overbet pushes into small pots early in low buy in tournies
 

Lately in low buy in MTTs I have taken to pushing my big hands preflop into small pots in the early stages...based on results I think it creates the most value and kills any reverse implied odds...I consistanly get called light by weak aces and suited connectors who are either just terrible at poker or non belivers...Usually I don't want to put too many chips at risk early so this strategy while seeming psychotic seems to work...also creates the crazy image with little risk...

examples are if I have AK suited or QQ in MP...3X raise and call I usually just push 1500 into 150 pot...get some muttering table comments but at the same time they don't know what to make of it...

Any thoughts?

Re: overbet pushes into small pots early in low buy in tournies
 

if you have a set then yes call or else fold.
if the board is all small cards and you bet and someone push then its hard to call even when you know that people get crazy with top pair. or an over card like 99

Re: overbet pushes into small pots early in low buy in tournies
 

[ QUOTE ]
if you have a set then yes call or else fold.
if the board is all small cards and you bet and someone push then its hard to call even when you know that people get crazy with top pair. or an over card like 99

[/ QUOTE ]

huh? Is this in the right post kimos? I'm tlking about preflop pushing

Re: overbet pushes into small pots early in low buy in tournies
 

Can often work in the early stages of $3r - likely to get several callers.

I prefer raising to say 200 (10xBB) to get one caller. Then milk the pot pre-flop. Not sure if complete pushing is best value if you only get 3xBB in pot pf. If they are so loose they will call a lot more pf.

Re: overbet pushes into small pots early in low buy in tournies
 

[ QUOTE ]
Can often work in the early stages of $3r - likely to get several callers.

I prefer raising to say 200 (10xBB) to get one caller. Then milk the pot pre-flop. Not sure if complete pushing is best value if you only get 3xBB in pot pf. If they are so loose they will call a lot more pf.

[/ QUOTE ]

talking about non rebuys...problem is at the begiining a lot of bad players will call 10X and you will have a 4 or 5 way pot...if only one player calls your push ight I think we are better off than playing a strong hand multiway vs good knows what...the rebuy is a different animal because you can try to bt less to induce a push into you

Re: overbet pushes into small pots early in low buy in tournies
 

im sorry, i thought u were talking after the flop.
i dont understand your example... if you are in MP with AK or QQ and there is a raise and a call then i think pushing here is the right play with QQ. with AK i 3bet

Re: overbet pushes into small pots early in low buy in tournies
 

Still think bigger pf raise is the way to go. If I raise to 10xBB pf early in freezeout then very rarely will you get a big multiway pot.

Even 2 callers ain't bad coz you push flop and will 80% time get 1 caller here with weaker hand. This way you'll get a lot more value in the long run because you aren't exclusively relying on an all-in call to get chips whilst still keeping odds massively in your favour.

Re: overbet pushes into small pots early in low buy in tournies
 

I understand that if someone is already raising then yeah certainly push back.

I'm talking more generally and including you being the first to raise. Don't always feel you can massively overbet into a small pot and get value. Of course you can when there has been a raiser and a caller previously. This is very simple.

Re: overbet pushes into small pots early in low buy in tournies
 

actually with better players I would flat call with QQ this deep...pushing into a 150 pot for 1500 isnt my style but that's the whole point...here's an example where it backfired...very early in $12 turbo...note still only a minor backfire cause I won't love too many flops:

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t10/t20
9 players

UTG: t1380
UTG+1: t1500
Hero: t1500
MP2: t1500
MP3: t1500
CO: t960
Button: t1520
SB: t2200
BB: t1440

Pre-flop: (9 players)
Hero is MP1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG calls t20
UTG+1 calls t20
Hero raises all-in t1500
8 folds
Uncalled bets: t1480 returned to Hero.

Final pot: t90

Re: overbet pushes into small pots early in low buy in tournies
 

[ QUOTE ]
actually with better players I would flat call with QQ this deep...pushing into a 150 pot for 1500 isnt my style but that's the whole point...here's an example where it backfired...very early in $12 turbo...note still only a minor backfire cause I won't love too many flops:

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t10/t20
9 players

UTG: t1380
UTG+1: t1500
Hero: t1500
MP2: t1500
MP3: t1500
CO: t960
Button: t1520
SB: t2200
BB: t1440

Pre-flop: (9 players)
Hero is MP1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG calls t20
UTG+1 calls t20
Hero raises all-in t1500
8 folds
Uncalled bets: t1480 returned to Hero.

Final pot: t90

[/ QUOTE ]

This is now a completely different situation and yes overbetting will get you nothing but a few snide comments or a snap call from a stronger hand.

Re: overbet pushes into small pots early in low buy in tournies
 

IMO, I really don't like raising 10xBB because most players won't pay you off on your premium hands and when they do come in you will often be way behind or almost 50/50 PF. Most of the time the only hands that will come in will have you in trouble and drawing thin.

I try to standardize my inital raises and keep them all within 2.5-5x the BB so you don't give away the strength of your hand. I just don't see the point of building a huge pot PF unless you have some early limpers and possibly a raise in front of you.

For the times you get the donks to call you after raising so big you will occassionly run into AA or KK that will crush you. What do you do when someone comes back at you AI for your whole stack early in the tournament?

Re: overbet pushes into small pots early in low buy in tournies
 

[ QUOTE ]
IMO, I really don't like raising 10xBB because most players won't pay you off on your premium hands and when they do come in you will often be way behind or almost 50/50 PF. Most of the time the only hands that will come in will have you in trouble and drawing thin.

I try to standardize my inital raises and keep them all within 2.5-5x the BB so you don't give away the strength of your hand. I just don't see the point of building a huge pot PF unless you have some early limpers and possibly a raise in front of you.

For the times you get the donks to call you after raising so big you will occassionly run into AA or KK that will crush you. What do you do when someone comes back at you AI for your whole stack early in the tournament?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm only talking of doing this with QQ+ and AKs (maybe) in low-limit donkfests. Thats where you'll get paid. You won't be behind.

Re: overbet pushes into small pots early in low buy in tournies
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
IMO, I really don't like raising 10xBB because most players won't pay you off on your premium hands and when they do come in you will often be way behind or almost 50/50 PF. Most of the time the only hands that will come in will have you in trouble and drawing thin.

I try to standardize my inital raises and keep them all within 2.5-5x the BB so you don't give away the strength of your hand. I just don't see the point of building a huge pot PF unless you have some early limpers and possibly a raise in front of you.

For the times you get the donks to call you after raising so big you will occassionly run into AA or KK that will crush you. What do you do when someone comes back at you AI for your whole stack early in the tournament?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm only talking of doing this with QQ+ and AKs (maybe) in low-limit donkfests. Thats where you'll get paid. You won't be behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes...probably throw JJ in during a low limit turbo but 1010 and AQ will be played like real poker

Re: overbet pushes into small pots early in low buy in tournies
 

I also never open raise 10x except once in a while if it's in the first hour of a rebuy. But we digress...

In reference to OP, I find this tool most valuable against the 4xbb raise. I think this is one of the most reliable tells that you can get online. It happens when the standard raise at your table has been 2.5-3xBB and suddenly someone brings in for 4xBB. This almost always is the villian announcing that he will not fold pre (usually with a mid pair or medium ace) and I love to shove with AK and QQ+ here. I'd say this is around 75% reliable in ssmtts.

Re: overbet pushes into small pots early in low buy in tournies
 

I change my mind, I am a big fan of the 10xBB open. Feel free to turn your cards face up when playing 150 bb deep.
Bond got a kick out of this hand.

Poker Stars, $50 + $5 NL Hold'em Tournament, 10/20 Blinds, 9 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

Hero (UTG+1): 3,000
UTG+2: 2,680
MP1: 6,450
MP2: 6,130
CO: 3,050
BTN: 2,940
SB: 2,860
BB: 2,920
UTG: 3,000

Pre-Flop: (30) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG+1)
<font color="red">UTG raises to 200</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to 3,000 and is All-In</font>, 7 folds, UTG calls 2,800 and is All-In

Flop: (6,030) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Turn: (6,030) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: (6,030) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: 6,030 Pot
Hero showed A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (a full house, Aces full of Sixes) and WON 6,030 (+3,030 NET)
UTG showed Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (two pair, Queens and Sixes) and LOST (-3,000 NET)

Re: overbet pushes into small pots early in low buy in tournies
 

love it...see I'm a friggin genius! nh....seriously if goes right to Sklansky's determination of if there is a small chance they may call it may be +EV to push

Re: overbet pushes into small pots early in low buy in tournies
 

I thought he was like 90% to call and 95% to have JJ QQ or AK.

Re: overbet pushes into small pots early in low buy in tournies
 

[ QUOTE ]
I change my mind, I am a big fan of the 10xBB open. Feel free to turn your cards face up when playing 150 bb deep.
Bond got a kick out of this hand.

Poker Stars, $50 + $5 NL Hold'em Tournament, 10/20 Blinds, 9 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

Hero (UTG+1): 3,000
UTG+2: 2,680
MP1: 6,450
MP2: 6,130
CO: 3,050
BTN: 2,940
SB: 2,860
BB: 2,920
UTG: 3,000

Pre-Flop: (30) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG+1)
<font color="red">UTG raises to 200</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to 3,000 and is All-In</font>, 7 folds, UTG calls 2,800 and is All-In

Flop: (6,030) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Turn: (6,030) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: (6,030) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: 6,030 Pot
Hero showed A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (a full house, Aces full of Sixes) and WON 6,030 (+3,030 NET)
UTG showed Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (two pair, Queens and Sixes) and LOST (-3,000 NET)

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this person with QQ not always going to broke here...or at least 90% of the time?

This is an extreme example where standard raising and reraising would have led to the same thing anyway.

In ssmtt's ($1- $5 and low rebuys) you can raise pf 10xBB early on almost always and get callers. This makes it massively +EV. I have stated that in higher stakes this isn't the case as players will read you a mile off. As per Brandi's post.

Re: overbet pushes into small pots early in low buy in tournies
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I change my mind, I am a big fan of the 10xBB open. Feel free to turn your cards face up when playing 150 bb deep.
Bond got a kick out of this hand.

Poker Stars, $50 + $5 NL Hold'em Tournament, 10/20 Blinds, 9 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

Hero (UTG+1): 3,000
UTG+2: 2,680
MP1: 6,450
MP2: 6,130
CO: 3,050
BTN: 2,940
SB: 2,860
BB: 2,920
UTG: 3,000

Pre-Flop: (30) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG+1)
<font color="red">UTG raises to 200</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to 3,000 and is All-In</font>, 7 folds, UTG calls 2,800 and is All-In

Flop: (6,030) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Turn: (6,030) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

River: (6,030) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: 6,030 Pot
Hero showed A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (a full house, Aces full of Sixes) and WON 6,030 (+3,030 NET)
UTG showed Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (two pair, Queens and Sixes) and LOST (-3,000 NET)

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this person with QQ not always going to broke here...or at least 90% of the time?

This is an extreme example where standard raising and reraising would have led to the same thing anyway.

In ssmtt's ($1- $5 and low rebuys) you can raise pf 10xBB early on almost always and get callers. This makes it massively +EV. I have stated that in higher stakes this isn't the case as players will read you a mile off. As per Brandi's post.

[/ QUOTE ]

odds are against a good player stacking off post flop but preflop they wll be vey suspicious and decide no way Brandi is doing with AA...not to be used always but damn nice when it works...also raising 10X and getting multiple callers is not +EV...it sucks and you may get 4 callers on a 10X raise a low limits

Re: overbet pushes into small pots early in low buy in tournies
 

You should be able to get away from QQ this deep.
Edited for londwindedness

Re: overbet pushes into small pots early in low buy in tournies
 

Maybe in a $50, but not much less than that!

-ZEN

Re: overbet pushes into small pots early in low buy in tournies
 

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe in a $50, but not much less than that!

-ZEN

[/ QUOTE ]Meh, I've folded QQ pre in a $6.5 turbo sng before.

Re: overbet pushes into small pots early in low buy in tournies
 

I actually have played big hands this way early on as well. Especially in some of the bigger tournaments where the fields drop at such a fast rate, like the Sunday 100K or any $5-$20 tourney with a field over 2,000. It seems players are always looking to gamble early on, they're looking at the short-term of things. If I do push, I'll usually try to limit it to TT+ AK+ (not quite crazy about pushing with AK early on but if I'm multi-tabling maybe). Keep in mind this will usually only work once or twice.

Re: overbet pushes into small pots early in low buy in tournies
 

yes but you can't make plays based on good players exclusivley

Re: overbet pushes into small pots early in low buy in tournies
 

This is a very, very important point!

Your opponents are DUMB, or to be kind, they don't
think like you (we) do.

Remember back when you first started playing and you
saw AJ UTG "ZOMGABIGACEIRAISEHUGEYAAAAAA"

If I have even the slightest hint an opponent will
be suspicious of large or inappropriate bets, then
I'll risk just winning a tiny pot for the 1-5 chance
he calls.

-ZEN

Re: overbet pushes into small pots early in low buy in tournies
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is a very, very important point!

Your opponents are DUMB, or to be kind, they don't
think like you (we) do.

Remember back when you first started playing and you
saw AJ UTG "ZOMGABIGACEIRAISEHUGEYAAAAAA"

If I have even the slightest hint an opponent will
be suspicious of large or inappropriate bets, then
I'll risk just winning a tiny pot for the 1-5 chance
he calls.

-ZEN

[/ QUOTE ]

wait...AJ is not the nuts????!! I'm sure I read in a book somewhere I am supposed to go all the way with it

Re: overbet pushes into small pots early in low buy in tournies
 

pssssh, I open shove AJ at lease twice a day.

Re: overbet pushes into small pots early in low buy in tournies
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is a very, very important point!

Your opponents are DUMB, or to be kind, they don't
think like you (we) do.

Remember back when you first started playing and you
saw AJ UTG "ZOMGABIGACEIRAISEHUGEYAAAAAA"

If I have even the slightest hint an opponent will
be suspicious of large or inappropriate bets, then
I'll risk just winning a tiny pot for the 1-5 chance
he calls.

-ZEN

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure I understand your point. Please can you explain this again for the slow kid at the back? [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: overbet pushes into small pots early in low buy in tournies
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is a very, very important point!

Your opponents are DUMB, or to be kind, they don't
think like you (we) do.

Remember back when you first started playing and you
saw AJ UTG "ZOMGABIGACEIRAISEHUGEYAAAAAA"

If I have even the slightest hint an opponent will
be suspicious of large or inappropriate bets, then
I'll risk just winning a tiny pot for the 1-5 chance
he calls.

-ZEN

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: overbet pushes into small pots early in low buy in tournies
 

[ QUOTE ]
pssssh, I open shove AJ at lease twice a day.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol...at level 1? [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: overbet pushes into small pots early in low buy in tournies
 

in rebuys, yes

Re: overbet pushes into small pots early in low buy in tournies
 

This might be +ev but I doubt it is optimal