X-Post: poker pro - hardest job there is?
 

This is a cross post from the psychology forum - you can find the original here Posting here in attempt to find more poker pros.

The original post seemed to get guys that haven't been poker pros responding, telling me how 40k hands/month is nothing, how they play 40k hands/wk, or 40k hands/month single tabling. So in this thread I'd like responses from people who have been poker pros, only. Thanks. Hopefully there re more poker pros reading here. Here's the initial post...

Cliff notes at bottom.

Sorry if this has already been discussed, couldn't find anything on it though, so here goes.

It's my contention that being an online poker pro is one of the hardest jobs a person could do. What are you thoughts on this?

I will explain my thoughts...

I play mid-stakes 6max LHE for a living. I try to play as much as I can each month, to make the most money I can, and as many tables as possible to maximise my hourly rate.

I've found that playing 6 tables is optimal for me in terms of hourly rate, and I just cannot drive myself to play more than 40k hands each month. Sure, I could play less tables and it would ease the load on my mind a bit - but I'd make less per hour. And I could play less each month, but I want to make the max I can.

Given the outline of 'my job' above, I truly believe what I'm doing is one of the most difficult jobs there is. I am constantly making decisions... many easy decisions like preflop and c-betting flops HU... but many difficult decisions that really take some thought. After a long session, my brain is just about fried. It takes so much concentration and focus - there's no looking out the window and thinking about the weekend like most jobs.

And then there's the swings. I think I handle these better than most. But I have yet to meet a poker pro (and I know quite a lot) that is uneffected psychologically by the swings. 100BB downswings in one day are quite common... breakeven stretches for weeks... 3-500BB downswings. It's hard to remain unphased. It's not even the money that bothers us - it's that thought in the back of your mind that you're no longer playing winning poker. The games are constantly getting tougher... am I currently being outplayed? It doesn't feel like I am... but I keep losing... this is what goes through a poker pros mind.

I'm trying to think of what other jobs are tougher. Sure, you have physical jobs... labourer, whatever... that's not the kinda difficulty I'm talking about. I would love to go out and "labour" for the same money I'm making playing poker, but it just doesn't happen. Any sort of office jobs is usually pretty repetitive and doesn't require a lot of brain power once you've been doing it for a while... plus you can always sit and do nothing for 5 minutes and nobody would know. I'm thinking something like a surgeon might be difficult... there's the emotional aspect of playing with someones life, but I'm sure once you get the experience that goes away. And then there's the old favourite of comparing a poker pro to an air-traffic controller...

I'm sure being an air-traffic controller is mentally intensive. You can't look away from the screen (similar to poker). You literally have peoples lives in your hands - emotional aspect. But just how many difficult decisions do you have to make? I'd say most decisions are pretty rudimentary. Can it really compare to being constantly put in tough spots by other smart players trying to outplay you?

I started writing this thread because I've just come off the phone with a girl I've started seeing. She's very demanding of my time... I've told her I'm busy when I play poker and that I can't be disturbed - but she doesn't see why I can't talk on the phone, or chat on msn at the same time. I am stupid, because I've allowed it whilst just playing 3 tables before... but once I crank up 6 tables and try to talk, she may as well be talking to herself. She doesn't understand how difficult it is. Does anyone that doesn't play? We have argument about this... I have said to her, "You have no idea what I'm trying to do here" (play winning poker). I really think it's one of the hardest things you can do.

Would love to hear other peoples thoughts on this.

joop

Cliff notes : I think being a poker pro is one of the toughest jobs there is and would like peoples opinion on this.

Re: X-Post: poker pro - hardest job there is?
 

One thing I wanted to add in to my initial post, and kinda mentioned it, but didn't make it that clear. But I think it's becoming evident...

Is the question of whether anyone can really understand how difficult it is to be a poker pro, when they haven't actually done it? It seems to me they just cannot understand it. Is there anyone out there that has done many difficult jobs AND played poker for a living - so they can offer their comparison.

And just to clarify, I'm not talking 20k hands a month of 3-4 tabling small stakes for 6 months. I'm talking 40k hands a month of 6 tabling tough mid-stakes LHE games for year after year.

Re: X-Post: poker pro - hardest job there is?
 

Are you a moron? Police, Fire Brigade, minumum wage workers doing [censored] jobs. GTFO poker pro is a lucrative hobby. Are you living in the real world?

Re: X-Post: poker pro - hardest job there is?
 

only read the cliffnote but being a pokerpro is the most awesome thing

Re: X-Post: poker pro - hardest job there is?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are you a moron? Police, Fire Brigade, minumum wage workers doing [censored] jobs. GTFO poker pro is a lucrative hobby. Are you living in the real world?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sooo, how many years were you a poker pro, exactly?

Re: X-Post: poker pro - hardest job there is?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are you a moron? Police, Fire Brigade, minumum wage workers doing [censored] jobs. GTFO poker pro is a lucrative hobby. Are you living in the real world?

[/ QUOTE ]

Cop : Sit around, eat donuts. My old man was a cop for 28yrs, pretty cruisy job.

Fire dude : Sit around even more. Go have fun fighting fire when bells rings - cool job.

Min. wage dude : Soooooo, cleaner? What's hard about that job? McDonald's worker... seems pretty easy, too.

Re: X-Post: poker pro - hardest job there is?
 

I was a glorified janitor, telemarketer, car washer, and soldier before becoming a poker pro. They all sucked a bunch and paid way less.

I dare you to try cold calling for even 20 hrs/week and see how long you could handle that before you want to stab yourself in the ear.

If you're a good player you should be able to play profitably in a few different games. Mix in some MTTs and/or different games if you get bored of LHE. Your hourly rate may be lower, but sanity is good for your hourly rate too...

Re: X-Post: poker pro - hardest job there is?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are you a moron? Police, Fire Brigade, minumum wage workers doing [censored] jobs. GTFO poker pro is a lucrative hobby. Are you living in the real world?

[/ QUOTE ]

you are the biggest crapposter in the history of 2+2, why dont you just get banned already ok?

Re: X-Post: poker pro - hardest job there is?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Cop : Sit around, eat donuts. My old man was a cop for 28yrs, pretty cruisy job.

Fire dude : Sit around even more. Go have fun fighting fire when bells rings - cool job.

Min. wage dude : Soooooo, cleaner? What's hard about that job? McDonald's worker... seems pretty easy, too.

[/ QUOTE ]Telemarketer: Call people on the phone who don't want to talk to you, get bitched out, repeat.

Soldier: Do bs work 60-70 hours a week (overtime? you wish), get yelled at for no reason, go to war and get shot at...

Re: X-Post: poker pro - hardest job there is?
 

Jesus I hope this is a gimmick. Poker harder than surgery? Get over yourself. If you can't get used to swings, what makes you think surgeons get used to losing patients? And yes I am a pro.

Re: X-Post: poker pro - hardest job there is?
 

It's psychologically difficult at times, but that's it. Funny thread.

Re: X-Post: poker pro - hardest job there is?
 

I'm playing professionally now (admittedly not for very long), but I had time to watch the entire first season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer last week.

So no, the job's not very hard.

Re: X-Post: poker pro - hardest job there is?
 

Poker is up there with the easiest jobs ever.

Work from home, set your own hours, get paid a high amount with no glass ceiling on earnings beyond your own skills = awesome.

Re: X-Post: poker pro - hardest job there is?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Jesus I hope this is a gimmick. Poker harder than surgery? Get over yourself. If you can't get used to swings, what makes you think surgeons get used to losing patients? And yes I am a pro.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not a gimmick [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

When I was comparing it to a surgeon's job, I was accepting that a surgeon has an emotional aspect to his job.

What I consider more difficult, is making new complex/difficult decisions each time I play... unlike a surgeons who are doing the same procedure they've probably done 100x before (vasectomy, remove appendix, install breast implants, etc).

If I could come to play poker today and get dealt the exact same hands I was dealt yesterday, and my opponents the same - and just follow the same process I'd done before... wow, it would be easy.

Re: X-Post: poker pro - hardest job there is?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I play mid-stakes 6max LHE for a living

[/ QUOTE ]

well here's your problem right here

Re: X-Post: poker pro - hardest job there is?
 

If you love poker you become a poker pro. It's not easy but then you know that. What makes a job tough? Doing someting you hate is what makes a job tough. If your gf can't handle the fact that phones and IM's are off-limit when you are playing aka working then get a new girl. Chances are her level of respect for your choice of profession would be the same even if you were a heart surgeon.
Bottom line-it's not about what is the toughest job in the world. It's about setting limits around how much multi-tasking you can effectively do no matter what you do for a living.

Re: X-Post: poker pro - hardest job there is?
 

Previous jobs-

Laborer. Jack-hammering, using a sledgehammer, carrying concrete 40 hours a week is exhausting. Mentally, it is very depressing to go home at night.

Sales- Highly stressful with large swings. People are trying to "outplay" you as well.

Bike Messenger-- Better be on top of your mind here. Dodging traffic, people, dogs, etc. Get used to it after a while, until you get nailed by a car or flip your bike.

Telemarketer-- Fired in less than two days, no comment.

Live poker pro-- The swings last longer and suck worse.

I don't know if you can say any of these jobs were easier or harder. I will say that a very unique bunch of people are able to attain success at this. It does take a high threshold of boredom and a ton of mental accuitty.

For someone like me, a high school dropout with no college. Yes, this is the hardest job I ever had.

Re: X-Post: poker pro - hardest job there is?
 

Being a blackjack pro is way harder than being a poker pro. Being a chess pro is harder still.

Re: X-Post: poker pro - hardest job there is?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Bike Messenger-- Better be on top of your mind here. Dodging traffic, people, dogs, etc. Get used to it after a while, until you get nailed by a car or flip your bike.

[/ QUOTE ]

I also did this. 12hr days of riding almost non-stop. Through 100 degrees in summer, and 0 degree mornings in winter... all day raining, etc. It's a tough job... but it's physical - I different type of difficult.

Re: X-Post: poker pro - hardest job there is?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Being a blackjack pro is way harder than being a poker pro. Being a chess pro is harder still.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good shout on the black jack pro. Tough decisions and having to hide your prowess from multiple observers.

I counted cards (recreationally) before coming to poker, I believe at the time of my switch over many others were doing the same.

Re: X-Post: poker pro - hardest job there is?
 

being a poker pro can be hard to "turn into a profession" aka hard to get started

but once you're established like msyelf....it's CAKE..seriously I can make $20K a month, and barely play...but when I first left school and was a weak winning player at party NL 100...it was TOUGH for me.

Re: X-Post: poker pro - hardest job there is?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bike Messenger-- Better be on top of your mind here. Dodging traffic, people, dogs, etc. Get used to it after a while, until you get nailed by a car or flip your bike.

[/ QUOTE ]

I also did this. 12hr days of riding almost non-stop. Through 100 degrees in summer, and 0 degree mornings in winter... all day raining, etc. It's a tough job... but it's physical - I different type of difficult.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where?

Cleveland and Miami.

I think that there are different kinds of difficult. Physical and mental. I find it ironic that mental difficulty demands more attention to better food.

Re: X-Post: poker pro - hardest job there is?
 

Perth, Australia. I still ride a lot and workout, staying in shape helps keep me sharp at the tables.

Re: X-Post: poker pro - hardest job there is?
 

Pretty much every job I can think of is harder than being an online poker pro.

Re: X-Post: poker pro - hardest job there is?
 

Yeah, I left my last bike somewhere and don't care to ride ever again. Sorry, getting reflective.

Re: X-Post: poker pro - hardest job there is?
 

I hesitate to respond because the premise is just so silly. But fwiw I have been a poker pro for the last 18 months (during which I've probably played as many or more hands at 100/200+ LHE than anyone else on the planet) and for the ten years before then was a lawyer at a top DC law firm. Every day I play poker -- which is five days a week -- is like a vacation compared to my old job.

Re: X-Post: poker pro - hardest job there is?
 

It probably is one of the hardest(stressful I guess you mean) jobs out there but some people thrive in it. There are jobs that are way worse than poker but that dosent mean they are "harder". Those desk jobs would frigging kill me, I could not sit there with nothing to do or meaningless tasks. As much as I hate the poker grind it is less difficult than doing that crap. Labor jobs are generally not mentally stressful but they can obviously be physically stresful. Again, some people thrive on this type of work and one mans "hard" work is anothers "cake job".

Also, your post sounds a little like I have heard from addicts who say, "You could just never understand what I am going through, I go through more pain than anyone else. I am unique in my pain." It's the ego wanting to believe that you are better/stronger because you can handle this level of stress. I recommend you stop thinking about how "hard" the job is and be extremelly thankful for the job you have. Not many people can do this for a living though and you should be somewhat proud that you can. Just be thankful that you are not doing something you hate. And if you do hate it, get different job!

fwiw

yoga

Re: X-Post: poker pro - hardest job there is?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are you a moron? Police, Fire Brigade, minumum wage workers doing [censored] jobs. GTFO poker pro is a lucrative hobby. Are you living in the real world?

[/ QUOTE ]

>>>Cop : Sit around, eat donuts. My old man was a cop for 28yrs, pretty cruisy job.<<<

Your dad is the exception and I will add that nobody really knows what our fathers went through because we were ignorant kids when we they were going through it. Most fathers hide their pain.

>>>Fire dude : Sit around even more. Go have fun fighting fire when bells rings - cool job.<<

Yeah, and I hear dying is real fun too.

>>>Min. wage dude : Soooooo, cleaner? What's hard about that job? McDonald's worker... seems pretty easy, too.

[/ QUOTE ]<<<

You were obviously spoiled by your parents to think this way. Min-wage jobs absoulutely suck.

Re: X-Post: poker pro - hardest job there is?
 

depends how good you are at poker.

Re: X-Post: poker pro - hardest job there is?
 

yogadude : Thank you for your very constructive input. Gives me something to think about.

Re: X-Post: poker pro - hardest job there is?
 

[ QUOTE ]
depends how good you are at poker.

[/ QUOTE ]And we have a winner.

Re: X-Post: poker pro - hardest job there is?
 

Good enough to make 150+/hr. But not good enough to feel it's easy, obv.

Re: X-Post: poker pro - hardest job there is?
 

Is it tough to be a poker pro? Yes, but it's tough to do anything for a living for a long period of time. Anything gets boring and stressful, and if you are good at it there is a compulsion to play as much as you can. That, imo, is the toughest part of playing poker for a living. Once you find a balance of being serious while you are working, and also leading a life outside of poker, the poker part becomes pretty easy. There are decisions to make, but those decisions come pretty easy if you are paying attention. Once you are good at poker, it really isn't harder than any other job you may have that requires a certain skill set.

Re: X-Post: poker pro - hardest job there is?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Jesus I hope this is a gimmick. Poker harder than surgery? Get over yourself. If you can't get used to swings, what makes you think surgeons get used to losing patients? And yes I am a pro.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not a gimmick [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

When I was comparing it to a surgeon's job, I was accepting that a surgeon has an emotional aspect to his job.

What I consider more difficult, is making new complex/difficult decisions each time I play... unlike a surgeons who are doing the same procedure they've probably done 100x before (vasectomy, remove appendix, install breast implants, etc).

If I could come to play poker today and get dealt the exact same hands I was dealt yesterday, and my opponents the same - and just follow the same process I'd done before... wow, it would be easy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I played poker fulltime for 4-month stretches when I was in undergrad, so I have an idea what it is like to wake up everyday and grind poker for 6-12 hours. Sure the money is nice, but really, you cannot compare it to the difficulty of being a doctor.

It's not all the diseases and diagnoses and drugs you have to know as a doctor that makes it tough. Even the long hours are not that bad. It's the fact that all the really tough decisions you have to make have real and significant impacts for OTHER peoples' lives. Thats the big distinction IMO. In poker you have tough decisions, yes, but the outcome is simply money. Money which can be rewon by a winning player. You are the only one that pays the consequences for your decisions, and that is a liberating thing. After playing for a while you start to shrug off the losses and the bad swings (the long-term pros have to....those can't take the swings bail early).

Doctors have to make tough decisions all the time. They are constantly surrounded by the worst that society has to offer. Every surgeon eventually loses patients, and some of those are going to be because of a mistake the doctor made. They missed a diagnosis, they didn't resect all of the tumor, they couldn't stop the unexpected bleeding, the patient died of post-op complications like infection or stroke. If you don't think these weight heavily on the surgeons you are deluded. Why do you think doctor's are overrepresented as far as depression, divorce, substance abuse and suicide?

You say you are constantly worrying about getting outplayed or leaking, and I can remember having those thougths too when I was losing. But doctors don't have it easy, believe me. Every headache that comes into the office could be a tumor, every kid with a fever could have meningitis, every female with abdomenal pain could have ovarian cancer or an lethal ectopic pregnancy. The fact that these are rare but deadly conditions makes it necessary to be constatly vigilant and somewhat paranoid. When you miss one of these things and someone dies, it affects you way more than that bluff of yours that got picked off or that river card that ended your tournament.

And I expect that a lot of the other jobs you mentioned are a lot more difficult and stressful than you think.

Re: X-Post: poker pro - hardest job there is?
 

I have a solid argument against the OP's claim that "Being a Poker Pro is the hardest job there is."

I'll try to make this as quick as possible for those in need of cliffnotes.

Assertions
-A job's function is for a society to work most productively.

* People with good physical skills do physical labor, those with mental skills work using their brains predominantly(ie. Lawyers, Doctors, Accountants, and...... in our society - poker players - though grinders in a rough sense are not really contributing to society, but that doesn't really come into play here)

<u>A Hard Job Can Be:</u>

- One that you are poorly suited to. ie. A very weak person who must do arduous labor, or someone not mentally capable doing mentally challenging tasks.

- One that involves a great deal of pain.
* Pain in this case has a very loose meaning, it can mean physical pain or other forms of pain such as: Having work that is extremely stressful, having work that constantly endangers your livelyhood (Not enough money to pay bills/eat), and other forms of pain are abundant.

<u>Conclusion</u>

- A winning poker player cannot in theory be that poorly suited to his job, since in order to be a winner, you must have mental capabilities.

- A winning poker player does not face a great deal of pain in his/her profession, however a losing/breakeven player can since they are often endangering their livelyhood. However a losing player cannot consider his income poker, because there is none in the longrun.

---- Therefore a professional poker player cannot in realistic terms have "The hardest job there is".



P.S. You can think about it in a practical sense as well, pro poker players generally enjoy what they do, make a decent living, and make their own hours.

Re: X-Post: poker pro - hardest job there is?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Are you a moron? Police, Fire Brigade, minumum wage workers doing [censored] jobs. GTFO poker pro is a lucrative hobby. Are you living in the real world?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea staying up till 4am, waking up at 2, drinking and doing drugs alot of the time, poker players have terrible lives?

Re: X-Post: poker pro - hardest job there is?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Jesus I hope this is a gimmick. Poker harder than surgery? Get over yourself. If you can't get used to swings, what makes you think surgeons get used to losing patients? And yes I am a pro.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT.

Re: X-Post: poker pro - hardest job there is?
 

Sorry but 40k hands a month seriously is nothing. I play HU cash part time, usually just 1 or 2 tabling and I am able to get 20k hands a month without much difficulty.

6-tabling 6max LHE? Are you working like two hours a day?

Re: X-Post: poker pro - hardest job there is?
 

fire jumpers

/end thread

Re: X-Post: poker pro - hardest job there is?
 

the pros that find poker the hardest are the ones who shouldn't be playing fulltime to begin with, and should probably do something else with there lives.

yes there are swings in poker, but if your good player who has played millions of hands (and have been throught it ALL) they shouldn't bother you that much.