i\'m probably being really nitty about value here but....5-10nl help
 

background:

ive been 3betting this particular villain on a few tables quite a lot in the last 10 mins (he was 17/13 at time of this hand) and he has laid down them all down. He'll think I'm generally aggressive and capable of trying to mess with his head.
I've been generally getting the better of him postflop, but have had the better of the cards as well.

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6 players, seat 3 is the button

Seat 1: CO ($1,434.97)
Seat 3: BTN ($1,033.00)
Seat 5: SB ($160.00)
Seat 6: <font color="#C80000">HERO</font> ($1,221.13)
Seat 8: UTG ($369.00)
Seat 10: UTG+1 ($1,109.00)

SB posts small blind, $5.00
<font color="#C80000">HERO</font> posts big blind, $10.00

Dealing to <font color="#C80000">HERO</font>:
A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img],Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

UTG folds
UTG+1 folds
CO raises to $35
BTN calls
SB folds
<font color="#C80000">HERO</font> raises to $210
CO calls
BTN folds

Dealing flop: (Pot is $460.00)
9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

<font color="#C80000">HERO</font> checks
CO checks

Dealing turn: (Pot is $460.00)
4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

<font color="#C80000">HERO</font> bets $400
CO calls

Dealing river: (Pot is $1,260.00)
T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

is this an autoshove for $611 or is $300 better?

just given his hand range it is AT, AJ, AQ (AK he would of shoved turn or 4bet pf i think), TT-KK

if i shove i think he only calls and i win with AJ, whereas if i bet $300 or so it may get a call by his hand range.

he may though have a lot of weaker suited aces, so i figured shove was best.

i know this is very basic, just wondering what your thoughts were.

btw turn bet was big to rep a bluff. i often make this sized bets as bluffs or with good hands. i figured he would call with Ax, TT+ maybe even 66+


also i think if he calls $300 it will furthur tilt him vs me, which is always good [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: i\'m probably being really nitty about value here but....5-10nl hel
 

Why not just bet the flop since your perceived 3-betting range is pretty wide?

Re: i\'m probably being really nitty about value here but....5-10nl hel
 

what's up with the giant 3bet pf?
i prolly just shove the river here...you only have 1/2 pot left. if he's calling 300 he's probably gonna call 600

Re: i\'m probably being really nitty about value here but....5-10nl hel
 

i felt i only needed to bet 2 streets. maybe betting flop and river is a wiser play here, in fact yes it probably is, but i guess i felt despite having a pretty wide 3bet range he could easily fold on the flop.

maybe i was getting greedy for picking up one bet rather than being riskier and going to win both bets (flop and river) - i knew he'd call a turn bet but maybe not a river bet, but then he is more likely to call river if he has me go bet-check than check-bet

as for giant 3bet pf, it is pretty chunky, but often it's just how the game is flowing. i figured i was getting called pretty loose, and would rather take it down pf with AQ oop so make it pretty chunky.

i just feel with shoving it screams out i have the A whereas betting $300, nobody likes to call $400 on the turn and then fold $300 on the river getting 5:1 vs a guy who has been pissing you off in recent hands.

Re: i\'m probably being really nitty about value here but....5-10nl hel
 

Why such a huge 3bet?

Re: i\'m probably being really nitty about value here but....5-10nl hel
 

Oh, the 3bet sucks. If anything, bet small because hes calling light and will look you up with a lot of 2nd best hands. You're helping him to play more correctly imo

Re: i\'m probably being really nitty about value here but....5-10nl hel
 

arturius, kinda agree, but then when i want to bluff in later hands it makes it harder if ive been betting small for value imo.

Re: i\'m probably being really nitty about value here but....5-10nl hel
 

so preflop was intentional???

Re: i\'m probably being really nitty about value here but....5-10nl hel
 

i dont that pf is bad really. my image is that i will make these 3bets pretty wide so ill get called by a larger range. so to get them to fold i need to raise more.

imo i dont want a caller here with AQ oop, but it is a very good hand as a backup in case i see a flop.

for him its $175 into a pot of $285 when he has position vs a player with a wideish 3betting and squeezing range.

meh, maybe it is a leak, but i think much less and im getting called.

Re: i\'m probably being really nitty about value here but....5-10nl hel
 

you are too worried about not wanting a call OOP, that you are making all worse hands fold and better hands stay in. Also, your opponents will prob react to your bets in more of a push/fold manner instead of seeing flops. AQo isnt good enough to call AI most likely but by raising 20% of your stack and folding is pretty expensive when you could have raised to 130 or so instead.

Re: i\'m probably being really nitty about value here but....5-10nl hel
 

[ QUOTE ]
you are too worried about not wanting a call OOP, that you are making all worse hands fold and better hands stay in. Also, your opponents will prob react to your bets in more of a push/fold manner instead of seeing flops. AQo isnt good enough to call AI most likely but by raising 20% of your stack and folding is pretty expensive when you could have raised to 130 or so instead.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is pretty much spot on. I'd definitely bet the flop too, as played I think I'd shove cos the pot is so large I think the range of hands that calls 300 but folds to a shove is minimal

Re: i\'m probably being really nitty about value here but....5-10nl hel
 

wow

Re: i\'m probably being really nitty about value here but....5-10nl hel
 

i agree i should bet flop with plan to check turn and push river.

i dont see what is that bad about preflop though, i should be worried about getting a caller pf with AQ oop, becuase a lot of the time postflop ill be completely clueless to where i am, which i don't like in a 3bet pot. i want to take it down pf, with AQ as a backup if i do get a caller(s).

fionnmac, wow in what sense?

Re: i\'m probably being really nitty about value here but....5-10nl hel
 

yeh sorry if that was a little condescending, i just assumed pf was a misclick when i read OP and then found you defending it

Re: i\'m probably being really nitty about value here but....5-10nl hel
 

preflop is too small, make it like $315

Re: i\'m probably being really nitty about value here but....5-10nl hel
 

[ QUOTE ]
preflop is too small, make it like $315

[/ QUOTE ]
Awesome

Re: i\'m probably being really nitty about value here but....5-10nl hel
 

no worries fionn, just was wondering.

i just think oop and the fact that ive been 3betting quite a lot recently means i need to make it a pretty big reraise given i want them both to fold.

if was button and was 3betting someone who had raised to $35 then i'd make it $130 or so, given there is another $35 in the pot i don't think $165 is therefore unreasonable, then including that im oop i'd add on say another $20 up to $185, then as well as the fact im 3betting wide say then add on another $20, and that's up to $205.

probably like many of these posts when almost everyone disagrees with me ill look back in months to come and think 'yep i was wrong' but as of now i think it makes sense.

Re: i\'m probably being really nitty about value here but....5-10nl hel
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
preflop is too small, make it like $315

[/ QUOTE ]
Awesome

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

Re: i\'m probably being really nitty about value here but....5-10nl hel
 

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/f...kbox1/LMAO.jpg

Re: i\'m probably being really nitty about value here but....5-10nl hel
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
preflop is too small, make it like $315

[/ QUOTE ]
Awesome

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: i\'m probably being really nitty about value here but....5-10nl hel
 

[ QUOTE ]
probably like many of these posts when almost everyone disagrees with me ill look back in months to come and think 'yep i was wrong' but as of now i think it makes sense.

[/ QUOTE ]

also awesome

Re: i\'m probably being really nitty about value here but....5-10nl hel
 

[ QUOTE ]

if was button and was 3betting someone who had raised to $35 then i'd make it $130 or so, given there is another $35 in the pot i don't think $165 is therefore unreasonable, then including that im oop i'd add on say another $20 up to $185, then as well as the fact im 3betting wide say then add on another $20, and that's up to $205.


[/ QUOTE ]

If any of you have ever seen the Mr Bean episode where he's in the exam and his neighbour takes out a pen, then Mr Bean has to out-do him so he takes out 2 pens...neighbour takes out 3 pens then Mr Bean takes out 3..then 6..then 10...then about 200 lol. Unfortunately I doubt any Americans have seen this

Not in any way trying to be snide or rude btw, just the way you wrote it seems funny.

Re: i\'m probably being really nitty about value here but....5-10nl hel
 

John Kane,
You are advocating 3betting huge so he doesn't call wide... but the hands he call are the hands that you are ahead of. So you are 3betting huge so he can never fold AK or JJ but will always fold AJ and stuff.

Re: i\'m probably being really nitty about value here but....5-10nl hel
 

Why did you lie about not being john kane on 2+2 at the tables? lolololol

Re: i\'m probably being really nitty about value here but....5-10nl hel
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why did you lie about not being john kane on 2+2 at the tables? lolololol

[/ QUOTE ]

If you were john kane wouldn't you also lie?

Re: i\'m probably being really nitty about value here but....5-10nl hel
 

Hate the 3 bet size since he's probably never giving you action with a worse hand. As played, river is the easiest shove ever.

Re: i\'m probably being really nitty about value here but....5-10nl help
 

I'd say you're rele only getting called by something that chops or is better. I'd check and make a decision. BTW ur reraise size is TERRIBLE preflop. You're telegraphing your hand, as well as with flop check IMO. Make it $125-$135 preflop and bet flop for 2/3 pot.

Re: i\'m probably being really nitty about value here but....5-10nl help
 

minbet river/min 3bet over raise/fold to push

Re: i\'m probably being really nitty about value here but....5-10nl hel
 

hm, you're concept of poker is a little bit skewed. if you want him to fold, why not do this with 38o. Like people said, you're bloating the pot when he has a better hand and folding out worse.

Re: i\'m probably being really nitty about value here but....5-10nl hel
 

The whole reason you are three betting here is due to your aggressive image. How is checking this flop congruent with that at all?

edit - 3bet should be like 140-150 imo

Re: i\'m probably being really nitty about value here but....5-10nl hel
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why did you lie about not being john kane on 2+2 at the tables? lolololol

[/ QUOTE ]

lols. please don't let anyone know my screenname, otherwise everyone will sit out when i sit down at the tables cos they'll know they up against the zeus of poker lols.

[ QUOTE ]
Hate the 3 bet size since he's probably never giving you action with a worse hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly what i want. AQ is just a backup.

[ QUOTE ]
if you want him to fold, why not do this with 38o.

[/ QUOTE ]

i do but i already had a laggy image so need a back up such as AQ in case i get called.

[ QUOTE ]
How is checking this flop congruent with that at all?

[/ QUOTE ]

agreed i shoulda bet the flop then checked turn so his calling likelyhood was greater on the river. i just got kinda greedy for a greater chance of a smaller profit as im still adjusting a bit to these stakes.

sorry my reply is probs a bit lazier than i usually try when people reply to my posts, just v tired.

thanks for all the help. i know ill look back and realise i was wrong, just a learning road ive got to go on.