If You\'re a Christian who Believes in Evolution..
 

Science tells us that our species has been around for at least 200,000 years. Presumably we were sinning and had many of the same bad habits as we did when Christ was born.

Question: Why did God wait some 198,000 years before sending Jesus down to save humanity?

You might think this is a silly question, but man was just as sinful before Jesus as he is now. How do you explain why the first 198,000 years of sinning was overlooked by God?

You can't say He just got fed up one day and decided to do something about it, because we're still sinning today. If Jesus ended sin, I might buy that argument. But since there is still sin, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to wait 198,000 years, does it?

Re: If You\'re a Christian who Believes in Evolution..
 

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it doesn't make a whole lot of sense

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Re: If You\'re a Christian who Believes in Evolution..
 

Maybe he sent down someone before but we don't know who they were since we didn't have writing. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: If You\'re a Christian who Believes in Evolution..
 

god works in mysterious ways.

Re: If You\'re a Christian who Believes in Evolution..
 

We need to talk about it on their terms.

"Why did God wait 4000 years to send the savior?"

Re: If You\'re a Christian who Believes in Evolution..
 

i am an adament atheist, but if you read the religious text god did do a lot about sinners, he kept killing them. flood, sodom and gamora (sp?), im sure some others i don't know about, but god kept cleaning the slate of humanity according to bible.

also its the question of when do we become human and/or capable of sin. since humans were hunter gatherers til about 10k years ago, i guess we weren't really capable of sin til we were capable of something other than avoiding starvations/getting eaten/freezing to death.

Re: If You\'re a Christian who Believes in Evolution..
 

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also its the question of when do we become human and/or capable of sin. since humans were hunter gatherers til about 10k years ago, i guess we weren't really capable of sin til we were capable of something other than avoiding starvations/getting eaten/freezing to death.

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Maybe we were too busy trying to find something to eat and not be eaten to have time to invent a god.

Re: If You\'re a Christian who Believes in Evolution..
 

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also its the question of when do we become human and/or capable of sin. since humans were hunter gatherers til about 10k years ago, i guess we weren't really capable of sin til we were capable of something other than avoiding starvations/getting eaten/freezing to death.

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Maybe we were too busy trying to find something to eat and not be eaten to have time to invent a god.

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i don't get your comment, you pretty much just restated the last part of what you quoted of my comment

Re: If You\'re a Christian who Believes in Evolution..
 

<font color="blue"> since humans were hunter gatherers til about 10k years ago, i guess we weren't really capable of sin til we were capable of something other than avoiding starvations/getting eaten/freezing to death.
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You don't think there was stealing, adultery, murder, rape, coveting, etc., just because we were hunter/gatherers? In fact, I'd submit that ALL 10 commandents were quite likely broken on a regular basis even back then.

Again, to all Christians... This may seem like a petty and silly question. But this is just one of the things that troubled me as a believer. So I ask in all earnest.

Re: If You\'re a Christian who Believes in Evolution..
 

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<font color="blue"> since humans were hunter gatherers til about 10k years ago, i guess we weren't really capable of sin til we were capable of something other than avoiding starvations/getting eaten/freezing to death.
</font>

You don't think there was stealing, adultery, murder, rape, coveting, etc., just because we were hunter/gatherers? In fact, I'd submit that ALL 10 commandents were quite likely broken on a regular basis even back then.

Again, to all Christians... This may seem like a petty and silly question. But this is just one of the things that troubled me as a believer. So I ask in all earnest.

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i counter with this: can animals sin? were humans very different from other animals in their abilities to decide than a chimp, a gorilla, a baboon? when did humans become so different from other animals that we are to be held accountable for our actions?

Re: If You\'re a Christian who Believes in Evolution..
 

Here's something that may help answer your question.
From The Message Eugene Peterson's modern day translation of the bible:

1 Thessalonians 4
You're God-Taught
1-3 One final word, friends. We ask you—urge is more like it—that you keep on doing what we told you to do to please God, not in a dogged religious plod, but in a living, spirited dance. You know the guidelines we laid out for you from the Master Jesus. God wants you to live a pure life.
Keep yourselves from sexual promiscuity.

4-5Learn to appreciate and give dignity to your body, not abusing it, as is so common among those who know nothing of God.

6-7Don't run roughshod over the concerns of your brothers and sisters. Their concerns are God's concerns, and he will take care of them. We've warned you about this before. God hasn't invited us into a disorderly, unkempt life but into something holy and beautiful—as beautiful on the inside as the outside.

8If you disregard this advice, you're not offending your neighbors; you're rejecting God, who is making you a gift of his Holy Spirit.

9-10Regarding life together and getting along with each other, you don't need me to tell you what to do. You're God-taught in these matters. Just love one another! You're already good at it; your friends all over the province of Macedonia are the evidence. Keep it up; get better and better at it.

11-12Stay calm; mind your own business; do your own job. You've heard all this from us before, but a reminder never hurts. We want you living in a way that will command the respect of outsiders, not lying around sponging off your friends.

The Master's Coming
13- 14And regarding the question, friends, that has come up about what happens to those already dead and buried, we don't want you in the dark any longer . First off, you must not carry on over them like people who have nothing to look forward to, as if the grave were the last word. Since Jesus died and broke loose from the grave, God will most certainly bring back to life those who died in Jesus.
15-18And then this: We can tell you with complete confidence—we have the Master's word on it—that when the Master comes again to get us, those of us who are still alive will not get a jump on the dead and leave them behind. In actual fact, they'll be ahead of us.The Master himself will give the command.

Re: If You\'re a Christian who Believes in Evolution..
 

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i counter with this: can animals sin? were humans very different from other animals in their abilities to decide than a chimp, a gorilla, a baboon? when did humans become so different from other animals that we are to be held accountable for our actions?



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It took humans about 5 million years to diverge by 1.6% of their genome from chimpanzees. Lestat is only talking about the most current 200,000 years when we were no longer Australopithecus, but full blown hommosapiens. Chimps are so close to us, I’m surprised that they don’t have their own personal savior, but as stated, we weren’t much different 200,000 years ago then we are now.

Re: If You\'re a Christian who Believes in Evolution..
 

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i counter with this: can animals sin? were humans very different from other animals in their abilities to decide than a chimp, a gorilla, a baboon? when did humans become so different from other animals that we are to be held accountable for our actions?



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It took humans about 5 million years to diverge by 1.6% of their genome from chimpanzees. Lestat is only talking about the most current 200,000 years when we were no longer Australopithecus, but full blown hommosapiens. Chimps are so close to us, I’m surprised that they don’t have their own personal savior, but as stated, we weren’t much different 200,000 years ago then we are now.

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evolutionarily no, but socially we were closer to chimps than to what we are now

Re: If You\'re a Christian who Believes in Evolution..
 

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Chimps are so close to us, I’m surprised that they don’t have their own personal savior, but as stated, we weren’t much different 200,000 years ago then we are now.

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http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/c...jesuschimp.jpg

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<font color="blue"> since humans were hunter gatherers til about 10k years ago, i guess we weren't really capable of sin til we were capable of something other than avoiding starvations/getting eaten/freezing to death.
</font>

You don't think there was stealing, adultery, murder, rape, coveting, etc., just because we were hunter/gatherers? In fact, I'd submit that ALL 10 commandents were quite likely broken on a regular basis even back then.

Again, to all Christians... This may seem like a petty and silly question. But this is just one of the things that troubled me as a believer. So I ask in all earnest.

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i counter with this: can animals sin? were humans very different from other animals in their abilities to decide than a chimp, a gorilla, a baboon? when did humans become so different from other animals that we are to be held accountable for our actions?

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Of course, I'm going to say no. Humans are not different from animals. Humans ARE animals. But then, I don't believe humans have souls. Those who do, need to identify exactly when God started implanting them into humans. Did humans always have souls? Or did God wait until humans reached a specific point on the intelligence scale? Either way, there's not much difference between humans now and 200k years ago.

Re: If You\'re a Christian who Believes in Evolution..
 

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<font color="blue"> since humans were hunter gatherers til about 10k years ago, i guess we weren't really capable of sin til we were capable of something other than avoiding starvations/getting eaten/freezing to death.
</font>

You don't think there was stealing, adultery, murder, rape, coveting, etc., just because we were hunter/gatherers? In fact, I'd submit that ALL 10 commandents were quite likely broken on a regular basis even back then.

Again, to all Christians... This may seem like a petty and silly question. But this is just one of the things that troubled me as a believer. So I ask in all earnest.

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i counter with this: can animals sin? were humans very different from other animals in their abilities to decide than a chimp, a gorilla, a baboon? when did humans become so different from other animals that we are to be held accountable for our actions?

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Of course, I'm going to say no. Humans are not different from animals. Humans ARE animals. But then, I don't believe humans have souls. Those who do, need to identify exactly when God started implanting them into humans. Did humans always have souls? Or did God wait until humans reached a specific point on the intelligence scale? Either way, there's not much difference between humans now and 200k years ago.

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i never said i believed any of this, just pointing out that obviously humans didn't always have sin, and it isn't like one day a flip was switched and [censored] sapiens just started being born, so at some point, assuming there is a god and there is sin, that humans had the capacity to be held accountable for their actions. this isn't an evolutionary question but more a social one

Re: If You\'re a Christian who Believes in Evolution..
 

Well, there is do doubt that there was sin for some time before Jesus came. I, and most Christians believe that the death of Jesus covered all sins (both those before and after Jesus came). Therefore, as far as I can tell, it wouldn't have mattered when Jesus came. So I think the answer to your question, "Why did God wait 198,000 years to send Jesus?", is "why not?"

Re: If You\'re a Christian who Believes in Evolution..
 

I don't think it's an evolutionary question either. But I'm not sure why you assume there was a point in which humans were without sin. I would think sin was always there, it's just a matter of when God started to hold us accountable for it. And that's one point of my question. The Christian God seems to have a strange sense of accountability.

If you believe in both evolution and the bible, you'd have to believe He let pass 200,000 years of sin, yet holds present day man accountable for some sort of "original" sin, which only the hideous torture and crucifixion of Jesus could atone for.

Of course, what I'm getting at is that none of this makes sense to a rational thinking person. Since those Christians who believe in evolution seem to make an attempt at rationality, I ask them.

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Well, there is do doubt that there was sin for some time before Jesus came. I, and most Christians believe that the death of Jesus covered all sins (both those before and after Jesus came). Therefore, as far as I can tell, it wouldn't have mattered when Jesus came. So I think the answer to your question, "Why did God wait 198,000 years to send Jesus?", is "why not?"

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this is something i never got, if jesus absolved all sins, why do people still theoretically go to hell?

Re: If You\'re a Christian who Believes in Evolution..
 

Humans do have souls if we didn't have them, if we were entirely physical, then we couldn never know it.

In this story by Dennis J. De Haan it shows a little boy with a soul:

"A father took his family to a restaurant. Before the meal, his 6-year-old son prayed, "Thank You for the food, and I would even thank You more if Mom got us ice cream. Amen!"

Amid the laughter, a woman nearby said indignantly, "That's what's wrong with this country. Kids today don't even know how to pray. Asking God for ice cream!" The lad overheard her and burst into tears. Just then an elderly gentleman came by, winked at the boy, and whispered to him, "Too bad she never asks God for ice cream. A little ice cream is good for the soul sometimes."

When dessert came, the boy picked up his sundae, walked to the lady's table, and set it before her. With a big smile he said, "This is for you. Ice cream is good for the soul sometimes, and my soul is good already."

This young boy showed the kind of selfless humility that Jesus talked about in Matthew 18. When the disciples asked Him, "Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" He said that we must emulate the humility and trust of little children (vv.1-4)."

The moral actions of the little boy show me he had a soul.

Re: If You\'re a Christian who Believes in Evolution..
 

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If you believe in both evolution and the bible,..

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Why would any entity capable of creating the universe look like humans? It wouldn't need a nose. It wouldn't need to breathe. Whose gases in outer space are poisonous. Why would it need feet? Why would it be only three dimensional? It ought to be multi-dimensional, capable of traveling faster than the speed of light.

Besides the Jews stole the stories in the bible from the Sumerians.

Re: If You\'re a Christian who Believes in Evolution..
 

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Science tells us that our species has been around for at least 200,000 years. Presumably we were sinning and had many of the same bad habits as we did when Christ was born.

Question: Why did God wait some 198,000 years before sending Jesus down to save humanity?

You might think this is a silly question, but man was just as sinful before Jesus as he is now. How do you explain why the first 198,000 years of sinning was overlooked by God?

You can't say He just got fed up one day and decided to do something about it, because we're still sinning today. If Jesus ended sin, I might buy that argument. But since there is still sin, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to wait 198,000 years, does it?

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You know when you view a very long clip in a media player how hard it is to skip to a certain time? That's pretty much how hard it is. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] Just what is 198000 years to God?

Thus, Armageddon's timing and the timing of other assorted events can only be "approximate" at best.

Or perhaps he was too busy wiping out the previous species of intelligent beings who were pissing him off. We all know dinosaurs were also godless idol worshiping heathens. It might be likely that the Neanderthals might be part of this group.

But as a serious response, the story says that sin didn't really end, you have to accept Jesus who died for your sins [that you have and will have commited]In fact, it's pretty much given that people will be sinning until Aramgeddon regardless if they are Christian or not because alone humanity cannot escape sin; thus Jesus must be the substitute for everyone. It's not until the final boss is defeated before we can all escape. If he had just ended sinning when he died, then the religion wouldn't really sell well, would it? It's one big long guilt trip, basically.

Edit: Yea, I'm not a theist, but I just wanted to point out why a Christian would not necessarily see the death of Christ to end all sin.

Re: If You\'re a Christian who Believes in Evolution..
 

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Humans do have souls if we didn't have them, if we were entirely physical, then we couldn never know it.

In this story by Dennis J. De Haan it shows a little boy with a soul:

"A father took his family to a restaurant. Before the meal, his 6-year-old son prayed, "Thank You for the food, and I would even thank You more if Mom got us ice cream. Amen!"

Amid the laughter, a woman nearby said indignantly, "That's what's wrong with this country. Kids today don't even know how to pray. Asking God for ice cream!" The lad overheard her and burst into tears. Just then an elderly gentleman came by, winked at the boy, and whispered to him, "Too bad she never asks God for ice cream. A little ice cream is good for the soul sometimes."

When dessert came, the boy picked up his sundae, walked to the lady's table, and set it before her. With a big smile he said, "This is for you. Ice cream is good for the soul sometimes, and my soul is good already."

This young boy showed the kind of selfless humility that Jesus talked about in Matthew 18. When the disciples asked Him, "Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" He said that we must emulate the humility and trust of little children (vv.1-4)."

The moral actions of the little boy show me he had a soul.

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okay, if we can use examples like that, hitler and the 3rd reich killed 6 million jews along with millions of other minorities, this proves to me that there is no god. if we can use single examples as proof of anything incorporeal, then mine seems to outweigh yours.

Re: If You\'re a Christian who Believes in Evolution..
 

Vander Lugt has this to say about God's transcendence over creation:

The eternal God is transcendent, not part of creation. God's existence cannot be "proven" in the way that science can prove or disprove a fact about the material world ( see Hebrews 11:1 ). We are spiritual beings , created in God's image, aware of our own existence, and capable of choice. If we choose to believe that there is no God and that the universe is just a fantastically complex accident,our choice will inevitably lead to the conclusion that life is absurd and without meaning. To live without meaning is a hopeless struggle at best, and always ends in despair. But if we believe in the God of the Bible, we not only have a reason to believe in life's meaningfulness, but we also have the assurance of seeing the kingdom of God with our own eyes.

For the High and Lofty One who inhabits eternity and whose name is holy says, "I dwell in the high and holy place, with him who has a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones" (see Isaiah 57:15).

Re: If You\'re a Christian who Believes in Evolution..
 

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Well, there is do doubt that there was sin for some time before Jesus came. I, and most Christians believe that the death of Jesus covered all sins (both those before and after Jesus came). Therefore, as far as I can tell, it wouldn't have mattered when Jesus came. So I think the answer to your question, "Why did God wait 198,000 years to send Jesus?", is "why not?"

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this is something i never got, if jesus absolved all sins, why do people still theoretically go to hell?

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The best way to explain it imo:
Jesus is your Get Out of Hell Free card. However, there are certain things you must do [as listed in the Bible] to use it. And of course you must believe in it for it to work.

Re: If You\'re a Christian who Believes in Evolution..
 

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Humans do have souls if we didn't have them, if we were entirely physical, then we couldn never know it.

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Flawless analysis.

Re: If You\'re a Christian who Believes in Evolution..
 

Your example furyshade just shows he had evil in his soul not that souls don't exist.

Atheists like to contend God doesn't exist because distressing events occur in this world. Imagine how injust everything would be if God didn't exist and Hitler didn't have to face him in an afterlife.

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Your example furyshade just shows he had evil in his soul not that souls don't exist.

Atheists like to contend God doesn't exist because distressing events occur in this world. Imagine how injust everything would be if God didn't exist and Hitler didn't have to face him in an afterlife.

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so you're saying that it was just for millions to die because hitler was punished?

Re: If You\'re a Christian who Believes in Evolution..
 

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Your example furyshade just shows he had evil in his soul not that souls don't exist.

Atheists like to contend God doesn't exist because distressing events occur in this world. Imagine how injust everything would be if God didn't exist and Hitler didn't have to face him in an afterlife.

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Which would be great except Hitler is [censored] hot bitches in Heaven right now.

Re: If You\'re a Christian who Believes in Evolution..
 

No I never said it was just for people to die. You are twisting things. I said I trust in God to do what is right regarding Hitler. If there's no God then Hitler didn't face judgment for all of his actions.

Re: If You\'re a Christian who Believes in Evolution..
 

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No I never said it was just for people to die. You are twisting things. I said I trust in God to do what is right regarding Hitler. If there's no God then Hitler didn't face judgment for all of his actions.

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how do you know he did? why would a just and loving god allow for such a thing to happen, especially to those who worship him

Re: If You\'re a Christian who Believes in Evolution..
 

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Well, there is do doubt that there was sin for some time before Jesus came. I, and most Christians believe that the death of Jesus covered all sins (both those before and after Jesus came). Therefore, as far as I can tell, it wouldn't have mattered when Jesus came. So I think the answer to your question, "Why did God wait 198,000 years to send Jesus?", is "why not?"

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Then why would it matter if Jesus was sent at all?

What I'm saying is that if you believe in evolution, then you accept that humans have been around in our current form for aproximately 200,000 years. For 198,000 of those years (which represents 99% of the entire time we have existed in our current form), God did nothing to absolve us of our sins. What is the likelihood that you would live in the 1% moment in time that humans could know about Jesus? This alone should make one skeptical. Also...

If armagedon is near (which I think most Christians believe it is), this would mean God allowed 99% of all human history to pass before sending Jesus to save us.

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No I never said it was just for people to die. You are twisting things. I said I trust in God to do what is right regarding Hitler. If there's no God then Hitler didn't face judgment for all of his actions.

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I was at the dog park today and a doberman bit off a chunk of some little mutt. Totally unprovoked. But I'm sure there's a dog god who will punish the doberman in its afterlife.

And hey this thought occurs to me too: Hitler's edicts killed 6 million Jews so he's punished in the afterlife. And this comforts you. What about those 6 million who faced absolute horror on earth, many of who were decent people by any measure. Because they don't believe in Jesus, they (by your beliefs) will suffer eternally. But this doesn't phase you. Yep, your reasoning is flawless. And your god is causing infinitely more suffering for these people than Hitler. Who will punish your god?

Re: If You\'re a Christian who Believes in Evolution..
 

Man has freewill. Unfortunately, Satan was able to introduce evil into the world by deceiving man into rebellion against God.

See Platinga's <u>God, Freedom and Evil</u>.

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Man has freewill. Unfortunately, Satan was able to introduce evil into the world by deceiving man into rebellion against God.

See Platinga's <u>God, Freedom and Evil</u>.

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Some god. His whole beautiful, sinless creation ruined by one rogue angel. And now billions of the creatures he supposes loves will burn for eternity, all because of that damned satan. Your god is a pathetic putz if he'd allow one of his own creations to ruin it for everyone.

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<font color="blue"> Atheists like to contend God doesn't exist because distressing events occur in this world. </font>

Very wrong. I think this is more a reason why theists imagine a God. To provide some source of comfort and to make sense of all the destressing events in the world.

<font color="blue"> Imagine how injust everything would be if God didn't exist and Hitler didn't have to face him in an afterlife. </font>

Again, I find this to be backwards. With a loving and just god, these things must necessarily appear unjust. Without such a god, it makes much more sense why children die from hidious inflictions like cancer for instance.

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You make a great point Milo. Unfortunately, I'm afraid it will be overlooked by many due to the vitriolic tone.

Re: If You\'re a Christian who Believes in Evolution..
 

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You make a great point Milo. Unfortunately, I'm afraid it will be overlooked by many due to the vitriolic tone.

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Thoughts like that are what I find more interesting in religious discussions. Let's cut through debating the silly details and really look at the heart of the beliefs. At their core, they are too absurd to make it even worth the study of the periphery. Example: I've asked many Christians why they think God needed a son and every single one has said they never thought about it. They all profess to believe that God sent his son to save them, but not one has even had a passing thought about what the concept of "son" means for an immortal, omnipotent being.

Re: If You\'re a Christian who Believes in Evolution..
 

10And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath.

11And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.

12And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity.

13And he laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God.

14And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day.

15The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering?

16And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound , lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?

17And when he had said these things, all his adversaries were ashamed: and all the people rejoiced for all the glorious things that were done by him.

Jesus rescued this woman that's what he came to this world to do. Rescue people. Please note: she glorified God.

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10And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath.

11And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself.

12And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity.

13And he laid his hands on her: and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God.

14And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day.

15The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to watering?

16And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound , lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?

17And when he had said these things, all his adversaries were ashamed: and all the people rejoiced for all the glorious things that were done by him.

Jesus rescued this woman that's what he came to this world to do. Rescue people. Please note: she glorified God.

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How can you credit Jesus with curing one woman (who was supposedly made ill by Satan) but not condemn Jesus for not curing the billions of others who he could merely wink and they'd too be cured? And as I stated above, your god is a putz if he lets one of his fallen angels cause such misery across his creation. Moreover, your god is an arrogant prick if the creatures he loves must first glorify him before he addresses their suffering (caused by one of his own fallen angels). If your child was suffering greatly, would you withhold alleviating that suffering until your kid glorified you? What the hell kind of love is that? That's vanity, sir, not love.