How good are pitchers compared to the average Joe
 

at hitting?

I was thinking about how there will be the excellent spectacle of AL pitchers taking a couple at bats a game.

Firstly, how much better are the NL pitchers than the AL pitchers at batting? It's difficult to say based on the absolutely tiny sample sizes I would think.

The main question I have is how good is the average NL pitcher at hitting compared with an average guy that say plays rec baseball or softball? What about the best high school hitters? Average college hitter? Would they bat 9th in most single A minor-league teams or perhaps a bit higher?

The reason I ask this is that the average for pitchers seems to be about .100 or one hit in 10 AB. I find this to be impressively high. I think the average guy would be lucky to get a few hits in 1000 at bats. People who have played a lof of rec baseball would do better, but would do well to get a couple hits out of 100 at bats.

Re: How good are pitchers compared to the average Joe
 

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I think the average guy would be lucky to get a few hits in 1000 at bats.

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You underestimate just how much luck there is on balls in play.

Obviously you're also partially claiming the Average Joe (c) won't get many balls in play, but I could swing blindfolded for a thousand times and get a couple of hits...

Re: How good are pitchers compared to the average Joe
 

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I think the average guy would be lucky to get a few hits in 1000 at bats.

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You underestimate just how much luck there is on balls in play.

Obviously you're also partially claiming the Average Joe (c) won't get many balls in play, but I could swing blindfolded for a thousand times and get a couple of hits...

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Depends on the pitcher obviously, but I would think that even the guys that get few strikeouts would get a ton against you or me.

I see your point though as there will be some number of bloop singles and ground balls hitting holes where you just try to make contact and get lucky.

Re: How good are pitchers compared to the average Joe
 

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I think the average guy would be lucky to get a few hits in 1000 at bats.

[/ QUOTE ]

You underestimate just how much luck there is on balls in play.

Obviously you're also partially claiming the Average Joe (c) won't get many balls in play, but I could swing blindfolded for a thousand times and get a couple of hits...

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No you couldn't, AINEC.

Re: How good are pitchers compared to the average Joe
 

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I think the average guy would be lucky to get a few hits in 1000 at bats.

[/ QUOTE ]

You underestimate just how much luck there is on balls in play.

Obviously you're also partially claiming the Average Joe (c) won't get many balls in play, but I could swing blindfolded for a thousand times and get a couple of hits...

[/ QUOTE ]

The average joe, let's a 25-year old average joe, would include many who would hit a single ball cleanly into the playing field. Any pitch faster than 65mph would be faster than many could swing the bat.

Re: How good are pitchers compared to the average Joe
 

pitcher BA is higher than .100 too. Closer to .200, my guesstimate would be .185. The thing to remember about AL pitchers is that (depending on MiLB league) this may be the first time they have not gone to the plate every time they take the mound. Also, in HS and sometimes college these star pitchers are all-around star players who will play another position when not pitching. These pitchers may have been the best batters on their teams as well. It is the MiLB and MLB system that has let their skills atrophy in combination with their lack of experience facing big league pitching (70-90 AB per yer for starting NL pitchers). However they are still gifted athletes with good hand-eye coordination.

Comparing them to the average joe, you will find that MLB pitchers have better hand-eye, more strength, more bat-swinging experience, and more experience facing big league pitching. Honestly, if I (played baseball up until 9th grade, but enjoy raquetball once a week) were given 100 ABs vs. Doug Davis I'd consider myself lucky to get 3 hits. Even an unimpressive hurler like Davis would be throwing curveballs the likes of which I've never seen with velocity that is equally new to me. My expectation would be 0-1 hits in 100 AB. Given 1000 ABs to adapt, that number starts to rise.

Re: How good are pitchers compared to the average Joe
 

They should make a TV show featuring Average Joes competing against pros.

Average Joe being run over by Kordell Stewart

On second thought, that would be a terrible show.

Re: How good are pitchers compared to the average Joe
 

CardSharp I think you're mistaken. Most pitchers at the collegiate level that have a real opportunity to go pro would NOT be playing any other position and would rarely hit unless they were freakishly good. The risk for injury is too high.

Re: How good are pitchers compared to the average Joe
 

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CardSharp I think you're mistaken. Most pitchers at the collegiate level that have a real opportunity to go pro would NOT be playing any other position and would rarely hit unless they were freakishly good. The risk for injury is too high.

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He said in HS and SOMETIMES college.

And he is 100% correct that nearly every big league pitcher was an all-around HS star.

Re: How good are pitchers compared to the average Joe
 

JaredL,

-Most big league pitchers were once hitters at one point in their career. What makes them "fail" is that they lose the skill movements necessary to get to the ball b/c they aren't doing it everyday anymore--they are throwing everyday instead. NL pitchers hardly hit, they mostly bunt...the difference between AL pitchers and NL pitchers is only that NL pitchers are seeing live pitching more often, that is all.

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The main question I have is how good is the average NL pitcher at hitting compared with an average guy that say plays rec baseball or softball? What about the best high school hitters? Average college hitter? Would they bat 9th in most single A minor-league teams or perhaps a bit higher?

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First, they aren't even close to a Class A minor league hitter. Crazy to even think so. Think of it this way, the middle order HS hitters are generally who play college ball, the middle order college players are generally who is drafted. So in the minor leagues everyone can hit--from there these things have to happen 1) no injuries 2) sharpen skills some 3) money invested in the player and 4) luck.

For the rest of the comparisons it is hard b/c I guess it is all how you define "average college hitter." Since a ton of big league pitchers were excellent athletes/hitters at some point and they are seeing big league pitching each outing then I am no doubt going w/ the big league pitchers over "average" college hitters--not good or great college hitters and absolutely over HS and rec ball guys.

Also, most people don't realize how hard it is to hit an 80 mph fastball. Now turn that up to 95, change the angle to downward (big league pitchers throw at a tough downward angle), add exceptional off speed pitches and the avg Joe doesn't TOUCH a ball in 1000 swings so you can throw luck out of the equation.

Re: How good are pitchers compared to the average Joe
 

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They should make a TV show featuring Average Joes competing against pros.

Average Joe being run over by Kordell Stewart

On second thought, that would be a terrible show.

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lol that is hysterical. esp. because it's kordell stewart!

Re: How good are pitchers compared to the average Joe
 

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CardSharp I think you're mistaken. Most pitchers at the collegiate level that have a real opportunity to go pro would NOT be playing any other position and would rarely hit unless they were freakishly good. The risk for injury is too high.

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This is wrong. And second of all college coaches couldn't careless about "risk of injury" whatever that means. And lastly, there isn't a higher risk of injury--the reason it isn't done "always" is b/c to be able to hit or pitch each individual skill takes hours and hours of practice to perfect every day and it is actually really hard to be a two-way player b/c usually one skill suffers and sometimes both suffer a little. Coaches would rather a player concentrate wholly on one skill.

With that said, most pitchers in the big leagues are extremely athletic w/ exceptional hand eye coordination etc. Even guys that don't look like it will surprise you, I have seen some big league pitchers on a basketball court (weren't supposed to be) that looked like they could have played in the frickin' D league and they were overweight and old...they could also hit. Pitching is an athletic movement is what you need to remember, you also need to understand that pitching and hitting correlate w/ each other mechanically so it is also believable that one can do both well b/c all the key positions a hitter HAS to get in to hit a pitcher HAS to get in to pitch.

Re: How good are pitchers compared to the average Joe
 

Most major league pitchers are very good hitters compared to the average "athletic" person their age. MLB pitchers are amazing at pitching and batting .150 against them is quite an accomplishment, in the grand scheme of things.

Re: How good are pitchers compared to the average Joe
 

Actually, most major league pitchers, AL or NL, are much better hitters than the average Joe. They were all superior athletes who may well have been the best hitter in the history of their town, but since they don't focus on hitting any more, and haven't practiced it since High School(the only place the pitcher hits above the HS level is the NL), they just appear weak. Every NL farm team uses the DH.

Its not that these guys don't have the ability, it's just not honed to the MLB level.

And as for AL pitchers in the NL park in the WS. Josh Beckett can flat out hit.

Re: How good are pitchers compared to the average Joe
 

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Firstly, how much better are the NL pitchers than the AL pitchers at batting? Not too much better. But the NL pitchers are better at bunting as they get so much practice.

The main question I have is how good is the average NL pitcher at hitting compared with an average guy that say plays rec baseball or softball? What about the best high school hitters? Average college hitter? Would they bat 9th in most single A minor-league teams or perhaps a bit higher?

You're asking too many questions here but suffice it to say they are a lot better than you could ever know. Keep in mind, many of these guys were great hitters at the college level.

The reason I ask this is that the average for pitchers seems to be about .100 or one hit in 10 AB. I find this to be impressively high. It is actually .131 I believe. I think the average guy would be lucky to get a few hits in 1000 at bats. Ehhh, they'd get more than that. People who have played a lof of rec baseball would do better, but would do well to get a couple hits out of 100 at bats.

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I agree with the last statement. I played adult baseball and hit pretty well but I estimate I'd get between 3-7 hits per 100 versus an assortment of Professional-level pitching. And that is if I can use a metal bat. Otherwise probably more like 2 hits as they'd hammer me inside with fastballs and bust my bat to shreds.

Your best bet would obviously be to sit on a pitch, but pro pitchers and catchers can spot the "tells" and sniff that from a mile away and they'll exploit you and any minor weakness you have all the live-long day.

Re: How good are pitchers compared to the average Joe
 

Historical question, other than the obvious one, how many good MLB pitchers were good enough hitters to become everyday players?

Re: How good are pitchers compared to the average Joe
 

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CardSharp I think you're mistaken. Most pitchers at the collegiate level that have a real opportunity to go pro would NOT be playing any other position and would rarely hit unless they were freakishly good. The risk for injury is too high.

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This is wrong. And second of all college coaches couldn't careless about "risk of injury" whatever that means. And lastly, there isn't a higher risk of injury--the reason it isn't done "always" is b/c to be able to hit or pitch each individual skill takes hours and hours of practice to perfect every day and it is actually really hard to be a two-way player b/c usually one skill suffers and sometimes both suffer a little. Coaches would rather a player concentrate wholly on one skill.

With that said, most pitchers in the big leagues are extremely athletic w/ exceptional hand eye coordination etc. Even guys that don't look like it will surprise you, I have seen some big league pitchers on a basketball court (weren't supposed to be) that looked like they could have played in the frickin' D league and they were overweight and old...they could also hit. Pitching is an athletic movement is what you need to remember, you also need to understand that pitching and hitting correlate w/ each other mechanically so it is also believable that one can do both well b/c all the key positions a hitter HAS to get in to hit a pitcher HAS to get in to pitch.

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darko, did you ever play college baseball? College coaches DO worry about injuring a stud pitcher. It's ridiculous that you're even arguing that they don't. A pitcher playing the field puts more strain on the arm, and there is ALWAYS a chance for a fluke injury.

Given your second statement I think its highly unlikely that you ever played on a baseball field past the H.S. level. Pitchers go in a cycle based on when they are expected to pitch against live hitting, whether that be in an actual game or simply a simulated game with teammates. Sure on the 1 day out of 5 you are pitching in a game you will not have a chance to hone your skills at the plate. The other 4 days there is PLENTY of time to work on your hitting if one was so inclined. I'll go in to more detail if you really don't believe me, but anybody who has played at that level should realize that there is PLENTY of time for a pitcher to work on his hitting.

I agree with the majority of your second paragraph. Most pitchers are very good athletes and have great muscle memory.

Re: How good are pitchers compared to the average Joe
 

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[ QUOTE ]
CardSharp I think you're mistaken. Most pitchers at the collegiate level that have a real opportunity to go pro would NOT be playing any other position and would rarely hit unless they were freakishly good. The risk for injury is too high.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is wrong. And second of all college coaches couldn't careless about "risk of injury" whatever that means. And lastly, there isn't a higher risk of injury--the reason it isn't done "always" is b/c to be able to hit or pitch each individual skill takes hours and hours of practice to perfect every day and it is actually really hard to be a two-way player b/c usually one skill suffers and sometimes both suffer a little. Coaches would rather a player concentrate wholly on one skill.

With that said, most pitchers in the big leagues are extremely athletic w/ exceptional hand eye coordination etc. Even guys that don't look like it will surprise you, I have seen some big league pitchers on a basketball court (weren't supposed to be) that looked like they could have played in the frickin' D league and they were overweight and old...they could also hit. Pitching is an athletic movement is what you need to remember, you also need to understand that pitching and hitting correlate w/ each other mechanically so it is also believable that one can do both well b/c all the key positions a hitter HAS to get in to hit a pitcher HAS to get in to pitch.

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darko, did you ever play college baseball? College coaches DO worry about injuring a stud pitcher. It's ridiculous that you're even arguing that they don't. A pitcher playing the field puts more strain on the arm, and there is ALWAYS a chance for a fluke injury.

Given your second statement I think its highly unlikely that you ever played on a baseball field past the H.S. level. Pitchers go in a cycle based on when they are expected to pitch against live hitting, whether that be in an actual game or simply a simulated game with teammates. Sure on the 1 day out of 5 you are pitching in a game you will not have a chance to hone your skills at the plate. The other 4 days there is PLENTY of time to work on your hitting if one was so inclined. I'll go in to more detail if you really don't believe me, but anybody who has played at that level should realize that there is PLENTY of time for a pitcher to work on his hitting.

I agree with the majority of your second paragraph. Most pitchers are very good athletes and have great muscle memory.

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I can't wait for the reply to this!! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: How good are pitchers compared to the average Joe
 

Neither can I [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: How good are pitchers compared to the average Joe
 

I'm reminded of a post on another forum. A guy was recommending audio monitors for editing video. Another guy (Doug) posted that no pro ever used the monitors the guy suggested. OP blasted Doug, saying he can't possibly be a pro because his opinion is so wrong. After a few "I can't wait to see the response" posts, Doug merely posted a link to his site, listing the Emmys he won for sound editing and all the titles he has edited.

Re: How good are pitchers compared to the average Joe
 

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Given your second statement I think its highly unlikely that you ever played on a baseball field past the H.S. level.

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Ha ha. This is funny.
Also...LOL at the idea that pitchers are going to spend so much time during their 4 off-days between starts working on their hitting.
WTF?

Re: How good are pitchers compared to the average Joe
 

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darko, did you ever play college baseball? College coaches DO worry about injuring a stud pitcher. It's ridiculous that you're even arguing that they don't. A pitcher playing the field puts more strain on the arm, and there is ALWAYS a chance for a fluke injury.

Given your second statement I think its highly unlikely that you ever played on a baseball field past the H.S. level. Pitchers go in a cycle based on when they are expected to pitch against live hitting, whether that be in an actual game or simply a simulated game with teammates. Sure on the 1 day out of 5 you are pitching in a game you will not have a chance to hone your skills at the plate. The other 4 days there is PLENTY of time to work on your hitting if one was so inclined. I'll go in to more detail if you really don't believe me, but anybody who has played at that level should realize that there is PLENTY of time for a pitcher to work on his hitting.

I agree with the majority of your second paragraph. Most pitchers are very good athletes and have great muscle memory.

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This is good stuff. No need to even respond.

Re: How good are pitchers compared to the average Joe
 

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Every NL farm team uses the DH.


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This isn't 100% correct.
The last I knew, when AA or AAA NL farm-clubs played each other they would not use the DH. So these pitchers did actually get some real live-work at the plate.

And a lot of the AL big-league pitchers played for an NL MLB or AA or AAA team sometime in their careers.

I REALLY REALLY REALLY think a LOT of people don't understand how much more amazing a top fast-ball or curve-ball looks when seen live and up-close.
Seeing it on TV always makes it look far easier to hit than it really is.

Re: How good are pitchers compared to the average Joe
 

Bob is correct, AAA pitchers hit.

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I REALLY REALLY REALLY think a LOT of people don't understand how much more amazing a top fast-ball or curve-ball looks when seen live and up-close.

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This statement is so true. The angle and the late life to the fastball is so much different and the off-speed pitches are breaking late and breaking while in the zone; short, quick, late break...so tough on hitters. An average Joe would be dominated.

Re: How good are pitchers compared to the average Joe
 

Spence,

In case you don't quite get why everyone is laughing at you: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...ue#Post11007558

Re: How good are pitchers compared to the average Joe
 

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Given your second statement I think its highly unlikely that you ever played on a baseball field past the H.S. level.

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Ha ha. This is funny.
Also...LOL at the idea that pitchers are going to spend so much time during their 4 off-days between starts working on their hitting.
WTF?

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nevermind .... tdarko, what league is it and who is the affiliate for your team?

Re: How good are pitchers compared to the average Joe
 

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nevermind .... tdarko, what league is it and who is the affiliate for your team?

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If I remember, the video shows the goon from the AC Surf attacking TDarko of the New Haven Cutters. This is the CANAM League which is an Independent League not affiliated with the majors.

Re: How good are pitchers compared to the average Joe
 

Not sure tdarko wants me stepping in here but it says so directly on the video itself so I don't think it's a huge secret.

The anchor says it's the Can-Am League. He is also talking about the A.C. Surf which is the Atlantic City Surf but I think that's the team TDarko is playing against in that video.

It is an independent league meaning that none of the players or teams are affiliated with anyone in major-league baseball.

I did radio in that league for one season in 2002 for a now defunct team.
Probably roughly AA-caliber baseball of a lot of guys who are mostly too old to be considered valuable prospects in a big-league organization anymore.

Re: How good are pitchers compared to the average Joe
 

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darko, did you ever play college baseball?

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hahahahahhaha

Re: How good are pitchers compared to the average Joe
 

Wow, thanks for linking to that thread. tdarko you are definitively awesome. Not only for the great trip report and video, but also for the spectacular display of honor, class, and humility throughout the rest of your posts in that thread. Mad kudos.

Re: How good are pitchers compared to the average Joe
 

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darko, did you ever play college baseball?

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hahahahahhaha

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Come on kyle. Only people with experience pitching allowed in this thread.

Re: How good are pitchers compared to the average Joe
 

holy smokes tdarko. nice double leg.

Re: How good are pitchers compared to the average Joe
 

I also am glad that thread was linked as I had missed it the first time around.

Re: How good are pitchers compared to the average Joe
 

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I also am glad that thread was linked as I had missed it the first time around.

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I had seen it about a month ago when it was linked again, but yea that take-down was complete ownage. Very nice work, when I first saw it I began to wonder if you had a background in wrestling or anything cause it looked very effective

Re: How good are pitchers compared to the average Joe
 

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darko, did you ever play college baseball?

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hahahahahhaha

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I love how that post was juicy enough to get you to de-lurk.

One of my favorite things is NL pitchers who are good enough for the occasional pinch-hit. I remember Orel Hersheiser had a pretty decent bat, as did (does) Tom Glavine. It's a rarity but it's pretty cool when you see something like Glavine in as a PH late in a big playoff game.

Re: How good are pitchers compared to the average Joe
 

I'm probably a better hitter than most "average Joes" and the majority of athletic people and can confidently say I would bat at least .005 in the Major Leagues.

Re: How good are pitchers compared to the average Joe
 

Average "good" pitcher in a recreational baseball league (or at least, in mine) throws maybe 70-80 mph fastballs that don't move at all, and either slow looping breaking balls you can see coming a mile away, or else sharp breaking pitches that move maybe 6 inches to a foot.

The best hitters in the league hit maybe .450 against this.

Put them up against 90+ mph fastballs that have 6 inches to a foot of movement, and 80 mph curveballs that have as much movement as those slow loopers, only they break late, and it's going to be such a ridiculously different experience that they won't hit .100. And those are the league all-stars, not the "average" players.

The best pitcher I've seen in my league was an ex-AA pitcher who was now throwing maybe 85 with a pretty nasty slider. Opponents hit .130 off him. The difference between him and a major leaguer is still insane. "Average Athletic Joe" vs. MLB Pitcher = domination, and I'd say probably around a .020 average, with the best amateurs getting just enough hits to make up a little for the large portion of people who literally wouldn't make contact ever. Like me.

Re: How good are pitchers compared to the average Joe
 

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I'm probably a better hitter than most "average Joes" and the majority of athletic people and can confidently say I would bat at least .005 in the Major Leagues.

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I think if I quit my job and worked out everyday with the intention of making the show, I could probably hit .050/.070/.065 in three years.

Re: How good are pitchers compared to the average Joe
 

lippy and kyleb are doing a good job of capturing the ridiculousness of an 'average joe' trying to hit big-league pitching.

Re: How good are pitchers compared to the average Joe
 

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I think if I quit my job and worked out everyday with the intention of making the show, I could probably hit .050/.070/.065 in three years.

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I'll slot you in to hit 6th.