, or if the trend continued for the most part

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I just wasnt sure if there was a huge jump from 2/5nl to 5/10nl in the casino, or if the trend continued for the most part

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IME, yes it is a big jump, especially if the 5/10 game is uncapped.

Re: 5/10nl live skill level is to _______ online
 

does anyone know how tough live 10/20nl is? specifically, at foxwoods cuzz i might go there sometime soon...

Re: 5/10nl live skill level is to _______ online
 

Though I voted for NL$200, my guess is somewhere between $100 and $200 depending on the time of day and the city you're playing in. They're not exactly equivalent because B&M requires some familiarity with speed of play, handling chips, action, reading live tells, etc.

Re: 5/10nl live skill level is to _______ online
 

Seriously all you online muppets have no clue about live poker its ridiculous.

Ten times harder, are you on crack?

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I have been winning at live $5/10 for 2 years now. I have never been able to consistently beat $200 NL online, I did ok on Party Poker but in the last year not so much. That being said I would love to see some of the $200 NL players from Stars come sit in the $5/10 rotation game I jusy came home from, I think that most of them would be in for a rude awakening, I said most because there are plenty of players who have no problem making the transition from online to live and vice versa. For me, it really is a different game and I have accepted that I don't have the discipline to play succesfully online, it's more for entertainment than profit. I'm only speaking for myself I'm sure other players would strobgly disagree.

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Seriously all you online muppets have no clue about live poker its ridiculous.

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Thank you for your excellent contribution to the knowledge pool, stranger.

Re: 5/10nl live skill level is to _______ online
 

where are all of the 200NL players crushing the live 10-20 games? does this mean that an internet 5-10 player would crush 50-100 NL live. all of us fish at the casino would love to play with you all when you become 21. i think you vastly underestimate the skills of live players and the effect that deep stack poker has (compared to 100-200 BB online).

Re: 5/10nl live skill level is to _______ online
 

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where are all of the 200NL players crushing the live 10-20 games? does this mean that an internet 5-10 player would crush 50-100 NL live. all of us fish at the casino would love to play with you all when you become 21. i think you vastly underestimate the skills of live players and the effect that deep stack poker has (compared to 100-200 BB online).

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say word.

Re: 5/10nl live skill level is to _______ online
 

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where are all of the 200NL players crushing the live 10-20 games? does this mean that an internet 5-10 player would crush 50-100 NL live. all of us fish at the casino would love to play with you all when you become 21. i think you vastly underestimate the skills of live players and the effect that deep stack poker has (compared to 100-200 BB online).

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QFT, Excellent.

Re: 5/10nl live skill level is to _______ online
 

Here's the thing: online poker isn't real poker. It's like miniature golf compared to real golf: it has skills, but not the full range of skills. Which means all these guys talking about how good they are at mini-golf, when they have to play the whole game, get spanked. They especially embarrass themselves when they say they've played more hands of poker/rounds of golf than Doyle Brunson/Tiger Woods.

People play looser live because games are slower, because they aren't 10-tabling, so waiting for good cards is harder, sure, but also because everyone else is playing looser in real games, so playing loose yourself makes more sense, and, most importantly, because you have the ability to read your opponents. I know many online players suffer the delusion that they can read their opponents (some roulette players think they can tell which numbers are coming up), but what you can do online pales in comparison to the real thing.

Online poker is for anti-social or socially graceless stay-at-home geeks for whom a hand job from an average looking girl is a life-highlight. These are guys who think everyone smells bad and dresses poorly and is boring and weird (and all the other comments online players make about why they don't want to be around other humans). Don't be one of them. The map is not the territory; porn isn't sex; your monitor is not the world.

Re: 5/10nl live skill level is to _______ online
 

well i could be wrong but im just guessing that most of the winning 200nl players probably dont have the bankroll to play 5/10nl live. especially b/c a lot of the time the game plays much deeper than 100bb so they might not feel that they are comfortably rolled for the swings.

Re: 5/10nl live skill level is to _______ online
 

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Here's the thing: online poker isn't real poker. It's like miniature golf compared to real golf: it has skills, but not the full range of skills. Which means all these guys talking about how good they are at mini-golf, when they have to play the whole game, get spanked. They especially embarrass themselves when they say they've played more hands of poker/rounds of golf than Doyle Brunson/Tiger Woods.

People play looser live because games are slower, because they aren't 10-tabling, so waiting for good cards is harder, sure, but also because everyone else is playing looser in real games, so playing loose yourself makes more sense, and, most importantly, because you have the ability to read your opponents. I know many online players suffer the delusion that they can read their opponents (some roulette players think they can tell which numbers are coming up), but what you can do online pales in comparison to the real thing.

Online poker is for anti-social or socially graceless stay-at-home geeks for whom a hand job from an average looking girl is a life-highlight. These are guys who think everyone smells bad and dresses poorly and is boring and weird (and all the other comments online players make about why they don't want to be around other humans). Don't be one of them. The map is not the territory; porn isn't sex; your monitor is not the world.

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god you're a [censored] moron.

just kill yourself right now. I don't care how you do it.

Re: 5/10nl live skill level is to _______ online
 

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Here's the thing: online poker isn't real poker. It's like miniature golf compared to real golf: it has skills, but not the full range of skills. Which means all these guys talking about how good they are at mini-golf, when they have to play the whole game, get spanked. They especially embarrass themselves when they say they've played more hands of poker/rounds of golf than Doyle Brunson/Tiger Woods.

People play looser live because games are slower, because they aren't 10-tabling, so waiting for good cards is harder, sure, but also because everyone else is playing looser in real games, so playing loose yourself makes more sense, and, most importantly, because you have the ability to read your opponents. I know many online players suffer the delusion that they can read their opponents (some roulette players think they can tell which numbers are coming up), but what you can do online pales in comparison to the real thing.

Online poker is for anti-social or socially graceless stay-at-home geeks for whom a hand job from an average looking girl is a life-highlight. These are guys who think everyone smells bad and dresses poorly and is boring and weird (and all the other comments online players make about why they don't want to be around other humans). Don't be one of them. The map is not the territory; porn isn't sex; your monitor is not the world.

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god you're a [censored] moron.

just kill yourself right now. I don't care how you do it.

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yeah this is right actually. i think a lot of the better pros prefer to play online because its more convenient and they can achieve a much higher hourly rate which means they dont have put in quite as many hours at the table which means their overall quality of life can be much higher.

not sure though... [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: 5/10nl live skill level is to _______ online
 

this thread really wasnt intended to make fun of live poker at all. It was just an honest question...everyone knows the quality of play is much higher online, i was just looking for some input on exactly how great this difference is

Re: 5/10nl live skill level is to _______ online
 

I know at least 1/2 dozen winning MSNLers who beat 2/4 thru 10/20NL online at over 4ptb/100 that can't beat 5/10NL live or 10/20NL live for that matter so...

everyone's one sided rigid worldview that X stakes online = Y stakes live needs to realize its not that simple.

I personally think that 5/10NL falls somewhere around 2/4NL online. Depending on table dynamics, tilting, stacks the play could be as weak as 1/2NL online or as good as 3/6NL online.

I would say however that live players are not nearly as tricky (floats, squeezes, etc...) as online players and while some might be laggy pre-flop and on the flop, they also seem to play in a fashion where hand reading is very simple in nature when it comes to later streets.

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this thread really wasnt intended to make fun of live poker at all. It was just an honest question...everyone knows the quality of play is much higher online, i was just looking for some input on exactly how great this difference is

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Interesting exchange between a couple of pro's in the 5/10 game at the Wynn this weekend.

Older pro (even though he says he only plays 'for fun'): I stopped playing online.

Young pro: Why?

Older Pro: Because they are too good at this level and above.

Younger Pro (and others chime in too): Got to agree with you there.

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I know at least 1/2 dozen winning MSNLers who beat 2/4 thru 10/20NL online at over 4ptb/100 that can't beat 5/10NL live or 10/20NL live for that matter so...

everyone's one sided rigid worldview that X stakes online = Y stakes live needs to realize its not that simple.

I personally think that 5/10NL falls somewhere around 2/4NL online. Depending on table dynamics, tilting, stacks the play could be as weak as 1/2NL online or as good as 3/6NL online.

I would say however that live players are not nearly as tricky (floats, squeezes, etc...) as online players and while some might be laggy pre-flop and on the flop, they also seem to play in a fashion where hand reading is very simple in nature when it comes to later streets.

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wow thats pretty amazing. unless these guys just have no patience for live play at all or if they seriously give off the biggest tells ever im not sure why this would be. perhaps its a sample size issue? but you could very well be right. maybe theres some difference between the two that complicates the question much more than most ppl give it credit for. but if someones beating 2/4-5/10nl online for 4ptbb/100 i doubt they seriously care about not having good results in live play because theyre probably earning a higher hourly rate than can be achieved even at 10/25nl live. or dare i say even 25/50 (too lazy to do the math)

Re: 5/10nl live skill level is to _______ online
 

Since Live play is significantly different than online I would not be surprised if even some very good online players had initial trouble. Having 5 or 6 people all call a 6BB raise PF is unheard of at the higher stakes online, so if they did not adjust to how to best exploit such tendencies and to avoid the pitfalls these situations create I can see how they would have problems.


That being said it should be easy enough to adjust to and exploit so long as the player has patience. Oh and your 5/10NL game is going to vary wildly based upon where you play and when you play. Comparing 5/10NL at 2 p.m. on a Tuesday to 5/10NL at 2 a.m. Saturday morning is like comparing strawberries and lemons. Both my be fruits but one is sweet and yummy and the other is bitter and sucky.

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Have to agree with the guy who said that online poker is for the anti-social. In all honesty, I doubt many of the multitabling nits on this site who makes livings on Stars would have an idea what to do with an attractive girl if she came with an instruction manual. I wouldn't reduce my life to sitting in my house 50 hours a week clicking a mouse, regardless of the money involved. Man has a point. I do however disagree with him about it being "real" poker. It's very real and does in fact have skilled players.

To those using the 10x rule, don't be idiots. If this were even remotely true, more of you online players would get up from the $11/hour gigs you have at the Party 1/2 NL tables and try out crushing a live 5/10 game as you claim is so easy to do.

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Just noticed the above, where Mandor mentions the aspect of 5-6 players in raised pots preflop in live play, which never happens online. I've seen primarily online players attempt to react to this, and it's like watching a horror movie. You Stars 19/13's realize that leading into five people live with black AA and a board of 7h-6h-5c is like standing in the middle of the highway, right?

Re: 5/10nl live skill level is to _______ online
 

this question depends purely on where u play and at what time, there are plenty of live casinos globally where the higher no limit games are of an equal standard to the equivalent stake games online.
Having said that i do believe that people generally do put money in in live games in weaker spots, due a number of factors, number one imo being the fact that live is so slow so the temptation to play that K9 suited in early position, after 2 hours of looking down at 3 8 offsuit, is very real. Online multitabling the patience factor is almost erased, by the sheer volume of hands we can play.
Im pretty sure however that an online pro winning at say a 5 10 no limit 6 max game, would undoubtedly need months of practice in live full ring games before he became a big winner. As the skills required from live to multi tabling online are extremely different.

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A bad game of 5/10 at the Bellagio is approximately similar to a juicy 2/4 game on Stars.

When you start dealing with uncapped games then comparisons become a lot trickier... even the capped games don't correlate directly because the live games often have a much wider difference between the best and worst players at the table. Live players are much more likely to be limited by bankroll or game availability (this depends on where you're playing, obviously) than online players which means you sometimes get good players playing in a game they can really crush, whereas online those players can just move up. Also, for various reasons you don't get many completely clueless people playing online at reasonable stakes and when those guys do show up, they go broke real fast. In a casino it's a lot easier for someone with minimal experience to buy in at a midstakes game and it might take them all day to go through a couple buy-ins.

Quite honestly, the level of play live is simply appalling. I've played full sessions of 5/10 where it was never once folded around to the blinds, etc.