hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
 

10/20 NL
villain is tough and relative tight, a little tricky
hero has been playing LAG
Effective stacks are 7K

2 limps, villain in CO makes it 120, hero calls in BB with 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 1 caller

Flop:
A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero bets 200, villain raises to 800, Hero calls
Turn:
8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero checks, Villain bets 1400, Hero raises to 3K, villain goes all in, hero calls

thoughts on all streets appreciated. do you like my line on the turn?

Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
 

I think I'd raise the turn more, about 4800, but I think the turn check raise is sexy.

I like the flop lead/call as well.

Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
 

I think I'd rather lead this turn than check-raise. I'd rather check-call than check-raise. It just makes you look ridiculously strong and a tough TAG is not going to stack off with 350BBs with AK here (edit: I guess this depends on how LAG your image is, but still I like turn c/r less than other lines).

I'd also prob fold PF.

Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
 

nh

Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
 

against a player described as tough/tight i dont like the pf call. i think pf calls like this OOP are one of the biggest leaks of the current crop of players. calls like this OOP are reserved for players who will go broke w/ tptk and overpairs not the player described

Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
 

[ QUOTE ]
10/20 NL
villain is tough and relative tight, a little tricky
hero has been playing LAG
Effective stacks are 7K

2 limps, villain in CO makes it 120, hero calls in BB with 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 1 caller

Flop:
A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero bets 200, villain raises to 800, Hero calls
Turn:
8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero checks, Villain bets 1400, Hero raises to 3K, villain goes all in, hero calls

thoughts on all streets appreciated. do you like my line on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

best play on flop is min cr /fold. as played gl catching up w/ his set of aces..

Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
 

[ QUOTE ]
nh

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
 

[ QUOTE ]
against a player described as tough/tight i dont like the pf call. i think pf calls like this OOP are one of the biggest leaks of the current crop of players. calls like this OOP are reserved for players who will go broke w/ tptk and overpairs not the player described

[/ QUOTE ]

nitacular.

Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
against a player described as tough/tight i dont like the pf call. i think pf calls like this OOP are one of the biggest leaks of the current crop of players. calls like this OOP are reserved for players who will go broke w/ tptk and overpairs not the player described

[/ QUOTE ]

nitacular.

[/ QUOTE ]

if mr. gambool is in L.A. (as the name implies) ive been playing in said game (and its earlier equivalents) for the past 20 years and have had time to see thousands of players come and go. many of whom like to call my pfr's w/ crap hands oop for the "implied odds" only to find its not so fun to play tough solid properly bankrolled players oop. some learn some dont...you obviously havent.

Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
against a player described as tough/tight i dont like the pf call. i think pf calls like this OOP are one of the biggest leaks of the current crop of players. calls like this OOP are reserved for players who will go broke w/ tptk and overpairs not the player described

[/ QUOTE ]

nitacular.

[/ QUOTE ]

if mr. gambool is in L.A. (as the name implies) ive been playing in said game (and its earlier equivalents) for the past 20 years and have had time to see thousands of players come and go. many of whom like to call my pfr's w/ crap hands oop for the "implied odds" only to find its not so fun to play tough solid properly bankrolled players oop. some learn some dont...you obviously havent.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, so your argument is that you've been playing 20 years therefore I should take your word as god. the funny thing is that unless you play online i've probably played way more hands than you also.

Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
against a player described as tough/tight i dont like the pf call. i think pf calls like this OOP are one of the biggest leaks of the current crop of players. calls like this OOP are reserved for players who will go broke w/ tptk and overpairs not the player described

[/ QUOTE ]

nitacular.

[/ QUOTE ]

if mr. gambool is in L.A. (as the name implies) ive been playing in said game (and its earlier equivalents) for the past 20 years and have had time to see thousands of players come and go. many of whom like to call my pfr's w/ crap hands oop for the "implied odds" only to find its not so fun to play tough solid properly bankrolled players oop. some learn some dont...you obviously havent.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, so your argument is that you've been playing 20 years therefore I should take your word as god. the funny thing is that unless you play online also i've probably played way more hands than you also.

[/ QUOTE ]

take my word as god because as far as you're concerned i am god. the better players on this forum can follow the logic of the arguement and make a well thought out counter arguement if they like.

Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
against a player described as tough/tight i dont like the pf call. i think pf calls like this OOP are one of the biggest leaks of the current crop of players. calls like this OOP are reserved for players who will go broke w/ tptk and overpairs not the player described

[/ QUOTE ]

nitacular.

[/ QUOTE ]

if mr. gambool is in L.A. (as the name implies) ive been playing in said game (and its earlier equivalents) for the past 20 years and have had time to see thousands of players come and go. many of whom like to call my pfr's w/ crap hands oop for the "implied odds" only to find its not so fun to play tough solid properly bankrolled players oop. some learn some dont...you obviously havent.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, so your argument is that you've been playing 20 years therefore I should take your word as god. the funny thing is that unless you play online i've probably played way more hands than you also.

[/ QUOTE ]
limon is legit yo

Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
against a player described as tough/tight i dont like the pf call. i think pf calls like this OOP are one of the biggest leaks of the current crop of players. calls like this OOP are reserved for players who will go broke w/ tptk and overpairs not the player described

[/ QUOTE ]

nitacular.

[/ QUOTE ]

if mr. gambool is in L.A. (as the name implies) ive been playing in said game (and its earlier equivalents) for the past 20 years and have had time to see thousands of players come and go. many of whom like to call my pfr's w/ crap hands oop for the "implied odds" only to find its not so fun to play tough solid properly bankrolled players oop. some learn some dont...you obviously havent.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, so your argument is that you've been playing 20 years therefore I should take your word as god. the funny thing is that unless you play online also i've probably played way more hands than you also.

[/ QUOTE ]

take my word as god because as far as you're concerned i am god. the better players on this forum can follow the logic of the arguement and make a well thought out counter arguement if they like.

[/ QUOTE ]

well fine, I'll argue about the hand instead of making statements about how long I've been playing. First off, I think your point of folding this OOP is stronger if there weren't two (or three, don't want to check the action again) limpers behind that are probably going to call if you call.

Also, we don't have to play 98 for pure implied odds. We get to make moves on all sorts of flops (76x, 6s5sx, any two spade flop etc etc) that will widen our perceived range and image at the table and enable us to get paid in more situations. If we are only calling here with mid to low pairs here pre, this tough player will never pay us off on any hand.

Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
 

the pf argument is pretty dumb. there's nothing wrong with playing 98s for just a pot-sized pf raise with 350bb stacks and probable 3-4way action. there are far bigger mistakes to talk about in this hand on later streets, the turn cr being the biggest imo.

Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
 

[ QUOTE ]

the pf argument is pretty dumb. there's nothing wrong with playing 98s for just a pot-sized pf raise with 350bb stacks and probable 3-4way action. there are far bigger mistakes to talk about in this hand on later streets, the turn cr being the biggest imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

would you check call or bet call or bet shove?

Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
 

[ QUOTE ]
playing in said game for the past 20 years

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

i dont blame anyone for getting bored of hand analysis or noobs, but i would just not say anything before i just trolled someone and said it was cause i play for 20 years.

also 10/20 live <<<<<< 5/10 online
20 years live <<<< 2 years online
hating << helping

Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
 

this is one ugly hand, if you want to make a profit by calling preflop oop with these hands then you have to play better postflop. i think the flop donk-call is a big mistake as is the turn c/r.. by the time the money goes in ur 2 pair is no good, gl hitting the flush on the last one..

Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
 

god i hate that turn play.

Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
 

Results?

Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
 

Can who doesn't like a turn C/R explain to me why? Is it because they check behind all their strong one pair hands but only bet their sets and two pair hands?

Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
 

[ QUOTE ]
It just makes you look ridiculously strong and a tough TAG is not going to stack off with 350BBs with AK here

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
 

Yeah turn looks like a play that a donk would make (omg 2 pair + flush draw = ez ARR INN), but anytime the money goes in, you are way behind.

I think turn is def. a c/c.

Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah turn looks like a play that a donk would make (omg 2 pair + flush draw = ez ARR INN), but anytime the money goes in, you are way behind.

I think turn is def. a c/c.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
against a player described as tough/tight i dont like the pf call. i think pf calls like this OOP are one of the biggest leaks of the current crop of players. calls like this OOP are reserved for players who will go broke w/ tptk and overpairs not the player described

[/ QUOTE ]

nitacular.

[/ QUOTE ]

if mr. gambool is in L.A. (as the name implies) ive been playing in said game (and its earlier equivalents) for the past 20 years and have had time to see thousands of players come and go. many of whom like to call my pfr's w/ crap hands oop for the "implied odds" only to find its not so fun to play tough solid properly bankrolled players oop. some learn some dont...you obviously havent.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, so your argument is that you've been playing 20 years therefore I should take your word as god. the funny thing is that unless you play online i've probably played way more hands than you also.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is not strictly a question of how many hands you have played. Thinking about playing, which Limon has done plenty of, also counts.

This exchange is a perfect example of why this forum sucks now. Two years ago, most of the regulars (AZK, FSU, etc.) begged Limon to post more. His posts probably were more informative on a per post basis than almost any other poster. Now we get this [censored].

Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
 

what is the best flop line?

Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
 

[ QUOTE ]
what is the best flop line?

[/ QUOTE ]

personally i like a c/r b/c i'm not sad to see it get checked through

Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
 

"Two years ago, most of the regulars (AZK, FSU, etc.) begged Limon to post more. His posts probably were more informative on a per post basis than almost any other poster. Now we get this [censored]."

I completely agree. Limon is one of the top posters on these forums, hands down.

As for whoever claimed to have played more hands and blahblah....you are not as good as limon. Sorry. And not to mention this hand is live and limon has played in this game for many years so he has an idea of the dynamics. He may have even played with said villain. And his word should be taken as the word of god except when he is tearing you up. Then he is just funny.

Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Two years ago, most of the regulars (AZK, FSU, etc.) begged Limon to post more. His posts probably were more informative on a per post basis than almost any other poster. Now we get this [censored]."

I completely agree. Limon is one of the top posters on these forums, hands down.

As for whoever claimed to have played more hands and blahblah....you are not as good as limon. Sorry. And not to mention this hand is live and limon has played in this game for many years so he has an idea of the dynamics. He may have even played with said villain. And his word should be taken as the word of god except when he is tearing you up. Then he is just funny.

[/ QUOTE ]

His word: don't call 98s OOP in what will be a multiway pot. This is amazingly tight. His reasoning when told this was tight was lolz I've played for 20 years. Not exactly the best argument.

Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
 

Kind surprised Limon would take this position as we've exchanged in the past some PMs regarding preflop play. his position then (a year ago?) was that limped > raised > reraised (ie 3betting is bad) but it's a shame to not play a pot given normal stacks w/ said SC.

It's funny because the PMs came regarding when I was trying to defend raising limpers > over limping with SCs, and I was referencing a mix of limon, S/S, and my own thoughts, and in the end as it turned out both limon and S/S pointed towards overlimping. (So I was left with my own analysis, which I still fall back on and think is more correct)

Anyway, pf is fine here, although Limon has a good point, which is don't play hands out of position against really good people, especially deep, because that is not where you stand to make a lot of money.

Again, "that said," 98s should show some profit and you should decide to play this hand, as folding shows 0 profit.

*BTW, mike, I'll have to harass you online, or anyone else in this thread: (LETS BE GROWN UP AND TRY TO SALVAGE THIS AMIRITE?)
What is the best turn play? if you check, you're calling this, right? Should we lead here? If I'm shallow im pretty happy about checkshoving. (Or betting and shoving river unimproved) Are we supposed to lead to get value from draw/1pair, and if raised, call and decide on river? (Ie possibly fold unimproved, possibly pay off, etc) Are we supposed to B3B? I think that is suicidal.

Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
 

His argument: Playing raised pots OOP with weak ass SC's that often times make the second best hand is a big leak. And his 20 years comment seems very appropriate for his argument since he has probably seen many go by the wayside in an attempt to 'loosen or mix it up'. There is a time and a place to widen your range. He is advocating this not be one of them. Don't kid yourself if you don't think he is capable of playing ATC when the moment calls for it. His post was pertaining to this spot though. In todays game though, I am sure many disagree with him. That is not to say he doesn't know what he is talking about.

Whatever though. I don't know him from anything but his posts. But if you go back and read some of his posts, you will gain those 'ah ha' moments that we all strive for. They are that enlightening....

Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
 

I often get that image and play the hand the same way and get paid by AQ or something stupid as well as nailed by the occasional set of aces. if your right about your image then well played. but like another poster said, people tend to over estimate this effect.

Online i dont get that image so my standard line would look like

bet/call the flop. check/call the turn (after being raised on the flop)

river play is complicated and depends on how the villian plays. If he likes to fold, throw some pot sized bluffs on a lot of the rivers that seemed to make straights, especially if the river is a offsuit seven.

if u fill up, check/call if AA is a reasonable part of his range or bet/fold if its only a small part.

make a big bet if a spade falls.

otherwise check and make a tough choice.

players try to hard to "avoid tough spots" as if thats the goal. They should be "avoid tough spots...if its +EV" which is implied, but ignored.

Online this is ok because our capacity is better spent playing more tables than fussing about marginal lines.

Live I ALWAYS try to take lines with the highest EV even if i know it can put me in a tough spot later. If you give up EV to make decisions easier later then you need to get better at making these decisions. If you dont agree with this then tell me why "short stacking" is any different.

Live players have longer(time wise) downswings because they play so few hands an hour that i think they often scarifice too much EV to try escape variance. The irony is that because their games are so soft, these plays have more value than they do online.
<font color="brown"> </font>

Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Two years ago, most of the regulars (AZK, FSU, etc.) begged Limon to post more. His posts probably were more informative on a per post basis than almost any other poster. Now we get this [censored]."

I completely agree. Limon is one of the top posters on these forums, hands down.

As for whoever claimed to have played more hands and blahblah....you are not as good as limon. Sorry. And not to mention this hand is live and limon has played in this game for many years so he has an idea of the dynamics. He may have even played with said villain. And his word should be taken as the word of god except when he is tearing you up. Then he is just funny.

[/ QUOTE ]

His word: don't call 98s OOP in what will be a multiway pot. This is amazingly tight. His reasoning when told this was tight was lolz I've played for 20 years. Not exactly the best argument.

[/ QUOTE ]

that wasnt even close to my reasoning...reading comprehension 101

Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
 

[ QUOTE ]
although Limon has a good point, which is don't play hands out of position against really good people, especially deep, because that is not where you stand to make a lot of money.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is all that i was saying. my advice was based on the op's description of the villian (i actually pay attention..doh) any other description would elicit a different response. ive played 89 suited from the blind a million times but not against bobby hoff raising from the button...not a good spot.

Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
 

[ QUOTE ]
What is the best turn play? if you check, you're calling this, right? Should we lead here? If I'm shallow im pretty happy about checkshoving. (Or betting and shoving river unimproved) Are we supposed to lead to get value from draw/1pair, and if raised, call and decide on river? (Ie possibly fold unimproved, possibly pay off, etc) Are we supposed to B3B? I think that is suicidal.

[/ QUOTE ]
i think we're pretty much on the same page. standard would be to check-call, although sometimes i lead believing i'm ahead. getting raised again would change my mind on that, so i agree that a 3bet-shove this deep would be...unwise. if stacks were 200bb or less, i'd crai on turn, but with this depth and a tight player, his stack's not going in with a 1-pair hand.

Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
although Limon has a good point, which is don't play hands out of position against really good people, especially deep, because that is not where you stand to make a lot of money.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is all that i was saying. my advice was based on the op's description of the villian (i actually pay attention..doh) any other description would elicit a different response. ive played 89 suited from the blind a million times but not against bobby hoff raising from the button...not a good spot.

[/ QUOTE ]
still, calling pf in the op's spot cannot be a BIG mistake. if it's a mistake at all, it's negligible. assuming that op plays decent postflop, that is.

Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
 

Mikech,

How low do you go with the SC's here? 56 worthy? 67?

Also, I'm sure that it may be a multiway pot that develops (thus your hand gets good pot and implied odds) but we don't close the action which has to play some role. And as stated by limon and repeated by Rob (though he doesn't fully endorse it) and myself, playing these type hands OOP deep against a "good tricky player" is not ideal at all.

Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
10/20 NL
villain is tough and relative tight, a little tricky
hero has been playing LAG
Effective stacks are 7K

2 limps, villain in CO makes it 120, hero calls in BB with 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 1 caller

Flop:
A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero bets 200, villain raises to 800, Hero calls
Turn:
8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero checks, Villain bets 1400, Hero raises to 3K, villain goes all in, hero calls

thoughts on all streets appreciated. do you like my line on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

best play on flop is min cr /fold. as played gl catching up w/ his set of aces..

[/ QUOTE ]

since the thread got really sidetracked I think this post got overlooked. Why would you play the flop that way? that's one of the most random lines I have seen in awhile.

It might be pretty sick though, this deep. If he has a set he'll tell you right on the flop when he reraises and if he just calls his hand is pretty well-defined as AK or AQ.

Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
10/20 NL
villain is tough and relative tight, a little tricky
hero has been playing LAG
Effective stacks are 7K

2 limps, villain in CO makes it 120, hero calls in BB with 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 1 caller

Flop:
A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero bets 200, villain raises to 800, Hero calls
Turn:
8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero checks, Villain bets 1400, Hero raises to 3K, villain goes all in, hero calls

thoughts on all streets appreciated. do you like my line on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

best play on flop is min cr /fold. as played gl catching up w/ his set of aces..

[/ QUOTE ]

since the thread got really sidetracked I think this post got overlooked. Why would you play the flop that way? that's one of the most random lines I have seen in awhile.

It might be pretty sick though, this deep. If he has a set he'll tell you right on the flop when he reraises and if he just calls his hand is pretty well-defined as AK or AQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

random+sick=very good description of my style. i wonder if thats why everytime i post a half dozen guys who reg'd yesterday but already have 1,000,000 posts say im the lamest poster in the history of 2+2, then a year later im me w/ questions about their play. i also think its funny when people asume im an old dude who hasnt played online when, in fact, i was the most active player on the entire west coast at party before the "ban" and had several meetings w/ vikrant to improve the site and add security.

Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
 

What was the outcome of the hand!!!!!!!!!!

Re: hit two pair turn check raise super DEEP
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
10/20 NL
villain is tough and relative tight, a little tricky
hero has been playing LAG
Effective stacks are 7K

2 limps, villain in CO makes it 120, hero calls in BB with 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 1 caller

Flop:
A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero bets 200, villain raises to 800, Hero calls
Turn:
8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero checks, Villain bets 1400, Hero raises to 3K, villain goes all in, hero calls

thoughts on all streets appreciated. do you like my line on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

best play on flop is min cr /fold. as played gl catching up w/ his set of aces..

[/ QUOTE ]

since the thread got really sidetracked I think this post got overlooked. Why would you play the flop that way? that's one of the most random lines I have seen in awhile.

It might be pretty sick though, this deep. If he has a set he'll tell you right on the flop when he reraises and if he just calls his hand is pretty well-defined as AK or AQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

didnt think that part was a serious response, but if it is, then umm, i dont agree.

you cminr a tough player on A98ssx and he only 3bet's a set??? and onlyAK/AQ calls the flop minrz? this reasoning is just bizarre and not true. esp given its 350bb's deep.