Media Coverage of AP scandal: Good or bad
 

Hope it's okay to start a new thread about this specific debate. Obviously the AP threads are getting pretty long and crazy and it becomes difficult to hold a discussion on one topic when you have about 10 different topics being covered at a time.

Anyway, if another AP thread is inappropriate then mea culpa and feel free to lock or whatever.


Anyway, from the most recent I hinted that I didn't think mass-media exposure of this was a good thing.
More concerned with the lobbyists having all kinds of ammunition of how these unregulated 3rd world sites can just walk-away with your money at any time so we need to ban them all.
Obviously the same argument can be made to regulate this stuff WITHIN the U.S. But the anti-internet-gambling folks will probably benefit more from the negative spin they can put on this imo.


In the same thread Jim Kuhn said:


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This series of events could be very good or very bad for online poker. I think it could turn out very bad. Millions of losing players may think 'they were cheated' and not come back to online poker.

This may also add fuel for politicians wanting to ban online poker and those 'on the fence'. They may state something to the effect 'see this is why the legislation was passed and we are trying to ban online poker altogether. You can never be sure about cheating online and we need to do everything we can to 'protect our citizens''. Or some other similar political bs statements. They already had the chance to regulate and tax online gambline and declined. In this sense I am very glad to be a Libertarian!

Thank you,

Jim Kuhn

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Later in the thread five4suited said:

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Sorry for spamming, but the story is up on MSNBC now:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21364557/



I've been reading for the last two days and was on the fence about whether mass media exposure would be a good thing. I understand and agree that in the long run, online poker will be better regulated and better off because of it. There must be full disclosure here if online poker is going to survive. However, this msnbc article is going to be read by a whole lot of American fish, and their reaction is not going to be positive for online poker at all.

Think about all the people who suck at poker and donate $500 and never return. They read MSNBC, not 2+2. Every parent of every college kid who maxed out a credit card will have a cause to rally 'round. They are the baby boomers, they are rich and they are accustomed to getting their way. Those of you who are in college now will be able to confirm this; I imagine you'll start hearing from randoms that "they knew it was fixed" shortly.

Throw in the fundamentalist Republicans and there will be a backlash, to say the least. For those who are "independents" where online poker is concerned, this MSNBC article might be the only one they read.

Now that the cat is out of the bag, so to speak, our only recourse is a full-court press to ensure that the information out there is accurate, well-reasoned and includes the phrase "this is an isolated incident." We're gonna have to work real hard to make sure this ends well for American online players. I think before it's all said and done, I'll be glad I live in LA.

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Re:
 

Anyway, I do hope the issue gets resolved and I understand the point that the more pressure is put on AP the more likely it is they may actually come clean as well as pay back all the affected players.

But I just don't get all giddy thinking about this story being splashed all over the AP and perhaps eventually making it to ESPN or network TV.

If it's going to happen anyway though perhaps I should drop a line to a friend of mine who works at Fox News and alert him to the situation. If it HAS to be reported in the mass-media I would at least appreciate it if they could get the facts correct.
There's a very good chance that the spin they put or just their own basic misunderstandings of internet-gambling could result in some really wacky and inaccurate accounts of what happened and is happening.

Re: Media Coverage of AP scanal: Good thing or bad thing
 

Short term it's obviously bad, potentially long term I think it could be good.

Re: Media Coverage of AP scanal: Good thing or bad thing
 

Can't see an upside here.

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Can't see an upside here.

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Re: Media Coverage of AP scanal: Good thing or bad thing
 

Unfortunately, it's horrific for the short term. Long term I think it could be very beneficial to poker online because it will wake up any new and/or poker sites now to what can happen if you try some stunt like this.

Re: Media Coverage of AP scanal: Good thing or bad thing
 

I wish this could have been done quietly. Once that super handhistory file was found the balance of power changed. As I'd hoped all a long, i think the people ripped off, the people who hold 2p2/p5s sway and some stat geeks should have all gone somewhere else and discussed this. The power to make this blow up or keep to keep this reasonable would be in our/their hands. They money would be returned. Online poker wouldnt have died. It would be just quiet enough that nytimes/msnbc wouldnt be ahold of it yet.

There is still the very long term problem of accountability. With the new balance of power I think they could demand AP to shut down indeffinitely. Do a number of real independant audits. Then hold a discussion with the relevant poker players, AP and the heads of other poker sites. As a community we could make a public statement with our spin before the mass media gets ahold.

Re: Media Coverage of AP scanal: Good thing or bad thing
 

I think in the short term it will be bad, but not horrible, and the games won't dry up

longterm I think the outlook is good

absolute's outlook might suck, but I think online poker will be fine

Re: Media Coverage of AP scanal: Good thing or bad thing
 

ugh, so terrible. all the regulars will stay, and fish will leave the games (not to mention he fact that fish will have an excuse not to deposit)

Re: Media Coverage of AP scanal: Good thing or bad thing
 

meh, I think you guys are overly worried about the lack of influx of American fish. I think that already ended with the UIGEA.

It's unfortunate that this does give ammo to the "I told you so, let's ban online gambling!" crowd, but it's an even stronger case for regulation, IMO. I guess we'll find out.

Re: Media Coverage of AP scanal: Good thing or bad thing
 

I'm a bit less concerned about the games drying up from too many fish getting paranoid and more concerned with further UIGEA type enforcement and crack-downs...particularly if some gung-ho Republican gets some more shoves from the Christian Coalition...stuff like that.

Although the general reputation of online-poker as a whole could definitely suffer a significant hit and that will naturally lead to fewer recreation-players/fish.

I don't think this is just something about 'bringing down' Absolute or whatever language you want to use.
The hit will be felt by Stars and FT as well since I suspect they will be likely to just be lumped-in with Absolute as "Illegal 3rd world internet-gambling sites" in simplistic and inaccurate media portrayals.

IOW - I don't think people will talk about how scummy Absolute is. I think they will talk about how scummy ALL of internet-gambling is.

Re: Media Coverage of AP scanal: Good thing or bad thing
 

Media coverage, if it is fair and well done, is never a bad thing imo. I don't believe in any sort of censorship in that light, and trying to hide that the AP thing happened seems silly.

Re: Media Coverage of AP scanal: Good thing or bad thing
 

How often is media-coverage of internet-gambling fair and well-done?

I'm not advocating hiding the info from the media or anything like that.

But in some threads I've seen some posters practically celebrating that this story is getting more and more publicity and also advocating contacting as many of the major media outlets as possible to get the word out there.
They seem to believe that such exposure would help solve this specific Absolute situation and they may be correct. But I believe it's possible that far more harm than good could be done by pushing this story on the public.

So no, I'm not advocating a cover-up or anything like that.

Re: Media Coverage of AP scanal: Good thing or bad thing
 

Mods please lock since 'new' thread about AP aren't allowed.

Not that I think these issues shouldn't be discussed, but apparently you aren't allowed to start new threads about it.

Re: Media Coverage of AP scanal: Good thing or bad thing
 

ADANTHARRR! WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!?!?!

Re: Media Coverage of AP scanal: Good thing or bad thing
 

i remember a thing called uigea and people whining everywhere about how fish are going to disappear completely and whatnot. this just sounds like it.
maybe the next few months might become slightly tougher but after that this whole incident will be forgotten.
the upside might be that pokerrooms will be even more concerned to give an image of "absolute" honesty which might therefore recreate the trust in online poker.
this incident also adds an argument to the pro regulation side. as well as the "ban it altogether" side but as you see now and some very old fellows might have seen in the 1930s with regards to alcohol: you cant keep people from what they like/ are addicted to

Re: Media Coverage of AP scanal: Good thing or bad thing
 

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It's unfortunate that this does give ammo to the "I told you so, let's ban online gambling!" crowd, but it's an even stronger case for regulation, IMO. I guess we'll find out.

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Re: Media Coverage of AP scanal: Good thing or bad thing
 

I think what GW was trying to say is "no, more AP threads"

well, this one's decent, anyway, although it should probably be moved to the zoo or something

in fact, I'm a mod, so I'm going to do that!

Re: Media Coverage of AP scanal: Good thing or bad thing
 

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I'm a bit less concerned about the games drying up from too many fish getting paranoid and more concerned with further UIGEA type enforcement and crack-downs...particularly if some gung-ho Republican gets some more shoves from the Christian Coalition...stuff like that.

Although the general reputation of online-poker as a whole could definitely suffer a significant hit and that will naturally lead to fewer recreation-players/fish.

I don't think this is just something about 'bringing down' Absolute or whatever language you want to use.
The hit will be felt by Stars and FT as well since I suspect they will be likely to just be lumped-in with Absolute as "Illegal 3rd world internet-gambling sites" in simplistic and inaccurate media portrayals.

IOW - I don't think people will talk about how scummy Absolute is. I think they will talk about how scummy ALL of internet-gambling is.

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I made a similar response already in legislation forum, but I think that if we can try to "spin" this scandal as being a result of the shrinking marketplace due to UIGEA and u.s. gamblers being forced to play at less reputable sites, then it could be positive, or at least to help balance the negative aspects.

Whether this is actually true or a gross exageration has little to do with it. The anti-online-gambling establishment will certainly spin this their way, whether true or an exageration.

Re: Media Coverage of AP scanal: Good thing or bad thing
 

Bob,
I don't really have a good grasp of how big of a story this is to big media outlets. But if it gets real air time on CNN and Fox and gets a good page in the Times, etc, it's very important that people on our side get interviewed and say the right thing. Basically "There have been some really shady sites involved in online poker. Stars and FT are as reliable as possible. If online poker were regulated, we wouldn't have to worry about the shady sites."

Re: Media Coverage of AP scanal: Good thing or bad thing
 

im probably in the minority here, but i dont think this will have much of an impact overall (traffic-wise.) AP may get hit hard, but i dont see this stopping people from playing on other sites.

in response to people who cant see an upside. im sure every major poker site is watching this carefully. and none of them wants to follow APs footsteps here. surely its a good thing for other sites to see all of this and double check that every precaution is being taken so that they dont make the same mistakes.

Re: Media Coverage of AP scanal: Good thing or bad thing
 

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Short term it's obviously bad, potentially long term I think it could be good.

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Re: Media Coverage of AP scanal: Good thing or bad thing
 

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Can't see an upside here.

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Re: Media Coverage of AP scanal: Good thing or bad thing
 

GREAT!

Re: Media Coverage of AP scanal: Good thing or bad thing
 

do you guys think AP will shut down?

Re: Media Coverage of AP scandal: Good or bad
 

for me it's pretty simple. The owners and management of absolute poker where either directly responsible for or complacent of money being stolen from it's customers. I can forgive a flaw in security if it is aknowledged and corrected. I cant forgive owners/management deciding the best way to handle the incident is to lie/coverup/deny and hope it goes away. I don't think absolute is worthy of our trust anymore and should be out of business.

I just don't see any way that will happen quietly. Honesty in dealing with costumers is what we need above all else in this industry, and it has been pretty poor in general since the begining. If it's neccesary for my income to decrease some to make an example of absolute and hopefully encourage more honesty and transperancy in the industry in the future, I'll take the hit.

Re: Media Coverage of AP scanal: Good thing or bad thing
 

I think you guys are missing the major point here. If AP is allowed to get away with covering up this scandal and continue lying to its customers, what do you think will happen if a cheater is caught in the future? You better believe that all the other sites are closely monitoring the AP scandal and if AP gets away unpunished with covering up the allegations and the standard issue denial of all accusations, then we will be sending the message to ALL other poker sites that if a cheater ever gets caught on their site they can just deny all accusations and quietly sweep the incident under the rug!

The way that AP has handled the situation so far was easily predictable. AP will do and say anything they can to avoid admitting that someone/some people compromised the security of their site. Admitting this would be devastating to their image in an industry that is so strongly founded on a trust between the customer and the site. If other poker sites see AP get away with this, they will go the exact same route that AP is trying to take right now.

The only way that we will get AP to admit full responsibility is to put immense pressure on them and the best way to do that is to get this story into the mainstream media all over the country/world. If we don’t do this the integrity and safety of all future online poker gaming will be completely compromised. Cheaters will see that there will be no consequences if they are ever caught because it will be clear that they will be protected by the sites in the interest of self-preservation.

Re: Media Coverage of AP scanal: Good thing or bad thing
 

It may look bad to the general pubic, and confirm their belief that online gambling is "rigged" for lack of a better term, but in the end the truth is always a good thing.

I could see this eventually leading to real regulation and oversight, which in my opinion would be a good thing.

Re: Media Coverage of AP scanal: Good thing or bad thing
 

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ugh, so terrible. all the regulars will stay, and fish will leave the games (not to mention he fact that fish will have an excuse not to deposit)

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really appreciate the 2c of yet another retard who has 300 posts in a week

Re: Media Coverage of AP scanal: Good thing or bad thing
 

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ugh, so terrible. all the regulars will stay, and fish will leave the games (not to mention he fact that fish will have an excuse not to deposit)

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really appreciate the 2c of yet another retard who has 300 posts in a week

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Who happens to be fairly correct.

Re: Media Coverage of AP scandal: Good or bad
 

i wasnt suggesting a cover up (and my post was as close as it gets.) I just keep seeing post after post with idealistic ideas that dont have much to do with reality. I actually saw 1 post that says something along the lines of "Its in APs best interest to give back the loot and admit to everything. Next the company goes bellyup." as if there is no contradiction.

I just this had unravelled slower that way the truth could have a chance. As it is now the public will see two sides. A bunch of stat geeks (with agendas) saying everything is fine now. And then u'll see some dumb trustfund kid saying "oh knew that was rigged." Even withint he news networks themselves i wouldnt be surprized if reporters cant help but be bias into saying "Oh [censored] yeah! I knew it was rigged." people will be so happy to validate their losses, etc. no one is gonna let us

Re: Media Coverage of AP scanal: Good thing or bad thing
 

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ugh, so terrible. all the regulars will stay, and fish will leave the games (not to mention he fact that fish will have an excuse not to deposit)

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really appreciate the 2c of yet another retard who has 300 posts in a week

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Who happens to be fairly correct.

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Yup all the fish will be gone in a week (and another 300 posts). PS and FT are going under...

edit: btw this is probably just another incarnation of pokergolffiend and/or similar downies

Re: Media Coverage of AP scanal: Good thing or bad thing
 

Look, at this point the cat is out of the bag. The mainstream media is beginning to get a hold of the story now, so there's no use in pulling punches now. The best thing we can do is aggressively push the story into the national spotlight and have some people or organizations, like the PPA to do damage control and spin the story into a positive light for online poker players.

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ugh, so terrible. all the regulars will stay, and fish will leave the games (not to mention he fact that fish will have an excuse not to deposit)

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really appreciate the 2c of yet another retard who has 300 posts in a week

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Who happens to be fairly correct.

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Yup all the fish will be gone in a week (and another 300 posts). PS and FT are going under...

edit: btw this is probably just another incarnation of pokergolffiend and/or similar downies

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He's correct in that this has the potential to scare fish away without affecting regulars. This is a fraction of the size of anti-poker legislation, but when that was happening there were a lot of people saying "omg all the fish will leave" and a lot of people saying "omg chill, it'll be the same." Did all the fish leave? No. Did the games stay the same? No.

Re: Media Coverage of AP scanal: Good thing or bad thing
 

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He's correct in that this has the potential to scare fish away without affecting regulars. This is a fraction of the size of anti-poker legislation, but when that was happening there were a lot of people saying "omg all the fish will leave" and a lot of people saying "omg chill, it'll be the same." Did all the fish leave? No. Did the games stay the same? No.

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He isn't correct because he didn't state the case like a non downie (as you just did). He made an over the top statement. Yes this has the potential to do harm, no one is going to argue that.

sigh, since we are on the topic, I might as well throw in my retarded 2c as well:

Something is a little stinky with the timing and circumstances:

1. during the reg comment period
2. what appears to be blatant, retarded cheating, ie 10 high calldown. (he called me with 10 high!)
3. complete hand history + some IP addys document released to user??? That is bad enough by itself and would be a problem under normal circumstances.

Not saying this all couldn't have happened just by chance or that the it could be chance + whistleblower or whatever but it is strange.

Re: Media Coverage of AP scandal: Good or bad
 

Seems to me that if it's presented in the "The pro players who have an interest in checking the stats on such things noticed that in this instance, the numbers didn't stack up" light, then very little damage will be done.

It might be a bit much for it to look like a positive (although I believe it could) but I really don't see much long term damage coming from it as long as someone gets the proper idiot-version to the media.

Lori

Re: Media Coverage of AP scandal: Good or bad
 

Guys,
A huge % of the fish think they're pros, so they're not going anywhere. A huge % of the remaining fish already think they're being cheated but play anyway, so they're not going anywhere.

Like, yeah, we'll lose fish. But the games won't die.

Re: Media Coverage of AP scandal: Good or bad
 

Obviously it's the end of online poker - Just like how nobody invests in the stock market anymore since Enron, Worldcom and the dotcom bubble burst.

Re: Media Coverage of AP scandal: Good or bad
 

lori - yeah, i mostly agree I think.

This is why I was considering contacting my producer friend at Fox News just to steer him in the right direction if he thought it was a story worth pursuing.
He's really good at what he does but is completely clueless about anything gambling-related and probably would only have a vague notion of where to start.

Re: Media Coverage of AP scandal: Good or bad
 

Bob, please do that.