Learning to communicate
 

Here's the thing: I am a smart guy. I love to learn difficult concepts, and I can understand calculus, chemistry, and the poems of William Blake with a confident clarity.

But whenever I try to explain them to someone else, or to join in a discussion of others who are knowledgeable, I crash and burn. I can go maybe a few minutes without saying something stupid, or freezing up, or one of many other possible failures.

This effect is sometimes mitigated by the non-real time nature of message boards, but even then, if I'm at all hurried or excited, I'm no better here than in real life. In fact, I'm starting this thread in reaction to me flubbing a basic, though small, detail in the current AP thread. I knew it in my head, but somehow it doesn't translate to my words, and I made myself look dumb for no reason.

It's by far the most frustrating part of my life, that I cannot make people understand what I'm trying to get them to understand, and I feel like no one ever can really 'know' me until I fix this.

Has anyone else had this problem? overcome it? Suggestions? (lolz I know this is a big topic with no specific starting point; feel free to discuss whatever you think can help)

edit: changed thread title

Re: Learning to communicate
 

It sounds like you might have an anxiety disorder. A mental health professional should be able to give you some feedback on this.

Re: Learning to communicate
 

I think we are all too familiar with being misunderstood, especially on a forum because you only have your written text and no other gestures or tone of voice to indicate the what you may mean to say. I think we try to subsitute for a lack of human interaction on these boards by using "smileys" and online terminologies, but still nonethesless we sometimes fail to get our points across the way we mean them.

It is also easy to leave out what we have already taken for granted as "understood". People you know very well will understand you without you having to explain everything. They just know you and understand you, but people you don't know and who have never met you can VERY easily misunderstand you and reinterpret anything you say to mean something completely different.

Also we all come from different countries and have different cultures and belief systems which will influence the way we interpret what someone is saying, regardless of the actual words.

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Learning to communicate
 

WhoIam,
You may very well be right. Is there any more you can add, or is this strictly a "speak to a professional" thing?

Janelle,
It is definitely worse IRL than in a forum (for me, for the specific problem I'm talking about). Here, I can take time, write a sentence, rewrite it, organize some paragraphs, etc., with very little pressure. When a real person is in front of me, however, I can [censored] up the smoothest logic or the funniest joke on the planet. I can think of something perfectly brilliant, and never be able to explain it verbally.

Re: Learning to communicate
 

[ QUOTE ]
WhoIam,
You may very well be right. Is there any more you can add, or is this strictly a "speak to a professional" thing?

Janelle,
It is definitely worse IRL than in a forum (for me, for the specific problem I'm talking about). Here, I can take time, write a sentence, rewrite it, organize some paragraphs, etc., with very little pressure. When a real person is in front of me, however, I can [censored] up the smoothest logic or the funniest joke on the planet. I can think of something perfectly brilliant, and never be able to explain it verbally.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok I see. I thought prehaps you meant slightly misunderstanding you. Do you get nervous around people and this causes you to lose your train of thought? Is it around everyone or just strangers?

It is funny that it is worse for you in the real world because for me it is MORE difficult here than in the real wolrd to express myself. I find people misunderstand me alot here but in my daily life I don't seem to have the same difficulties. i think maybe because people are more eager to attack you in the virtual world than in reality.

Re: Learning to communicate
 

I don't think it is just nervousness. What helps me communicate better on a forum (and, as I said, I still don't think it's that great, but it's better) is that I can try one way of saying it, edit, organize, take time. I can look at what I'm saying and see if it makes sense, before putting it out there.

Whereas, in conversation there's no time to organize; it's just assumed that people's thoughts are already in a form that is digestible by others. And I don't think mine are. I have to translate my thoughts into English, if that makes sense (not that I think in Polish or Spanish or something, it's just that I don't think of my thoughts as 'words') It's as though anything I put down on paper (or electronic text) is a pale imitation of the real ideas I had, and yet it doesn't seem as though it's this way for everyone.

Re: Learning to communicate
 

I'm not a mental health professional, I just have a strong interest in psychology and mental health. It sounds like you've set up a loop in your head where being freaked out about not communicating well leads to you not communicating well which leads to you getting freaked out...

Just google "anxiety disorders" and pay special attention to social and generalized anxiety disorder. If you think these apply to you, there are treatments available, both drugs and other means. In any case, you should spend a session with a mental health professional talking about this. If you're in school this should be free.

edit: Do you find you communicate better after a few drinks?

Re: Learning to communicate
 

WhoIam,
thanks.

[ QUOTE ]

edit: Do you find you communicate better after a few drinks?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know, I don't drink. (not opposed to it, and will almost certainly drink in the future, but well, I also happen to be quite socially inept and I don't often find myself in situations where one would drink.)

Re: Learning to communicate
 

LOL officially I am unqualified at this point to help you. Seems it is more direr than just the regular situation when you feel you can't express yourself. I agree if it is causing you difficulties you should talk to a docotr and see if there is a simple solution. Drugs may solve this problem not that I advocate you taking medication ulnless absolutely necessary!

Re: Learning to communicate
 

In all seriousness, how does alcohol effect you in these circumstances? Not suggesting you should drink, but it may help to determine whether this is an inhibition problem.

Re: Learning to communicate
 

i have the same problem as OP, which i would describe as difficulty in articulating my thoughts. it seems like what comes out of my mouth or in writing is not what was in my head. its much more of a problem in verbal conversation than on a forum because you can't think for too long about what you are going to say. for me, its not a problem with nerves or anything like that, i just simply have trouble putting the idea in my head into words. it's not a huge deal for me though, i don't think about it that much, but i definitely know exactly what OP is talking about.

some things that may help:

-increase your vocabulary
-if you have some thought, like an abstract thought or something that you can't explain to someone, its possible that it doesn't even make sense and thats why when you try t express it you fail. find someone you are very comfortable with to blab on about this crap that you think of, then get them to help you pick apart what you are trying to say. while frustrating, you might often learn that what you were thinking about, while seeming crystal clear in your head, was actually unexplainable nonsense, hence why you had trouble explaining it.

Re: Learning to communicate
 

Yes, a little sometimes. Probably get it from my mom, who tries to overexplain things. One thing I'm trying to do is realize I just don't have to say as much as I think I do. (I use online forums to get a lot of that out.) I'm working on saying less, and having it be more significant when I do. Then there will be a tendency for others to interrupt less often and you'll be able to get your point across while calmer. You don't need to say anything until you have a solid point formed in your mind. If an opportunity passes where you could have state your opinion, so what? There are about 6,602,224,174 people in the world who really don't care.

A good therapist or coach would be a good idea, but the trick there is finding a really good one who is worth the money. Not too easy.

Re: Learning to communicate
 

[ QUOTE ]
Whereas, in conversation there's no time to organize; it's just assumed that people's thoughts are already in a form that is digestible by others. And I don't think mine are. I have to translate my thoughts into English, if that makes sense (not that I think in Polish or Spanish or something, it's just that I don't think of my thoughts as 'words') It's as though anything I put down on paper (or electronic text) is a pale imitation of the real ideas I had, and yet it doesn't seem as though it's this way for everyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm, interesting. Did you see the documentary on the guy who kept numbers in his brain as shapes? He knew pi to thousands of places, all stored as a shape landscape. He visited New York City or somewhere, and he felt uncomfortable, like he was surrounded by the number 9 (which was big to him).

Anyway, I think you need to practice "translating" and finding your own code. Work up from "slow" social situations, like a few people sitting around a camp fire where periods can go by without much being said. Or hang around some friends who don't speak real fast so it's not hard "to get in a word edgewise." Improve from there. Do you have a friend you can "practice" talking with? He/she should allow lots of gaps/silence and waiting time. This part is in and of itself very uncomfortable for some people.

Re: Learning to communicate
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know, I don't drink. (not opposed to it, and will almost certainly drink in the future, but well, I also happen to be quite socially inept and I don't often find myself in situations where one would drink.)

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't drink a whole lot, but when I get a buzz it's a good thing for me usually - it mellows me out and takes the edge off my communication style. Try it sometime.

Re: Learning to communicate
 

I dunno if this is helpful, but it might be. Try slowing down your talking some. I used to talk way too fast. That makes it harder for people to understand the actual words that you are saying, and it makes them less polished, which means you're even more incomprehensible. Sit down with a friend and a tape recorder and try to explain something to them (perhaps why you're recording them). Play it back and listen to the speed of your speech. See if there's room to slow it down to give yourself more time to go over what you're saying.

Also, consider what you say while you're thinking. If you're nervous, you might fill your pauses with something like "er" or "um," which is bad. People will remain attentive for a surpising amount of time if you say nothing at all during a break in your speech. (Maybe trail out your final word a little or make some kind of hand gesture to indicate that you're thinking.) But if you fill up pauses with "um, um, um, um," you'll lose people almost immediately.

Re: Learning to communicate
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, consider what you say while you're thinking. If you're nervous, you might fill your pauses with something like "er" or "um," which is bad. People will remain attentive for a surpising amount of time if you say nothing at all during a break in your speech.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, some will and some won't. Maybe part of his problem is that he's has too many people he's talking to that jump in when there's a pause. Takes me back to my previous comment about saying less and having it hold more "weight" when you do say something.

Re: Learning to communicate
 

Wow, thanks guys, I have a lot to think about.

edit: I do want to reiterate that this is not about nerves. It's just as bad when I'm talking to my mom or to a pillow, as it would be if I were speaking at the SuperBowl. This is something else.

Re: Learning to communicate
 

Suppose you do get a million times better after a couple drinks. What does that mean? Is there something you can do to get close to that communication ability without having to drink?

Re: Learning to communicate
 

I had that problem as a child and then as a teen.
When I was 10 I started reading a lot ; that helped.

But what helped the most was getting a "real" girlfriend when I turned 16.
Girls love to talk, and they always want to know what you think, how you feel etc, so you end up having to put words on everything that goes through your head.

After 5 years of practice (with the same girl), I never had that problem ever again.

Re: Learning to communicate
 

[ QUOTE ]

But what helped the most was getting a "real" girlfriend when I turned 16.
Girls love to talk, and they always want to know what you think, how you feel etc, so you end up having to put words on everything that goes through your head.

After 5 years of practice (with the same girl), I never had that problem ever again.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sounds awful.

Re: Learning to communicate
 

[ QUOTE ]

Sounds awful.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, having a girlfriend is an awful experience.
Thank you for you helpful insight.

Re: Learning to communicate
 

I should have put a smiley in there, I guess.

Believe me, I am taking this seriously, but someone was going to make that joke, and I thought it'd be slightly better coming from the OP.

Re: Learning to communicate
 

Then I should've used a smiley too. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Learning to communicate
 

Kimbell,

I have the same problem whenever I'm explaining something that I'm excited about. I just have to keep reminding myself to slow down or remember to breathe when I talk. Or be like George Bush. Just pause and then say something.

Re: Learning to communicate
 

i think the key in this thread is to just smile a lot whenever you talk/post. That way even if you screw up what you were trying to say, people will still like it. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Learning to communicate
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here, I can take time, write a sentence, rewrite it, organize some paragraphs, etc., with very little pressure. When a real person is in front of me, however, I can [censored] up the smoothest logic or the funniest joke on the planet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very simple solution! Calm down, be more mellow & easy going. Practice deep breathing excersices (google) and maybe some quick meditation in the morning to clear your mind and get you going with a fresh start for the day. The worst thing you can do is focus on messing up. Stop caring/worrying about it, and you will find yourself not messing up.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know, I don't drink. (not opposed to it, and will almost certainly drink in the future, but well, I also happen to be quite socially inept and I don't often find myself in situations where one would drink.)

[/ QUOTE ]Get out more, you're in a cycle. You don't feel comfortable about talking to others, which causes you to not go to social events & socialize, which in turn causes you to grow even more distant with your communication skills.

Get out there, and don't be afraid. It's like asking someone out for a date, lots of people stress like maniacs, when the worst thing that could happen is a "no". Don't think about your constant slip ups it only makes it worse. In your transition period to socialgod, if you find yourself slipping up, learn to laugh at yourself. The more you accept & aren't afraid of your mistakes, the less you'll make them, and eventually they'll disappear.

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Learning to communicate
 

OP, how old are you?

If 18+, explain the "don't drink, but plan on it in future."

I agree with whoever said get a girlfriend. It really does work wonders. Beyond that, whoever said mellow out in general was on the right track. Try some weed or something.

Are you any good at reading/presenting stuff outloud? I think it's a valid question for purposes of determining your situation. Like, say you are given a presentation to present in front of class/co-workers, where you are going to have ample time to prepare, memorize, & practice what you are about to say. Do words flow easier then?

Re: Learning to communicate
 

I've had people recommend this .

Re: Learning to communicate
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've had people recommend this .

[/ QUOTE ]

This is good stuff.

Re: Learning to communicate
 

Here's the thing. If you're sufficiently smart and knowledgeable, there are a great deal of things that you'll never be able to explain to most people. And there are some things you won't be able to explain to anybody. Not only that, there a great deal of things you're knowledgeable about that people just don't care about. It sounds like some of your problem is not grasping that fully.

Also realize that things you learn online are very different to things you learn in the classroom, on the job, or from talking to friends. All of these things are tagged with rich syntax, a memory of the speaker's tone and intent, and a million other clues you can never get from reading text on a screen. These are the things that give you the mental order and confidence needed to discuss a topic intelligently.

A final problem may be not aligning your communication strategy with your intent. Smart, overly analytical people tend to do this a lot. Why do you talk to people? Your real reason, underneath everything, may be a desire for attention or recognition or connection - and discussing dry intellectual stuff (which just happens to be fresh in your mind) is usually a very poor way of achieving that.

These things may not necessarily apply to you but they're something to think about.

Re: Learning to communicate
 

[ QUOTE ]
OP, how old are you?

[/ QUOTE ]
20

[ QUOTE ]
If 18+, explain the "don't drink, but plan on it in future."

[/ QUOTE ]
Wish I could (explain it). I am just a sad, lonely hermit.

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with whoever said get a girlfriend. It really does work wonders. Beyond that, whoever said mellow out in general was on the right track. Try some weed or something.

[/ QUOTE ]
Okay.

[ QUOTE ]
Are you any good at reading/presenting stuff outloud? I think it's a valid question for purposes of determining your situation. Like, say you are given a presentation to present in front of class/co-workers, where you are going to have ample time to prepare, memorize, & practice what you are about to say. Do words flow easier then?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. On a related note, I was recently signing up for next semester's classes and decided to throw an intro acting class in there; we'll see what happens.

Phil,
nice post. But I don't really mind that people don't get it; my problem is that I don't explain it well. It's like when you take text and put it through a translator program, then back into English, and it's all goofy: that's what happens when I learn something from someone (or a book or forum) and then try to explain it.

Toastmasters guys,
yes, I've heard that as well. I'll think about it.

all,
thanks for the advice. I guess the thing is, I already know I should be trying to make friends, to be more confident, be a better writer, etc., but I was trying to ask about something a little more specific. Anyway, none of this stuff can hurt. I think the taperecorder suggestion is the best for what I was asking for, and I'll def put that into action.

Re: Learning to communicate
 

Learning to communicate is like going to the gym. First month is going to be rough, it's going to hurt, you're going to be discouraged. You're going to think "why am I doing this?" and so on.

You stick with it and reap the results. Communicating is NO different. The advice you've received is great, except imho it assumes you to be far more broken than you really are.

You can write a forum post, unless you're extremely hideous in real life, smell bad or have a huge amount of loser habits, you're just an average computer lover [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

A lot of those here. You've decided it's not cool to sit in your room all day. Start small. Go to the gym, learn some sports, go to toastmasters. Do stuff outside of mandatory classes.

I'm guessing the real issue is you're anti-social. The fact that you're misunderstood is just a manifestation of a larger problem [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] You're getting band-aid solutions whereas in reality I think it's going to take some pain and courage to start making positive changes, no pain no gain right? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Gl.

Re: Learning to communicate
 

this might help a little bit....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assertive

Learning this stuff has made a world of difference for me. I couldn't give you books to read about it, because psychologists taught me it. There are basically 4 ways of communication: passive, aggressive, passive-aggressive, and assertive. Assertive is DEFINITELY > others.

Yeah definitely get a girlfriend and remember somethings. People like to be around positive and encouraging people. You seem like somewhat of a negative person. You have to remember that there's no reason to be negative, since negative thoughts just breed more negative thoughts. Anytime you find yourself thinking negative thoughts, try to think more positively. When you think positively you are happier.

Re: Learning to communicate
 

Interesting problem. What sorts of "dumb" things do you say? If you're in a situation where some girl asks you "who is the most brilliant physicist of all time?" do you say "you have nice breasts?" or do you say "Isaac Hawking?"

When I started law practice I spoke waaaaaaay too fast. It took several sessions on videotape before I realized that most or all of my audiences would be patient enough to listen to me speak slowly -- and that so doing is 9849578340 times more coherent and persuasive than my natural rapid cadence. I liked that suggestion.

You might try posting a short videotape of yourself in conversation around here to assist in the discussion.

Is your situation at all audience-dependent? I read what you said above that it happens all the time, but is it less severe with your mom than a stranger? How about with small children, where you might be hyperconscious of setting your premises carefully?

BTW, most conversations are thoroughly inane. You might be surprised at how much insight you're perceived as offering.

Re: Learning to communicate
 

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting problem. What sorts of "dumb" things do you say? If you're in a situation where some girl asks you "who is the most brilliant physicist of all time?" do you say "you have nice breasts?" or do you say "Isaac Hawking?"

[/ QUOTE ]
definitely more like the second

[ QUOTE ]
When I started law practice I spoke waaaaaaay too fast. It took several sessions on videotape before I realized that most or all of my audiences would be patient enough to listen to me speak slowly -- and that so doing is 9849578340 times more coherent and persuasive than my natural rapid cadence. I liked that suggestion.

You might try posting a short videotape of yourself in conversation around here to assist in the discussion.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I need to do something like this. I won't promise a video for you guys, but I do understand the concept and I've already thought about things to record.

[ QUOTE ]
Is your situation at all audience-dependent? I read what you said above that it happens all the time, but is it less severe with your mom than a stranger? How about with small children, where you might be hyperconscious of setting your premises carefully?

[/ QUOTE ]
Ehn, not really, but of your choices I would say I definitely speak most easily to small children. At least, to my younger siblings, whom I tend to assume are infinitely brilliant and unprejudiced (so I may treat them differently subconsciously).

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, most conversations are thoroughly inane. You might be surprised at how much insight you're perceived as offering.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I mean, people have indicated to me that I'm pretty respected in real life, in terms of people knowing that I am not just spouting nonsense, that I at least have something to impart. I just feel frustrated because I'm only getting across like 20% of what I'm shooting for. (example: no one can ever tell when I'm joking.)

Re: Learning to communicate
 

If these problems are happening in mostly social situations, maybe you've been conversing at a higher level then expected?

I.e., if you're giving a dissertation talk, then complex ideas and intriguing thoughts are par for the course. But if you're chatting up a chick in a bar, then a discussion of string theory/Kant's categorical imperative/whatever deep thought you've been having lately (and many are less profound than these examples) probably won't be fully understood no matter how eloquent you are. It's a matter of calibrating your conversation to the audience. Seriously -- 90% of what we say to other people doesn't really mean anything at all; it's just verbal filler designed to build comfort and rapport. If you're looking to transmit ideas with everything you say, you're setting unrealistic (and unattainable) expectations.

A few ideas that might help things along (most of which have been mentioned by others before):

1. Read and talk -- a lot. When you read, think about how the author uses language to communicate ideas. When you talk, think about *nothing* -- just let it flow. It'll feel strange at first, but the point isn't to sound smart or to communicate ideas; it's to get in the habit of speaking. At some point, it becomes second nature.

2. If you're really having a problem in casual conversation, think of 4 or 5 interesting stories about your life and experiences. If it helps, write them out. You now have a bunch of conversation fillers that you can bust out anytime you hit a conversational lull. You don't need to memorize them word for word -- just the general idea, and fill in the details as you go along.

3. Slow down! Most people I know who have difficulty speaking either feel that their words outrace their ideas, or vice versa. Really, these are two sides of the same problem. If it's the former, then just pause long enough to picture the words in your mind before you say them. If the latter, then try to slow down your thought processes, and communicate just one idea at a time. Often, the conversation will stray, and you won't be able to communicate the whole idea you had in mind. That's fine! Again, outside a professional/academic setting, talking isn't mostly about communicating ideas, it's about creating comfort and rapport. Don't force the issue.

4. If you really want to improve fast, then something like Toastmasters or another "forced speaking" activity is a great bet. Just being forced to stand up in front of an audience and communicate breaks down many of the anxieties that tie peoples' tongues in everday situations.

Re: Learning to communicate
 

my thoughts:

-work hard to isolate the problem, problems, or biggest problem. you say you have a hard time explaining things/expressing your views on the subject at hand. since i'm assuming you actually know what you're talking about (or you would have called your post "Learning to bs") the problem is either quickly organizing your thoughts and preparing them for delivery or actually speaking.

-if the former
i'd suggest spending time journalling, or writing in general (articles, blogs, etc). it's probably important you don't just write "i did this today, and this, and this" but focus on what you're having trouble doing, which is explaining a complex story and idea. furthermore, make these "stream of consciousness" since you mention this problem does not cross over to forums, since you have time to edit, conceptualize, etc. you want to be getting words on the screen or paper as fast as you can.

-if the latter
one of the best things to do is practice, starting with areas in which you are most comfortable. people here have given you many suggestions along the line of acquiring practice socializing and speaking. do not be so quick to put off "nerves". many of us can have anxious and nervous reactions (and probably do to some degree) that manifest themselves in a variety of ways of which the only thing in common is lack of success. there's no shame in it, it's no big deal. there are a zillion different people who can help you in all sorts of ways depending on the angle you're coming from, so i wouldnt know what to suggest (posts here are good examples, though). the key, though (in my opinion), is to make sure you're relaxed. signs you are not relaxed are tensing muscles, flexing your posture forward, speaking too fast, and holding your breath. keep aware of these things and if you see them happening, try to consciously work on it. maybe that will help you :-)