Razz trny advice, please
 

There were 136 people in this trny and the first hour I was so card dead I only played 4 hands out of 46 hands, folded on one 4th, won the other three only because the other guy was a complete idiot.

So, I manage to stay in, get into the money, 14 players are left when I lose half my stack in one of those rotten suck out hands, and am the short stack - get back up a little so I'm 13th in a 14 person trny and this happens.

I am only posting this to have you all confirm I am the dumbest, nittiest, most idiotic tournament player you've ever seen for folding 3rd. I shoulda raised. Right? This is one of those "What the heck was I thinking?!" hands.


Tournament - Razz - Level XV (2,000/4,000), Ante 400, Bring-In 600 (converter)

Seat 1: 37,605
Seat 2: 26,109
Seat 3: 29,204
Seat 4: 22,490
Seat 6: 37,599
Hero: 13,765
Seat 8: 33,913

3rd Street - (1.40 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Hero: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___raises

Total pot: (1.70 SB)

Re: Razz trny advice, please
 

Uh, what? There are 3 low cards yet to act, why would youu want to bet here? If there was 1 I raise every time, 2, I'd raise quite often a cash game, 3, almost never in either situation.

Re: Razz trny advice, please
 

[ QUOTE ]
Uh, what? There are 3 low cards yet to act, why would youu want to bet here? If there was 1 I raise every time, 2, I'd raise quite often a cash game, 3, almost never in either situation.

[/ QUOTE ] Go up and look at the stack sizes vs the limits and antes. That's why.

Re: Razz trny advice, please
 

You have like 30 antes. As soon as you get involved in a hand you have 3bb. I'd wait for better position if not a better hand.

Re: Razz trny advice, please
 

It's hardly time to panic. There are too many good low cards behind you to consider playing this dog.

Re: Razz trny advice, please
 

Wait for a better position and better hand.

Re: Razz trny advice, please
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's hardly time to panic. There are too many good low cards behind you to consider playing this dog.

[/ QUOTE ] Well, I guess if everyone agrees, I am wrong. My end game in trnys is really in need of work, tho.' I am constantly getting deep or making a final table and then it seems to come apart. Or maybe my expectations are unrealistic.

So, out of a hundred tournaments, how often do you expect to win if you are playing at the same level of competence as your competition?

Re: Razz trny advice, please
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's hardly time to panic. There are too many good low cards behind you to consider playing this dog.

[/ QUOTE ] Well, I guess if everyone agrees, I am wrong. My end game in trnys is really in need of work, tho.' I am constantly getting deep or making a final table and then it seems to come apart. Or maybe my expectations are unrealistic.

So, out of a hundred tournaments, how often do you expect to win if you are playing at the same level of competence as your competition?

[/ QUOTE ]
Depends on how many runners there are, if you're talking about first place or final 3. The best measure is your ROI (return on investment) if you're scoring by how much money you make b/c a lot of the prize pool is concentrated in the top spots so players who win once in a while may come out ahead of those who cash on a more regular basis. These stats usually take a lot of tournaments to converge on your true ROI, but you can still seek advice on how well you play in certain spots and if it's correct it will certainly improve your results in the long run.

Re: Razz trny advice, please
 

I think good players win first place about 1/3 of the time. Nah, just kidding. Have you really played 100?

Re: Razz trny advice, please
 

[ QUOTE ]
Depends on how many runners there are, if you're talking about first place or final 3.

[/ QUOTE ]
First. I want to be first in something besides a Sit n Go. I keep thinking I must play badly when I get up there, but maybe it's just like NLHE, at a final table you really are subject to really big stacks and really high limits. Now I think I should get over myself. I've only been playing Razz since about a week or so before I joined this forum. Here I am complaining because I'm not tossing Runninice off a final table.

You'd think a Razz player would have more patience.

[ QUOTE ]
I think good players win first place about 1/3 of the time. Nah, just kidding. Have you really played 100?

[/ QUOTE ]Over, actually, but that includes NLHE. I've probably played 25-30 Razz trny's from $1 to $10. Tens are the best, best players, easiest to cash in for me. The $5 is good, too, or used to be until everybody decided to be the Gus Hansen of Razz. I don't like FT tourny's, tho' come to think of it, I have cashed in a few. But there's too much gamble when the limits go up so fast.

I was just remembering Allen Cunningham, I think it was, saying he once went 18 months without even cashing in a trny. I just hate busting out. I always think I must have screwed up somewhere. Maybe next time I'll post my last few critical hands and everyone can give me some perspective, I don't seem to have any.

Re: Razz trny advice, please
 

[ QUOTE ]
So, out of a hundred tournaments, how often do you expect to win if you are playing at the same level of competence as your competition?

[/ QUOTE ]

1% of the time. Hopefully, you aspire to play somewhat better than your competition.

Re: Razz trny advice, please
 

wow, you guys are all not even close

this is such a snap raise it's not even funny

Re: Razz trny advice, please
 

[ QUOTE ]
wow, you guys are all not even close

this is such a snap raise it's not even funny

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you elaborate? What's good about raising here?

Re: Razz trny advice, please
 

[ QUOTE ]
wow, you guys are all not even close

this is such a snap raise it's not even funny

[/ QUOTE ]

See! I was right! Nittiest dumbass trny player in the universe! 'Splain it to us Adanthar..please.

Re: Razz trny advice, please
 

almost 20% of your stack is in the pot + only three lows out + 2 of your cards are dead + people play weak tight on FT bubbles = stick it in

also, if they just call third, chances are your hole cards won't matter because you'll either fold fourth or have the best hand

Re: Razz trny advice, please
 

[ QUOTE ]
also, if they just call third, chances are your hole cards won't matter because you'll either fold fourth or have the best hand

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know about that... I get people just calling me ALL THE TIME with hands I'd gladly cap with.

If someone raises 3rd, should he fold?

And lastly, yeah, the pot represents a nice addition to his stack. But also, 1sb represents a sizable loss.

Re: Razz trny advice, please
 

[ QUOTE ]
1% of the time. Hopefully, you aspire to play somewhat better than your competition.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ah, I do aspire. But when we get to the last 20 players in the trny, if it isn't a $1, I'm probably not better - but I might learn to be, or just get lucky, or not get thrown and realize OF COURSE you raise with this hand.

I can tell you why. Because chip leaders let no one play for free at that level. They will always raise with any two wheels or 6 and any other card. Because no one else is going to come in unless they have a real good hand, no one is going to play 678 then. Because once the table starts to get short everyone gets incredibly tight but the experienced chip leaders who run all over everyone else waiting for a hand because no one else can afford to speculate. Because I don't have time.

In this trny, right after this, I caught the bring-in FOUR times in a row. It was real ugly. I passed up my chance and deserved to go out 14th.

edited to add: this was PStars and they play a little differently than FT I find

Re: Razz trny advice, please
 

[ QUOTE ]
If someone raises 3rd, should he fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

"it depends"

tip in case you don't: it's ok to c/f fourth even in a reraised pot here if you wind up with 2 cards vs. a likely 4 cards

Re: Razz trny advice, please
 

Thanks, Adanthar.

[ QUOTE ]
But also, 1sb represents a sizable loss.

[/ QUOTE ]
Rusty, it was time to gamble. If this hand hadn't immediatly followed the one where I lost a huge portion of my stack, I'd have had my wits about me and reraised. This player would have re-reraised with a real hand and folded with a brick. I'd have won or gone out, but at least I wouldn't have gone out feeling like an idiot.

Where the hell is Mike Matesow when I need him?

Re: Razz trny advice, please
 

[ QUOTE ]
You have like 30 antes. As soon as you get involved in a hand you have 3bb. I'd wait for better position if not a better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is the number of antes the relevant number or is it an "M" type number based on the number of antes plus expected bring ins each time around the table. With antes at 400 and bring in at 600, hero expects to have to pay 3400 to play each cycle (assuming that he brings in 1 in 7 times). With his chip stack of 13,675 that gives him an "R" of about 4. I think this measure is a little better than number of antes because the bring in to ante ratio can vary depending on the structure.

Can someone who is a lot better player than me explain what "R" you would need before you started completing with essentially what hero had (low card showing with another wheel card in the hole)

Re: Razz trny advice, please
 

Prax,

I've played the Full Tilt $5+.50 tourney, 57 times. I have 2 1sts, 2 2nds, 1 6th, 1 8th, 2 13th and 2 14th for 10 cashs for a total of $389 in prizes vs. $313.50 in buy-in/rake. The fields range from 45 in the lowest to 265 for the highest (which was because a pro was playing). Typically there are about 70 runners (my wins had 73 and 74).

I've also played the $10+$1 5 times with one win and no other cashes. The win as for $120 (there were only 24 runners) for a net profit of $65.

I've played the $24+$2 13 times and have a 13th and 14th for $63 in cashes vs $338 in buy-ins and a $275 loss which more than eats up my profits in the others. (Also I have played a $20+$2 razz once and didn't cash). This is a guaranteed tournament and I largely played because there was a small overlay or it appeared there would be an overlay. I won't play again because I feel I am way overclassed in these and not properly rolled (many of the entries came after my wins in the $5 and $10 tourneys)

Re: Razz trny advice, please
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If someone raises 3rd, should he fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

"it depends"

tip in case you don't: it's ok to c/f fourth even in a reraised pot here if you wind up with 2 cards vs. a likely 4 cards

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, there is WAY too much money in this pot to give it up. Also, gap concept/etc.

I call a raise here w/ a T but not a J. Fourth is, you have to play poker and try and make a good decision depending on what happenes.

-ChipsAhoya

Re: Razz trny advice, please
 

[ QUOTE ]
Prax,

I've played the Full Tilt $5+.50 tourney, 57 times. I have 2 1sts, 2 2nds, 1 6th, 1 8th, 2 13th and 2 14th for 10 cashs for a total of $389 in prizes vs. $313.50 in buy-in/rake. The fields range from 45 in the lowest to 265 for the highest (which was because a pro was playing). Typically there are about 70 runners (my wins had 73 and 74).


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I'm impressed, don't you ever play at Stars? You'd love the $10 one-thousand dollar guarantee - you get over a hundred players almost always, but it's deep-stacked and you get a lot of play time.

Come play it with me tomorrow. Let's all go play it - at 7:45 eastern.

Re: Razz trny advice, please
 

I might if I have time. It's a pretty decent tournament. I think the last tournament hand I posted was from that but I don't remember for sure now.

Re: Razz trny advice, please
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Prax,

I've played the Full Tilt $5+.50 tourney, 57 times. I have 2 1sts, 2 2nds, 1 6th, 1 8th, 2 13th and 2 14th for 10 cashs for a total of $389 in prizes vs. $313.50 in buy-in/rake. The fields range from 45 in the lowest to 265 for the highest (which was because a pro was playing). Typically there are about 70 runners (my wins had 73 and 74).


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I'm impressed, don't you ever play at Stars? You'd love the $10 one-thousand dollar guarantee - you get over a hundred players almost always, but it's deep-stacked and you get a lot of play time.

Come play it with me tomorrow. Let's all go play it - at 7:45 eastern.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if you should be impressed - especially considering my $26 results. This wasn't meant as a brag and the sample size is fairly small. The point wasn't that it was a brag but rather that the wins will come. The more interesting thing about the results is the distribution of my cashes - I have either gotten heads up or just barely surpassed the bubble except for the 6th place. Although the one 2nd place was a total fluke - I was down to 1 BB after I got crippled on a hand with 8 players left but managed to double up several times in a row and then actually had a 3:1 chip lead heads up before I got my opponent all in on 5th with me having 4 wheel cards (one of which was paired) and my opponent having 2 face cards - of course i bricked twice and he went on to win. I generally don't play scared now when I'm the low stack at the bubble - I'm playing to win and not to cash at the bottom of the payout scale.

I have never played a real money razz tourney on Stars - don't usually have money on there (although one of my best friends IRL came in the top 25 in the WCOOP event after gettng in by sattelite). I can't play tomorrow anyway because I have a sports league thing. I may put some money on Stars and try on some weekend though escpecially if the game is deepstacked.

Re: Razz trny advice, please
 

I want to expand on Adanthar's comments.

In a cash game the fold is standard since you make your money by winning pots and if you bust out you reload. This situation is tournament razz which had very different goals then cash game razz. In tournament play the majority of the money goes to the last 3 players with the winner getting around 22% of the entire entry. Therefore your strategy is different. You want to be one of the last 3 people standing.

This hand is an excellent example of where the strategy in the two razz worlds diverge. The hero has a short stack- some people think a short stack is less than 5 big bets (Forest in the FTP tournament book) I think anything less than a stack that will allow you to get in a full bet on every street is short. But anyway by almost every standard the hero is short stacked.

If we can all agree that the hero is short stacked then the opponents can also see that he is short stacked and therefore (assuming we have concluded through observation that the hero is a good player) they know that he is looking for a situation to get his whole stack in and try to double up.

The hero's stack while short is still large enough to do some serious damage to the stack of anyone who goes to the mat against him and loses. The hero is worried that the two big stacks have a 5 and an A in the door and it seems this is why he folded. The big stacks (should) understand that if the hero brings it in for a raise he is probably looking for a place to make a stand and has chosen this hand. The big stacks, if they play and lose, will lose 1/3 of their chip stacks. In this situation they wouldn't come in unless they had a good hand. In Lee Nelson's new book, Kill Everyone, he talks about "fear equity" which is the fear you can instill in your opponent by being the first into a pot for a raise (Lee is talking about NL tournaments but the theory still applies here). In otherwords the big stacks know that if they call they are not risking 2,000 chips but 14,000 will eventually go in the pot. In poker you want to put the decision onto your opponent and here, by raisng you are doing just that.

If you pass on this opportunity and wait for a good hand then your stack may be so small that people will call you with much worse hands just to bust you out. While the current levels are 2,000/4,000 we don't know how close, in time, we are to the levels increasing. Without checking my guess is the next level is probably something like 3,000/6,000 with a 500 ante and 1,000 bring in. So what kind of situation will the hero be in once the limits rise?

This looks like an opportunity to maybe pick up some needed chips or a time where if you get lucky your stack will be large enough to give you soem elbow room to play. If you wait untill your stack is lower and the limits are higher even if you do double up you will still be short stacked.

I apologize if this seems to ramble but as Mark Twain said "if I had more time this posting would have been shorter".

Re: Razz trny advice, please
 

I would only complete this if I were late to act with high cards behind me. Here it is a clear fold. You can survive multiple hands, just wait till 3 cards of 8 and under and commit yourself with that hand.

Re: Razz trny advice, please
 

[x] post assumes hero is a good player
[x] post assumes villains are good players
[x] post assumes hero is not on tilt after losing last hand
[x] post assumes villains are smart enough to "fear"
[x] post confuses NLHE and the commitment threshold with FL razz
[x] post ignores the value of sneaking into the money and then looking for a gambling spot

The most probable outcome of this hand if hero had completed in ep is that one of the bigger stacks will have a real hand and raise him to "isolate the short stack". Then prax will have a very tough decision to make when he is clearly behind and without any implied odds since he doesn't have a big enough stack to make the villain pay him off if he were to hit a monster.

It is clearly not a snap completion, and I believe I'd fold >50% of the time.

Re: Razz trny advice, please
 

SG, we're ITM which matters a lot

Re: Razz trny advice, please
 

[ QUOTE ]
SG, we're ITM which matters a lot

[/ QUOTE ]
To qoute Emily Littella, "never mind." I really have to start paying attention to the OPs. I still think it's a decision point, but assuming 16-13 place is paid the same and 9-12 is say 20% more $, then I'm raising the majority of the time.

Re: Razz trny advice, please
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if you should be impressed - especially considering my $26 results. This wasn't meant as a brag ...

[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't think it was a brag and I really am impressed. If you are playing freerolls and low stakes it's a real accomplishment to get near the money much less in it. Kudos to you.

Re: Razz trny advice, please
 

[ QUOTE ]
I want to expand on Adanthar's comments.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you so much for taking the time to write this excellent post. Exactly exactly exactly. (I have to put this on my blog, if you don't mind.)

SG, I am a pretty good Razz trny player. (What's ITM?) Not great, but darned good for someone who's been playing Razz such a short time. The others are also good and play just as mshalen describes. I was auto-raising when I first saw 3rd but I was on tilt and when I get tilty I try to sit back a few hands. Only I didn't have any hands I could afford to sit back with. I just am not experienced enough to have trusted my instinct. I might have lost the whole thing right here, but I would have felt a damn sight better about my play.

Everything MS said here is so right on, including how I define a real short stack, if I haven't enough chips to really play a hand I am critical. It's also important to know that you have to try while they will be nervous about calling. Tho I have sometimes tripled up by waiting (because there's also no advantage to coming in with KK7), and had a bunch of callers when I finally did have 236 and gotten back in the game.

Re: Razz trny advice, please
 

[ QUOTE ]
SG, we're ITM which matters a lot

[/ QUOTE ]
ITM?

Re: Razz trny advice, please
 

In
The
Money

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: Razz trny advice, please
 

[ QUOTE ]
In
The
Money

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks. Why did being that make what SG said different? I know the game changes ITM (yay! I love learning new terms)but I don't think I understand enough about the strategy changes if you want to win. I know a lot of people who were just hanging on to get into the money go out quickly then, but what's the deal with chip leaders. I am that sometimes and I think I just don't get it.

Anyone? My game starts in an hour.

Re: Razz trny advice, please
 

There is a huge leap in real $ between being on the bubble and just barely in the money (an infinite leap, really). So, when you are very close to going out, and so are some other people, you should behave more conservatively in this situation if it's possible for you to limp into the money.

If you're already IN the money, the next place up might not be a big money jump, and it's worth more to gamble at a fighting chance to win than to limp your way into a 0% increase in payout (in the case of the lowest levels where going up one more place won't make you more money), or even to make 10% more.

Being short near the bubble is one of those weird places where chips have no correlation to money.

When you are NOT short stacked you should pick on people BADLY near the money because the do not want to have spent 3 hours on this damn thing to go out on the bubble.

Re: Razz trny advice, please
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In
The
Money

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks. Why did being that make what SG said different? I know the game changes ITM (yay! I love learning new terms)but I don't think I understand enough about the strategy changes if you want to win. I know a lot of people who were just hanging on to get into the money go out quickly then, but what's the deal with chip leaders. I am that sometimes and I think I just don't get it.

Anyone? My game starts in an hour.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you're only a couple spots away from making the money, you want to play more conservative with a short stack esp. when none of the other stacks are really all that deep (compared to the limits). You're not going to dump a 3-card bike but you don't have to be desperate with 30 antes left, and you have a good shot at sneaking into the money. If the payout structure is flat, like I was guessing, then once you've made the money you're probably going to have to move up to 5th or 6th place to get the same incremental value that you did by getting into the money instead of bubbling out. So that's the time to gamble when you've got about an even money proposition.

Re: Razz trny advice, please
 

I'm going to play in the $10 tonight. I know you don't want to give away your seekrit pokerstars identity but if you feel like it, give me a "nice roggles" if you see me.

Re: Razz trny advice, please
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to play in the $10 tonight. I know you don't want to give away your seekrit pokerstars identity but if you feel like it, give me a "nice roggles" if you see me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cool! Wait - are you pulling my leg? You're roggles on PS? I thought Roggles was roggles.

I'm SO confused! When it's over if we played together I will PM you my 007 if I have not embarrassed myself too much.

Thank you and SG for these comments. Going to go reread this thread and make notes. Now we just need seat where you get more then 4 playable hands in the first hour.... [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Razz trny advice, please
 

Nah, I'm swafjto. It's just a joke from some thread the other day, where roggles=man boobs.

I won a hand already! It's awesome.