help settle debate on timing tells
 

ok so this hand just happened and was talking about it with someone

No-Limit Hold'em, $10 BB (2 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($2301.91)
Button ($2225)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $35</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $120</font>, Button calls $85.

Flop: ($240) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $200</font>, Button calls $200.

Turn: ($640) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $520</font>, Button calls $520.

River: ($1680) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets 1461.91 </font>

they thought a while before calling turn. i pushed because i figured this mean they didnt really like their hand (like maybe they had 68 and were counting odds?). on the other hand, when a bet is on someone people usually say the person is weighing his options of calling vs raising, which would mean the person probably has a strong hand, i would think.

the opponent wasn't spectacular or anything, so no idea if he is trying to level me with time use.

any thoughts on bluffing by using timing tells?? ty

Re: help settle debate on timing tells
 

as a general rule, quick calls from a villain mean they want to get to showdown, or free card.

I'm much more apt to dbl barrel a turn, or 3rd barrel if I'm quick called.

If he takes his time, I generally think he has a strong hand and is thinking of best way to get value, or what have you...before he makes his action.

Of course, eventual reads and [censored] change this some...

but that's my general rule of hu. Quick call = weak hand, drawing hand, wants free showdown. Delay call = strongish hand, made hand, etc.

I've played a lot of HU, but this last summer I've really noticed this more/payed more attention to... and put in the most amount of hands I have at hu play, near 160k.

Re: help settle debate on timing tells
 

I wouldnt put too much stock into timing tells. Its too easy for people to be in other hands on other tables, getting the doorbell, going to the bathroom etc. Although Id agree that generally a quick call is weaker than if he took his time then called. Not a fan of your riverplay btw. Expect to get looked up by KQ or something similiar. The double call shows to me that his hand has good showdown value because its rare for him to show up with a draw here. I think its very optimistic to hope he has 68 here.

Re: help settle debate on timing tells
 

Reversed timing tells are so undervalued IMO. I started to think about this some year ago and feel I have had great success using it. When I take a line that screams value and still get called I always think if I might have messed up the timing of my bets, obviously if I was looking for a fold. I used to feel it was very difficult to think about my own timing tells while playing but I worked on it and feel it makes a difference.

/Kex

Re: help settle debate on timing tells
 

Who cares. The river is a bad card for you to bluff after him calling that turn bet.

Re: help settle debate on timing tells
 

[ QUOTE ]
Who cares. The river is a bad card for you to bluff after him calling that turn bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
yea was hoping he realized it was a bad card to bluff so he would think i couldnt be bluffing

Re: help settle debate on timing tells
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Who cares. The river is a bad card for you to bluff after him calling that turn bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
yea was hoping he realized it was a bad card to bluff so he would think i couldnt be bluffing

[/ QUOTE ]
Him folding KQ or better with your sexy image?

Good luck [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: help settle debate on timing tells
 

put him on 68 and check call his ass.

Re: help settle debate on timing tells
 

[ QUOTE ]
put him on 68 and check call his ass.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL such a funny post for a gp hero thread

Re: help settle debate on timing tells
 

timing tells' meaning and reliability vary with each person, and since you're the one playing the match, you're gonna have to interpret his. trust yourself and you'll be fine.

Re: help settle debate on timing tells
 

[ QUOTE ]
put him on 68 and check call his ass.

[/ QUOTE ]
i like

Re: help settle debate on timing tells
 

I'm not sure about NL as I have less experience there but in LHE a rapid call tends to be a sign of weakness - the caller is consciously or unconsciously trying to make you think bluffing the next street is hopeless.

Re: help settle debate on timing tells
 

[ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure about NL as I have less experience there but in LHE a rapid call tends to be a sign of weakness - the caller is consciously or unconsciously trying to make you think bluffing the next street is hopeless.

[/ QUOTE ]

shh

Re: help settle debate on timing tells
 

[ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure about NL as I have less experience there but in LHE a rapid call tends to be a sign of weakness - the caller is consciously or unconsciously trying to make you think bluffing the next street is hopeless.

[/ QUOTE ]

in lhe, bluffing the next street is hopeless

Re: help settle debate on timing tells
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure about NL as I have less experience there but in LHE a rapid call tends to be a sign of weakness - the caller is consciously or unconsciously trying to make you think bluffing the next street is hopeless.

[/ QUOTE ]

in lhe, bluffing the next street is hopeless

[/ QUOTE ]
How did you think the word "value-bluff" exists [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: help settle debate on timing tells
 

There really isn't much to debate; timing tells are definitely viable, although highly subjective and player-dependent. In this specific case, I think RR'd pots throw off the standard timing tells dynamic for most players, as they often think more, hollywood more, etc, so I don't think your timing read adds much to your bluff value, especially barring significant history with the player.

Re: help settle debate on timing tells
 

I definitely think its a mistake to assume that he had a weak hand because he took a while. He might have been trying to figure out how to get the most value from his monster..

Re: help settle debate on timing tells
 

[ QUOTE ]
There really isn't much to debate; timing tells are definitely viable, although highly subjective and player-dependent.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is spot on. there are tons of players who snap call when theyre on a weak made hand/drawing, and tons of players who do the same with the nuts (nuts meaning they fully intend to call the next street(s))

Re: help settle debate on timing tells
 

ok so no wonder he had 777

Re: help settle debate on timing tells
 

[ QUOTE ]
as a general rule, quick calls from a villain mean they want to get to showdown, or free card.

I'm much more apt to dbl barrel a turn, or 3rd barrel if I'm quick called.

If he takes his time, I generally think he has a strong hand and is thinking of best way to get value, or what have you...before he makes his action.

Of course, eventual reads and [censored] change this some...

but that's my general rule of hu. Quick call = weak hand, drawing hand, wants free showdown. Delay call = strongish hand, made hand, etc.

I've played a lot of HU, but this last summer I've really noticed this more/payed more attention to... and put in the most amount of hands I have at hu play, near 160k.

[/ QUOTE ]

I definitely agree. Quick calls from an opponent generally mean they're hoping to slow the bettor down and get to showdown as cheap as possible imo.

Re: help settle debate on timing tells
 

generally i pay attention to timing tells against weak to average players, and try to avoid them against good to very good players. i know when i play i do random pauses or quick actions, and i'm sure lots of other HSNL players do as well.

that said, if this is an averageish player, then i have a few points. you probably don't need to be making 150bb+ bluffs against mediocre competition to win. yeah, the bet might have positive expectation, but playing this type of style when you don't need to to beat a player is one of the reasons some HU players go crazy. (sorry, off topic)

against weaker to average players, pauses usually mean they are considering a number of options. the quick call is almost always a mediocre hand where as the pause really isn't a reliable indicator except for that they probably don't have a very mediocre 2nd or 3rd pair type hand, because they would have likely folded it quickly.

tc

Re: help settle debate on timing tells
 

I really, really want to troll this thread because of the [censored] you've talked to me about my tells, but whatever.

Quick calls - draw or weak hand
Quick checks - going for a c/r
Slow checks - hoping you check
Slow calls - could have anything really

Re: help settle debate on timing tells
 

[ QUOTE ]
I really, really want to troll this thread because of the [censored] you've talked to me about my tells, but whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]
lol, i admit ive talked [censored] to you but the having tells on those call downs i made were jokes, i just thought i was good

Re: help settle debate on timing tells
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I really, really want to troll this thread because of the [censored] you've talked to me about my tells, but whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]
lol, i admit ive talked [censored] to you but the having tells on those call downs i made were jokes, i just thought i was good

[/ QUOTE ]
oh i know

Re: help settle debate on timing tells
 

[ QUOTE ]
I really, really want to troll this thread because of the [censored] you've talked to me about my tells, but whatever.

Quick calls - draw or weak hand
Quick checks - going for a c/r
Slow checks - hoping you check
Slow calls - could have anything really

[/ QUOTE ]


The bolded two are very reliable for limit flop games, especially the rapid check going for a check-raise. I've made some sick checks behind based on this.

Re: help settle debate on timing tells
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I really, really want to troll this thread because of the [censored] you've talked to me about my tells, but whatever.

Quick calls - draw or weak hand
Quick checks - going for a c/r
Slow checks - hoping you check
Slow calls - could have anything really

[/ QUOTE ]


The bolded two are very reliable for limit flop games, especially the rapid check going for a check-raise. I've made some sick checks behind based on this.

[/ QUOTE ]

disagree with the bolded things

Re: help settle debate on timing tells
 

[ QUOTE ]
Who cares. The river is a bad card for you to bluff after him calling that turn bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only if the villain is completely retarded.

Re: help settle debate on timing tells
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Who cares. The river is a bad card for you to bluff after him calling that turn bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only if the villain is completely retarded.

[/ QUOTE ]

to clarify, im not saying this is a good/bad card to bluff, Im just saying it is definitely not a card I'm like WOW ITS RIDIC TO BLUFF THIS RIVER. Seems like a reasonable river to put someone to a decision if you want to bluff.

Re: help settle debate on timing tells
 

[ QUOTE ]
ok so this hand just happened and was talking about it with someone

No-Limit Hold'em, $10 BB (2 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Hero ($2301.91)
Button ($2225)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $35</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $120</font>, Button calls $85.

Flop: ($240) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $200</font>, Button calls $200.

Turn: ($640) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $520</font>, Button calls $520.

River: ($1680) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets 1461.91 </font>

they thought a while before calling turn. i pushed because i figured this mean they didnt really like their hand (like maybe they had 68 and were counting odds?). on the other hand, when a bet is on someone people usually say the person is weighing his options of calling vs raising, which would mean the person probably has a strong hand, i would think.

the opponent wasn't spectacular or anything, so no idea if he is trying to level me with time use.

any thoughts on bluffing by using timing tells?? ty

[/ QUOTE ]

for the record, back in the old days on party I used to INSTACALL flop and turn bets with sets because I felt like it looked weak to do it. these days, I think putting a blanket statement out there about 'timing tells' is silly. Generally when they insta-call the all in on the river for 3x the pot its bad though.

Re: help settle debate on timing tells
 

[ QUOTE ]
Generally when they insta-call the all in on the river for 3x the pot its bad though.

[/ QUOTE ]
NOTED

Re: help settle debate on timing tells
 

I usually think timing tells are what they are in NL. Taking a lot of time equals weakness, its usually not some mindgame by your opponent. However, what was probably taking your opponent so long in that hand was that he was deciding if tens or A7 is worth stacking off with, and so even though he banked on turn he'll probably make a relatively quick crying call on the river.

Re: help settle debate on timing tells
 

in general i only trust quick tells. A long pause can mean soooo many different things that it seems like theres no point in trying to figure out what. In general though i find that it means strength (although once again, i'd never use it as a reason to make one play or another, just a general observation).

Re: help settle debate on timing tells
 

dont really like it