Button steal checkup
 

Live mid-limit game. You're on the button, and the SB is a tight aggressive pro. He respects your play -- including your ability to lay down and your ability to read hands.

Folded to you, and you raise Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB thinks for a moment and calls. BB folds.

Flop comes A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB checks, you bet, and SB check-raises.

What's your line now? What are the benefits of 3-betting here? If you do 3-bet, do you take a free turn card? Do you bet the turn and take a free showdown? What if your 3-bet gets 4-bet? If you just call, are you raising a diamond turn on a semibluff? If you don't improve, are you calling the turn and folding the river? Calling down? How bad is folding the flop?

Re: Button steal checkup
 

I think just calling the flop and turn is your best action and then revaluate river. Most pros will give up on the river if they respect your play and you have called the turn. Most tight aggressive pros would 3 bet an A preflop but any two suited face cards is the most likely hand here, along with a small pocket pair (22-55).

Re: Button steal checkup
 

Call, call turn, river depends.

Re: Button steal checkup
 

You left out some vital pieces of info:
What kind of player is BB?
Is CCing a standard move by SB in this spot?

Re: Button steal checkup
 

[ QUOTE ]
You left out some vital pieces of info:
What kind of player is BB?

[/ QUOTE ]

I know what you are getting at here, but I don't think it's that important to be honest.

[ QUOTE ]
Is CCing a standard move by SB in this spot?

[/ QUOTE ]

I tight aggressive pro -- I don't see how it could be...

Re: Button steal checkup
 

I'd probably just call down, occasionally I'd fold the river if I really thought villain was confident.

Re: Button steal checkup
 

I think you are cooked here most of the time, but you have to call the flop check-raise since you are getting 8:1 with a likely 5-outer plus a BDFD.

If the turn is a blank, I think it's close between calling and folding. I'd just call a diamond turn, and raise if we make trips/two pair. I think semi-bluffing a diamond turn is a mistake since it'd be pretty obvious what we are doing, and SB is only going to fold hands that we beat already (I'm seriously discounting the chance that he has JJ-KK since he didn't 3-bet PF).

If we call a blank turn, I think it's time to fold to a bet on the river - I have a hard time seeing SB firing three barrels against us on this board.

SB's flat-call PF means he's more likely to have a big A rather than a PP, since he'd want to try and get BB out with most PPs. He should know that your range is heavily weighted towards any A when you make the steal raise, just based on combinations alone.

Re: Button steal checkup
 

Who is the sb exactly?

Against random tight nobody that plays bad I call and fold turn. Against tough player I do a lot of different things on the flop and turn. However most the good people I play with don't respect my ability to lay down hands.

Re: Button steal checkup
 

[ QUOTE ]
Live mid-limit game. You're on the button, and the SB is a tight aggressive pro. He respects your play -- including your ability to lay down and your ability to read hands.

Folded to you, and you raise Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB thinks for a moment and calls. BB folds.

Flop comes A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB checks, you bet, and SB check-raises.

What's your line now? What are the benefits of 3-betting here? If you do 3-bet, do you take a free turn card? Do you bet the turn and take a free showdown? What if your 3-bet gets 4-bet? If you just call, are you raising a diamond turn on a semibluff? If you don't improve, are you calling the turn and folding the river? Calling down? How bad is folding the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

SB is a tight aggressive pro? Only hands he should flat call a single late position raise from the SB are AA and KK. Doesn't look good. Even hands like QJ suited make more from the dead money overlay of the BB than they gain by having a third player.

I call the flop and fold unimproved on turn. If the very same hand had the BB for the opponent I'd 3 bet the flop, take the free turn, and call the river unimproved unless a King or Jack showed up. This is also how I'd play it against a SB who you don't believe uses Stox type preflop strategy.

Re: Button steal checkup
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You left out some vital pieces of info:
What kind of player is BB?

[/ QUOTE ]

I know what you are getting at here, but I don't think it's that important to be honest.

[ QUOTE ]
Is CCing a standard move by SB in this spot?

[/ QUOTE ]

I tight aggressive pro -- I don't see how it could be...

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think I'm asking anything clever here. Villains range could be relatively wide or not wide given these conditions. Some villains who play well postflop will call a wide range here. No need to tell me not to ask.

See what I did there?

Re: Button steal checkup
 

[ QUOTE ]


I don't think I'm asking anything clever here. Villains range could be relatively wide or not wide given these conditions. Some villains who play well postflop will call a wide range here. No need to tell me not to ask.

See what I did there?

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? I guess I don't. I wasn't telling you not to do anything... just pointing out that the information wasn't really absent.

Sure, some good players are looser in SB than others, but it's still a fairly safe assumption that a tight aggressive pro isn't making a habit out of CCing in that spot. Also, if joker had a read that specific -- and in live play you usually don't -- he probably would have included it.

Re: Button steal checkup
 

I didn't have much more of a read than this... I've played with the guy before (won't say his name in case he lurks here); he's older than us (40s) and has a stud background, but has made his living at holdem in recent years.

His hesitation before calling the raise indicated to me that a) he's not used to just calling from the SB in button-steal situations; b) he has a hand that might call for 3-betting and is considering a deceptive line for some reason; c) has a hand that he usually folds but is considering getting involved to see what happens; d) etc. etc.

Re: Button steal checkup
 

jesus you should have said he was old. call and fold turn ui

Re: Button steal checkup
 

[ QUOTE ]
jesus you should have said he was old. call and fold turn ui

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my live game is a little rust but wouldn't this depend on if pj is a young whipper snapper or not?

Re: Button steal checkup
 

id call flop and 2 bet a diamond turn. also fold on turn unless u improve.

Re: Button steal checkup
 

[ QUOTE ]
jesus you should have said he was old. call and fold turn ui

[/ QUOTE ]
Hey! I resemble that remark.

Re: Button steal checkup
 

[ QUOTE ]
What's your line now? What are the benefits of 3-betting here? If you do 3-bet, do you take a free turn card? Do you bet the turn and take a free showdown? What if your 3-bet gets 4-bet? If you just call, are you raising a diamond turn on a semibluff? If you don't improve, are you calling the turn and folding the river? Calling down? How bad is folding the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, that's a lot of questions. I'm not smart enough to tackle all of them, but fwiw it seems like any plan that involves 3-betting the flop or semi-bluffing could be considered "getting out of line" (not that there's anything wrong with that [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]).

Against his range in this spot, we're behind a large % of the time. I think calling the flop and folding the turn unimproved is ok. If he fires the river and you haven't made 2 pair, trips, a straight, or a flush, fold.

Re: Button steal checkup
 

[ QUOTE ]
jesus you should have said he was old. call and fold turn ui

[/ QUOTE ]

actually you should say he has a stud background. call and fold turn ui.

Re: Button steal checkup
 

If this old guy is making his living at holdem, then he would know to 3 bet a big A preflop. This sounds like its a small suited ace and he figured it was too good to throw away on button steal but did not want to 3 bet. Call flop and fold unimproved turn.