Stars 60: 2nd hand, go broke here?
 

Villain not regular, but no reads since 2nd hand.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

CO (t1500)
Button (t1490)
SB (t1480)
BB (t1530)
UTG (t1500)
UTG+1 (t1500)
MP1 (t1500)
MP2 (t1500)
Hero (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls t20, Hero calls t20, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls t20, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (t90) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets t20</font>, MP2 calls t20, Hero calls t20, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t160</font>, BB folds, MP2 calls t140, Hero calls t140.

Turn: (t590) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
MP2 checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets t120</font>, MP2 folds, Hero calls t120.

River: (t830) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t450</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t900</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t1200</font>, Button calls t290 (All-In).

Final Pot: t3220

Re: Stars 60: 2nd hand, go broke here?
 

Well, you played this hand really poorly.
Fold PF, fold on the flop, fold on the turn.

Re: Stars 60: 2nd hand, go broke here?
 

This should be fairly obvious, but if you call the turn and hit the nut straight on the river, you probably shouldn't fold.

Re: Stars 60: 2nd hand, go broke here?
 

Why do we three bet the river?

Re: Stars 60: 2nd hand, go broke here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well, you played this hand really poorly.
Fold PF, fold on the flop, fold on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm never getting involved in this spot in the first place. As PB said, fold pre.

Re: Stars 60: 2nd hand, go broke here?
 

Helpful post. Care to elaborate?

Re: Stars 60: 2nd hand, go broke here?
 

Ignoring preflop, what about postflop comments?

Re: Stars 60: 2nd hand, go broke here?
 

There's nothing wrong with PF here at all. It's 20 chips with a suited connector. If you play well after the flop, you're missing alot of value here by folding.

The line the guy took really screams of a monster, he gassed the flop, donk bet the turn, and min raised the river.

There's no reason to throw your last 250 some chips in, the difference between 2750 chips and 3k is nothing, whereas 250 to 0 is fairly significant.

Calling the huge raise on the flop I wouldn't do simply because it's multiway, and diamonds might not be good here. Furthermore you're OOP against a guy, whose range should consist entirely of 2 pair, set, Ax, or higher flush draws. IF the guy is a huge loser, I can see calling here, but against anyone close to breakeven ROI, this is a fold. If you're diamond comes, being OOP you're going to have a hard time getting his stack with any of his likely holdings, so I think this is a fold.

Once you call, I can't really see folding for 120 on the turn, eventhough he is screaming at you he's either a donk or has a monster. Sharkscope'ing him might help here. But on the end If you're worried about him having a monster, just check/call, this card did not scare him at all, he's going to bet this river with everything except non boated weak aces.

Re: Stars 60: 2nd hand, go broke here?
 

Obviously you have to call the river. What card were you hoping to see on the river when you called the turnbet?

The 1st flop call is fine I suppose, but you have to fold to the raise.

The turn call is ok if you are ready to stack off with an 8-hi flush or the straight. You can't call just hoping for the 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. This is a really easy call. If he has 66 or A6, so be it.

Basically, in sng's, drawing hands aren't worth much, unless you have position, are getting a sick price, and are able to extract the maximum.

Re: Stars 60: 2nd hand, go broke here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The line the guy took really screams of a monster, he gassed the flop, donk bet the turn, and min raised the river.

There's no reason to throw your last 250 some chips in, the difference between 2750 chips and 3k is nothing, whereas 250 to 0 is fairly significant.

[/ QUOTE ]

He didn't donkbet the turn. He was the last aggressor on the previous round of betting, so this is a standard continuation-type bet.

And flat-calling all but 250 of your chips on any street is dumb in all but the weirdest bubble situations. At this point, we shouldn't be worried about 'saving our tournament' with 250 chips if we lose, but rather maximizing our value with what is likely the best hand.

Also, the math in your example is bad. If your last 250 chips go in and he calls, the difference in your chip total when you win is not 250 as in your 2750-3000 example, it's 500. Your 250 plus his 250.

An extra 500 chips does matter, and that ev edge matters more than the prospective ev of having 250 chips left if you lose. I would think this stuff is pretty obvious.

Re: Stars 60: 2nd hand, go broke here?
 

How the [censored] are you Sober?

Re: Stars 60: 2nd hand, go broke here?
 

Yes

Re: Stars 60: 2nd hand, go broke here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously you have to call the river. What card were you hoping to see on the river when you called the turnbet?

[/ QUOTE ]

The 6 of diamonds. Call, you lose though probably.

Re: Stars 60: 2nd hand, go broke here?
 

Sober I have to disagree with you that reraising the river is smart here. I don't know how often we are ahead there or how often we are losing, but I do know that we're certainly ahead often enough that we're calling every time. However, many many times I've come back from 200 or less chips and cashed - I think the risk here FAR outweighs the reward of reraising the river. If we just call and win then we have almost a double stack at the first level - if we reraise and win we have a bit more than a double stack. If we just call and lose we have over 10 bbs left. If we reraise and lose we're dead.

Regarding the earlier streets - preflop is fine. The flop I think is a very tricky spot. Without the ace out there I'd be very very inclined to go broke with a flush draw + gutshot, but you're probably not getting an ace to fold here so I think it's a very tough decision regarding whether to call the big raise or not. I think in this situation you should fold - yes we have a big draw but our flush is obvious if it hits and may not get paid, and we will usually have to call another larger bet on the turn if we want to see 5 cards (we got lucky that villain bet the turn so weakly and let us get there).

Re: Stars 60: 2nd hand, go broke here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The line the guy took really screams of a monster, he gassed the flop, donk bet the turn, and min raised the river.

There's no reason to throw your last 250 some chips in, the difference between 2750 chips and 3k is nothing, whereas 250 to 0 is fairly significant.

[/ QUOTE ]

He didn't donkbet the turn. He was the last aggressor on the previous round of betting, so this is a standard continuation-type bet.

And flat-calling all but 250 of your chips on any street is dumb in all but the weirdest bubble situations. At this point, we shouldn't be worried about 'saving our tournament' with 250 chips if we lose, but rather maximizing our value with what is likely the best hand.

Also, the math in your example is bad. If your last 250 chips go in and he calls, the difference in your chip total when you win is not 250 as in your 2750-3000 example, it's 500. Your 250 plus his 250.

An extra 500 chips does matter, and that ev edge matters more than the prospective ev of having 250 chips left if you lose. I would think this stuff is pretty obvious.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think everything in this post is wrong.

He bet 120 into 590. In what world is this not considered a donk bet?

If you shove and win, you only have 250 more chips than if you called and win, not 500. You have your 250 chips no matter what you do. Once he min raises the river, we're not confident we have the best hand, that's why we are calling.

chips have more value the less you have, this is basic tournament poker strategy.

Edited to say: If we're calling a shove here, Why not just shove the river ourselves. Are we really worried about getting an A to fold here? btw, I'm in the check-call river camp unless he's got a real low ROI, in which case I'm shoving.

Re: Stars 60: 2nd hand, go broke here?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, the math in your example is bad. If your last 250 chips go in and he calls, the difference in your chip total when you win is not 250 as in your 2750-3000 example, it's 500. Your 250 plus his 250.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFA (A = awesomeness)

Re: Stars 60: 2nd hand, go broke here?
 

Yeah agreed, I would say my biggest mistake this hand was 3-betting the river instead of calling.

Re: Stars 60: 2nd hand, go broke here?
 

His flop raise / turn donkbet line can easily be 2 pair/set that filled up which is why I like check/call the river instead of bet/raise or bet/call. I would be shocked if button doesnt bet this river, and you lose less to the full houses when you take this line

Re: Stars 60: 2nd hand, go broke here?
 

If you see this flop then the first call is very standard, though once it is reraised I think you either need to fold or shove.

If you aren't instashoving when you hit either draw then you should never continue on this flop. There is no reason whatsoever that you should call a large portion of your stack to hit a draw that won't hit a majority of the time and that you aren't shoving with because you may have been drawing to 1 out the entire time.

Re: Stars 60: 2nd hand, go broke here?
 

[img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Sorry, posted that during my lunchbreak, and was in a hurry. Read the location, eh?

Good posts, guys. But I still think that leaving yourself 250 chips is -hourly rate. Go ahead and double up, or bust and open another table instead of treading water at t200 for another ten minutes.

Re: Stars 60: 2nd hand, go broke here?
 

I only play suited connectors when I have like 20 chips and I know I'm gonna get called by everyone. Case in point, you're drawing to a gut shot and a non-nut flush.