I think I\'m turning into a Neoconservative
 

Currently I am supporting Ron Paul because of the foreign policy issues. However, lately I have questioning it. There seems to a lot of people saying Iran is really not a threat to The United States. Ron Paul consistently says something in the Republican debates that I really do not agree with. He says that Russia had 40,000 nukes and nothing happened then, and now we are scared of a country just getting one. Well, Russia knew of mutual destruction. Iran does too, but the problem is the nuke will not come from them but from a terrorist group not wearing Iranian colors.

When you look at the status of Iran, it really is a threat to us. Here's one video on Youtube, which looks like it aired on an Iranian news station. The country's leaders are rooted in Anti-semitism. John Haggee came out with his movie Obsession a while back, and while I understand he probably has a motive since he is a huge Evangelical Zionist with unwavering support for Israel, it's scary. Memri has so many videos of hate for Jews and the West. People come on their news channels and talk about the old propoganda book The Protocols of the Elders of Zion which Hitler made required reading in schools when he came to power.

Ron Paul thinks that there is blowback and that is the reason the Middle East want to kill us all. A lot of people think Islamofacism is some kind of myth when clearly it is not. I am really starting to question if we pull out completely if it will change anything. Yes, they are pissed at us because we put troops on the Holy Land and of our support of Israel. But the radical leaders of their states constantly show anti-Jew and American propoganda and want to spread Islam on us. If we pull out like Ron Paul wants to and let Iran develop nukes, it could be disastrous. Islamofacism is real and their radical leaders simply hate the West and if we dropped all foreign aid to Israel I don't think it would change a bit unless we were no longer the world's only leading superpower.

Here's a good quiz I took yesterday that tries to determine if you are a Realist, a Neoconservative, etc, and what past people like Wilson or Roosevelt would have been during our time.

Re: I think I\'m turning into a Neoconservative
 

Oops, the correct link to the quiz is here . Out of the four possible choices I was a Realist.

Re: I think I\'m turning into a Neoconservative
 

I guess it just depends if you think that the majority of American money should be spent to try to "contain" the radical fringe. There's scary people everywhere, man. They aren't limited to "Islamofacists" or the Middle East.

I'm MUCH more afraid of our government than terrorists.

Re: I think I\'m turning into a Neoconservative
 

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I'm MUCH more afraid of our government than terrorists.

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Are you afraid of any of them? What are you afraid of?

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I'm MUCH more afraid of our government than terrorists.

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what does this mean? afraid. i hear how people are afraid of terrorists, or the government, from the media, or from politicians from both sides of the aisle. all the time.

do you live you life differently because of this fear? are you really afraid, or just wary, or just using the common language of the day?

i don't see people fearful in everyday life.

i don't get this, and i'm not being sarcastic...

Bedreviter - you beat me to the punch. you already handled it while i was typing...

Re: I think I\'m turning into a Neoconservative
 

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I guess it just depends if you think that the majority of American money should be spent to try to "contain" the radical fringe. There's scary people everywhere, man. They aren't limited to "Islamofacists" or the Middle East.

I'm MUCH more afraid of our government than terrorists.

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1. being afraid of our govt..retarded.

2. what is usually the catalyst of most of the recent major world conflicts (WW2, WW1, Civil War etc? money, power, or land, or persecution.


3. what is going to be the catalyst of a possible WW3? religion.


The rest of the world cant afford (well can, but doesnt want to) the cost of going to war/disruption of peace etc.


Money is the motivator, it wont be of the next war.

One thing my father taught me is that a pint of blood costs more than a gallon of gold.

Carmine Lupertazzi

Re: I think I\'m turning into a Neoconservative
 

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I'm MUCH more afraid of our government than terrorists.

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Are you afraid of any of them? What are you afraid of?

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I don't know if I'd say that I'm afraid of the government RIGHT NOW. I'm wary at the least, and see much greater potentional for problems in the future. Give a little, they take more. At least if terrorists get me, it'll be over quickly :-P

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I'm MUCH more afraid of our government than terrorists.

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what does this mean? afraid. i hear how people are afraid of terrorists, or the government, from the media, or from politicians from both sides of the aisle. all the time.

do you live you life differently because of this fear? are you really afraid, or just wary, or just using the common language of the day?

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I don't live differently, other than researching other places to live. That phrase was relative though. I'm more afraid of drunk drivers than terrorists too. I'm more afraid of bees than terrorists. That doesn't mean that I live in fear of any of these things. But I think that the government has a higher chance of ruining my life than terrorists.

Re: I think I\'m turning into a Neoconservative
 

I tend to think that picking fights with people is a sure way to cause more animosity. You can't go all over the world fighting an ideology. Yeah there are "radical islamists", but they are a small percent of the religion. You could look at America as the "radical christians" attacking all these muslim countries, with the exact same arguments. Thousands of Americans were killed by islamists, but hundreds of thousands of them were killed by Americans. Just ponder that for a moment.

If we go into Afghanistan to do nation building, then Iraq, then Iran, then god knows where, I mean how is that any different than what rogue empires do? We have to look at what we do, from the perspective of others. Didn't we fight nazis and the japanese in world war 2 to stop this kind of behavior?

I mean how exactly are we going to win this war on terror? If you honestly think about it, there's only two ways. Invade practically every country in the world, or try and be friends and have peaceful relationships with them.

The more countries you invade, the more and more hostility you create, and more people are willing to commit acts of terrorism against you.

When crime happens, you deal with it accordingly. Pre-emptive strikes make no sense. If you leave them alone, they might attack you, or they might leave you alone. But if you attack them first, you KNOW FOR SURE they are going to attack you back.

If a country attacks another, there is some support from the people, and some opposition from the people. Some will join the fight, but some will oppose it. But when your country is being invaded by a foreign enemy, there near 100% support for the government/military to defend the borders, and people will rise up and fight. Those fighters are labeled as "terrorists", but wouldn't we all fight foreign invaders if they were marching on our streets?

And that's all you're going to get by attacking Iran. You're also going to get a draft, because Iran is 3 times the size of Iran, and we have enough trouble with recruitment. I wonder why.

Re: I think I\'m turning into a Neoconservative
 

I guess I'm the only one that is afriad of our government AND terrorists.

Islamofacism is real, terrorists hate us, many (if not most) in the middle east hate us and would like to see us either dead or an Islamic state.

That being said, I think it is possible and even likely that many in our current government are using this fear to push through legislation that is quit the opposite of the intentions of our founding fathers. Once we start down that slippery slope and start to sacrifice some of the freedoms we hold dear and allow the government to suspend or even eliminate the checks and balances which are the bedrock of the American form of government, then watch out people. If the Islamofacists don't get us, the Amero ones will.

Scary times indeed.

Re: I think I\'m turning into a Neoconservative
 

I tried to find the answer "None of the Above" on all of these questions, but it wasn't there. As such, I was unable to answer any of the questions.

Re: I think I\'m turning into a Neoconservative
 

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Yeah there are "radical islamists", but they are a small percent of the religion.

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Yes, this is true. But the problem is that the radicals own the state news and are leading the countries. It's unfortunate that the people are subject to it.

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Didn't we fight nazis and the japanese in world war 2 to stop this kind of behavior?

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Yes this is the iffy part of this imo. Different ideologies, however. Our goal is not to round up 6 million Arabs and gas them like Nazi Germany did to the Jews. We have isolated incidents like Guantanamo but we aren't plundering villages, killing hundreds of thousands, and forcing the girls into prostitution like the Japanese did. Yes people are dying there but it's war.

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I mean how exactly are we going to win this war on terror? If you honestly think about it, there's only two ways. Invade practically every country in the world, or try and be friends and have peaceful relationships with them.

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Is peace really possible? They hate the West because of Israel, and their radical leaders also hate us because we are prosperous and free. Their goal is to end the Zionist regime. They need to accept a peaceful two state but they didn't 60 years ago and they won't accept it now.

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Those fighters are labeled as "terrorists", but wouldn't we all fight foreign invaders if they were marching on our streets?

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I understand that but the difference is terrorists willing kill innocents for their objectives. It sucks and I feel bad for the people. It's not their fault that they are lead by radicals.

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And that's all you're going to get by attacking Iran. You're also going to get a draft, because Iran is 3 times the size of Iran, and we have enough trouble with recruitment. I wonder why.

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Well, I don't think a draft will happen. What's even scarier is that we will use the nuclear bunker missles to hit desired targets. IRan is way too big and has a good military. Casualties would be immense if we went there like Iraq.

Also, I'm not saying I agree with everything I stated here, but I wanted to try to create some counter arguments.

Re: I think I\'m turning into a Neoconservative
 

Can´t the US bomb sites where they suspect atomic weapons are being made without invading the country and not having to deal with their military?

Re: I think I\'m turning into a Neoconservative
 

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Is peace really possible?

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wtf? We go home, are they going to send their sailboats at us or something?

Re: I think I\'m turning into a Neoconservative
 

I'd imagine your leaning towards neo-con dogma has more to do with seemingly easy answers to complex problems. Blow-back is the fulcrum of Ron Paul's foreign policy.

This doesn't mean that we should be comfortable with Iran getting nuclear weapons, but it does mean that attacking them in the classical sense will do more harm than good. Think about this: Given a long enough time table, there will be no stopping the spread of nuclear weapons.

Decades, not centuries, will decide how we deal with this fact.

That test sucks, even compared to the average online questionnaire. Any test that states "Results are not scientific" when as much is more obvious than a queer footballer, deserves as much respect as Paulie Shore self-fellating during yoga class. So please don't let any online test, especially this one, influence your political beliefs. Read books instead.



From the Link:

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What does a neoconservative dream world look like?

Neocons envision a world in which the United States is the unchallenged superpower

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WTF? I'd like to think any rational persons dream world would consist of something beyond one f'ing country. How about a world in with a superpower isn't necessary? Also, talking about weapons in a philosophical "dream world" scenario screams 'Lunatic', to me.

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"Given a long enough time table, there will be no stopping the spread of nuclear weapons."

Nonsense. That is only a foregone conclusion when you ascribe to "non-interventionism". So for an RP supporter its a self-fulfilling prophecy, for others, just part of the spectrum of outcomes.

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"Given a long enough time table, there will be no stopping the spread of nuclear weapons."

Nonsense. That is only a foregone conclusion when you ascribe to "non-interventionism". So for an RP supporter its a self-fulfilling prophecy, for others, just part of the spectrum of outcomes.

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So you think we'll all have blown ourselves up before then?

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Yeah there are "radical islamists", but they are a small percent of the religion.

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Yes, this is true. But the problem is that the radicals own the state news and are leading the countries. It's unfortunate that the people are subject to it.

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Sounds familiar...

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"Given a long enough time table, there will be no stopping the spread of nuclear weapons."

Nonsense.

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Really? So you think it's possible to stop anyone else from getting nukes for say the next trillion years?

Re: I think I\'m turning into a Neoconservative
 

When I was I think like 2 or 3, I was afraid of car washes.

Re: I think I\'m turning into a Neoconservative
 

reductio ad absurdum

Re: I think I\'m turning into a Neoconservative
 

Not all countries with nukes are a direct threat. A country like Iran though is different because they can pass it on to a terrorist organization. China isn't a huge nuclear concern IMO. They don't support terrorist groups and break the code of war. I would hope the understand mutual destruction.

Re: I think I\'m turning into a Neoconservative
 

I share many of your concerns, but in my opinion the Neoconservatives have the wrong answers.

The Neo-Cons actually believe that the Middle East can and will be transformed into a freedom-loving, tolerant, and democratic region - and possibly very soon. Yes, and the Pope will convert to Judaism or Islam pretty soon, also. Right.

U.S. troops are not going to bring peace and prosperity to the Middle East. U.S. troops are not going to stop the Sunnis and Shi'ites from hating and fighting each other. Condi Rice isn't going to convince the Palestinians and the Israelis to get along with each other, nor persuade Fatah to get along with Hamas.

The Middle East isn't Disneyland. Our leaders are viewing the Middle East through very wishful rose-colored glasses.

I agree that Iran should not be allowed to develop nukes. I don't think U.S. troops should invade Iran, though, and I don't believe a large U.S. presence on the ground will do much of anything to help bring about a free democratic Middle East.

If Iran absolutely HAS to be stopped, well, it can probably be stopped via air power. My guess is that will happen, too. It would take a much larger and more thorough air campaign than was unleashed on Iraq, though. Such military contingency plans have indeed been developed, according to news reports.

The Neo-Cons have been embroiling the USA in a costly and unwinnable perpetual struggle in the Middle East.

As Adios pointed out, the goals in Iraq keep changing. There won't be any real victory until the country is free, secure and democratic, but that won't happen until the Iraqis are darn good and ready to make it happen. And the Iraqis they're obviously not ready for that now.

So the goalposts keep receding, and now the goalposts are so far away and are dependent on what the Iraqis do, not what the U.S. does. As above, the U.S. cannot make the Iraqis do what we want them to do or be like we would want them to be. And as long as they aren't, and as long as Iraq isn't free, secure and democratic, the Iraq War won't be considered won. Does anyone else see the inherent absurdity of holding that as a definition for victory and withdrawal, as the administration is now defining victory and success? Only the Iraqis have the ability to bring about a secure, free and democratic Iraq - America simply can't force that. But America has to stay until that is achieved??? wtf???

I don't think the terrorist-sponsoring, America-and-Israel-hating regime of the mullahs should get The Bomb. A long boot war in Iran would be absurd, though. If they're going to be stopped, it will either be through diplomatic pressures (highly unlikely) or through a truly massive air campaign (rather likely IMO). The ramifications of such a campaign are, of course, quite murky.

You don't have to be a Neo-Con, or to agree with the Neoconservative's hang-the-cost pipe-dream agendas, to think that Iran should not get The Bomb.

The Neo-Con dream looks appealing on the surface, but it has no real foundation to stand upon. It's just a ghastly expensive pie-in-the-sky hope (or matter of faith) that America can forcibly somehow spread America everywhere - and fast. It's the "and fast" part that is worrisome. The Neo-Con faith that all people everywhere aspire to be like us, or to believe and run their affairs as we do, is simply deep and ignorant hubris.

So there you have it.

Thanks for reading, and all comments welcome.

Re: I think I\'m turning into a Neoconservative
 

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reductio ad absurdum

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Then how long exactly is a "long enough time table"? Just short enough that you think we can stop anyone from getting nukes for that long? The fact is that the statement you called "nonsense" is obviously factually correct. Are you going to admit your error and move on?

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Not all countries with nukes are a direct threat. A country like Iran though is different because they can pass it on to a terrorist organization.

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You really think they'd want to do that and get nuked?

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If Iran absolutely HAS to be stopped, well, Israel will take care of it.

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