Things it took me a while to learn part 4, Bankroll management
 

If there’s only one thing I could teach or imprint upon another poker player it’s how important bankroll management is. There are a ton of talented poker players who are extremely capable in the games they play, but due to poor bankroll management stay stuck around broke for years.

What seems to be the standard rule for MTT bankroll management is as follows: Always have at least 100 times your average buy in. I say average buy in because this allows for a player to ‘take shots’ without over extending.

As far as the maximum amount of your roll you should put on one event, that mostly comes down to your preference, but I personally (and these days I’m a pretty big BR nit) can’t imagine putting down much more than 5% of my roll on one event.

The largest problem with playing outside of your bankroll is that for most players it tends to force up emotional involvement. Building a bankroll and then blowing it due to mismanagement is mentally crippling to almost everyone and often results in going even higher and faster.

I encourage people to not try to move up to fast and when they do to do so in moderation. Creating a bankroll so big that the stakes you play makes it nearly impossible to busto but gives you room to take a shot now and then is truly the ideal.

As always, if anyone has a question or needs me to elaborate, just ask.

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 4, Bankroll management
 

Short and simple... I think bankroll management is just as easy if you can control yourself. I want to emphasize on the importance of 'taking shots' since it's a must-do in a tournament player's evolution. The 5% rule sounds like a good one to stick to.

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 4, Bankroll management
 

Bond,

Two years ago I sucked at poker and took wild shots and won 1.8K at a live tournament in NYC only hours after cursing out a train conductor for calling me a liar (I told him I didn't know the train fee was $11, I had $10 on me). I ran the sickest streak ever that night - everytime there was a push, I had the nuts. I then ran it up to 3.2K playing limit. I then lost it all one night with a fever playing NL400 and NL1000.

Now I'm grinding and I'm getting pretty good (IMO). My BR has been quite consistent with what you said. But, it's a grind. I have never hit such a heater as I did that night in NYC. Is Karma slapping me around - a hefty reward for what was ultimately violent immaturity coupled with a slow grind now that I'm more mature.

In terms of Bankroll management, what can I do to get a sick heater?

Barry

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 4, Bankroll management
 

Completely agree with this post, as my online (and live) BR fluctuate with such swings i find myself occasional going busto, and struggle to rebuild. At the moment im doing ok, and building steadily, but is there any posts/ links/ threads whatev's on how to build a bankroll effectively?

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 4, Bankroll management
 

I just want to say that I miss the days of never ending bonuses and casino whoring. It was impossible to go broke then.

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 4, Bankroll management
 

[ QUOTE ]

In terms of Bankroll management, what can I do to get a sick heater?

[/ QUOTE ]

You have such good understandings of the game and I'm sure your next big score is just around the corner. Honestly, I'm surprised you only have that one time big score under your belt? Or is it that you just don't practice what you preach?

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 4, Bankroll management
 

I am very guilty of poor BR management. Last night I had a bad run on cards playing limit so I played a 6max SNG that was about 20% of my BR, won that, and then won two more heads-up matches that were around 15% on my BR. Luckly I won and booked a decent profit for the night but I know that it could have turned ugly quick and I could be re-buying today. The problem I need to adjust (and I suspect a lot of people do) is the feeling that playing at lower stakes is boring, or a waste of time. I know all the BR management principles but sometimes it's hard to stick to them.

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 4, Bankroll management
 

What someone would consider a "bankroll" is also different from person to person...some people have a good job, play poker mainly for fun & could reload easily, pros obviously different. Also some people might have a bankroll of X but just might not be able to face losing more than 0.5X...etc. That's one of the problems with trying to address this issue.

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 4, Bankroll management
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am very guilty of poor BR management.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I wasn't employed, I'd be out of the game a long time
ago! Good post! The other big important thing often
ignored is game selection. I'm not a super player, but
I am if I sit amongst weak spots!

-ZEN

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 4, Bankroll management
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

In terms of Bankroll management, what can I do to get a sick heater?

[/ QUOTE ]

You have such good understandings of the game and I'm sure your next big score is just around the corner. Honestly, I'm surprised you only have that one time big score under your belt? Or is it that you just don't practice what you preach?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I can answer that, publicly, since it may provide some insight (doubt it)?:

Well, Rocco, back last year, I basically only played cash games, for the wrong reasons, without thinking at all about the game. I had one "big score" when I luckboxed in a tourney. You could play this game for 20 years based on emotion and "competitive spirit" as opposed to logic/match and not make a buck. You could find yourself 3-betting in all the wrong spots for a year if you are so inclined.

I only started playing tournaments and actually posting/reading in SSMTT about February of this year. A couple of months I made a lot of really brash plays - I think experimentation is important to an extent. I probably lost like 10 to 15 buy ins just making "moves" on my gut rather than on hand ranges. You know what? That's fine because it weathers you a little. You become a little hardened, which is very important in late game.

I play Part-time and have like 200 tournaments and 300 SNGs (mostly 6 max) under my belt since then. Maybe the biggest problem is that I don't play enough. I also think I learn slow, but I say this with as little ego as possible, I learn well.

By the way, guys, my BIGGEST problem was bankroll management and wanting to move up where play is "respectable." Seriously - stay down and learn and be comfortable with your roll. I promised myself that if I could build from $50 in March and make a nice score, I would do nothing but play $10 SNGs and small tournaments until I built my roll. In finished 5th in a FTP $75, which took me to about 1K. Now, many players will say "well, if I can win that, I should just start playing $50s and compete against thinking players" Well, you're [censored] wrong. You lose four $50s due to variance and/or bad play, and you just lost 20% of your stack, and it stings like a bitch. Wouldn't you rather break even in 4 $10s and learn that your push with KJo from UTG is NOT going to work? Yes, please, after two years of BR management hell, I would, anytime. In the past, I'd play NL400 with $800 and cripple myself. Or $20 SNGs at 200. Without reading or writing considered posts. This time, I took the alternative route. But I still gripe like a beast [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] - to each his own.

By the way, why do I speak of 6-max SNGs so much? Here's what I think. It's because you will be FORCED to make more than 1 decision for your life during a 45 minute period. You will learn that at a 1500 stack, you HAVE to have a structured plan. You will be in a perennial blind war after the first half an hour. You will constantly be under some kind of heat, which can only make you saltier and wiser. If anything, you will stop posting stuff like "What do I do with AK here?" or "I have 88 on the bubble, what do I do?" Preflop plays start to become automatic, and you will see that those automatic plays are just the tip of the iceberg. Maybe most importantly, you will eventually gather that being short stacked with ~900 at 40/80 does not necessarily mean the tournament is over for you. Even when deeper, good plays have to be made (you could lose a ton in SNGs if you don't make good short stacked decisions and just start WTF pushing or making awkward raises and folding). Because I have a suspicion that this mentality. a achilles heel for a lot of otherwise good players. I know I've been in that boat for months - talk about not practicing what you preach).

18-max SNGs can also be quite nice. I don't play them as much, but the bottom line is this: at the 9 max final tables, the blinds are going to be tough and you are going to have to make precise push bot decisions from all sorts of positions. Also, 1st prize is usually quite nice (on FTP, 20/18 pays $144 for first and the competition is usually very soft, about 1 15 min of your time).

I feel like I've become better over the past month or so by playing a lot of HU100 (FTP - they should have HU50, wish they did) at 50BB. OK, so what does this do? Well, one, it can make you money because you play against flop donks. Two, you are forced to blind battle every step of the way. Three, you are forced to a decision on every street. You learn not to be too loose in the BB (Hamnegger - sorry for calling you out [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]), how to small ball, how to commit your opponents, how to make quick adjusments, and so forth. You also get closer to the mind of the donk rather than having to watch as a 3rd party while he dukes it out with minbets against his buddy.

I'd say that I started "practicing what I preached" in like June of this year. That's why I have become a better poster. But it all starts with bankroll and finding good learning forums - 6 max SNGs are the great if you want to be forced to make a lot of decisions. HU is great for learning blind battles, especially if you can find a 50BB donk. And, of course, playing tournaments within your BR limits is key because that's how I feel I've developed a better attitude, which I think, when push comes to shove, is the #1 most dangerous weapon for any player to have.

Of course, you have to play tournaments more than SNGs, which may be my pitfall. But the bottom line is that in terms of a pyschological perspective (BR wise), I've finally stopped concentrating, I think, on making "big moves" and "competing" and so on and just decided to try to make good decisions. If I fall into that category of "better poster than player," well that sucks. But my plays are merging very close to my posts [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. And that can't be bad.


Barry

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 4, Bankroll management
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

In terms of Bankroll management, what can I do to get a sick heater?

[/ QUOTE ]

You have such good understandings of the game and I'm sure your next big score is just around the corner. Honestly, I'm surprised you only have that one time big score under your belt? Or is it that you just don't practice what you preach?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I can answer that, publicly, since it may provide some insight (doubt it)?:

Well, Rocco, back last year, I basically only played cash games, for the wrong reasons, without thinking at all about the game. I had one "big score" when I luckboxed in a tourney. You could play this game for 20 years based on emotion and "competitive spirit" as opposed to logic/match and not make a buck. You could find yourself 3-betting in all the wrong spots for a year if you are so inclined.

I only started playing tournaments and actually posting/reading in SSMTT about February of this year. A couple of months I made a lot of really brash plays - I think experimentation is important to an extent. I play Part-time and have like 200 tournaments and 300 SNGs under my belt since then. Maybe the biggest problem is that I don't play enough. I also think I learn slow, but I say this with as little ego as possible, I learn well.

I'd say that I started "practicing what I preached" in July of this year. If I fall into that category of "better poster than player," well that sucks. But my plays are merging very close to my posts. And that can't be bad.

fwiw, of the 200 tourneys I've played, I've had a few "nice scores." Just not the coveted 2 - 5K, which I'd love to have and ocassionally gripe about not getting to (it would behoove me to stop the griping).

Barry

[/ QUOTE ]


Barry,

I've played MTTs for 20 months or so (not always exclusively) and I have never had a 4 figure cash. I've had two very near 4-figure cashes, but never had a 4-figure cash. Part of the reason is of course that I play in a lot of "low variance" MTTs with small fields that produce lots of cashes in 3 figure ranges. But I don't think it is all that uncommon to go 300 MTTs w/out a major cash (depending on the types of MTTs you play).

Sherman

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 4, Bankroll management
 

Thanks, Sherman. Please see amended response, I think there is a lot of good stuff there (I tried to make it more wisdom orientated and less self-[censored]-aggrandizing).

Barry

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 4, Bankroll management
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks, Sherman. Please see amended response, I think there is a lot of good stuff there (I tried to make it more wisdom orientated and less self-[censored]-aggrandizing).

Barry

[/ QUOTE ]

Good post, Barry. Very inspiring and it probably applies more or less directly to lots of poker players. Even if it seems like everyone starts winning as soon as they begin posting here, it's about as far off from the truth as it can be. So, I think your post might inspire those who are still waiting for the big score and will work as consolidation for those who thinks "everyone" is winning constantly.

Based solely upon quality of posts, I won't be surprised if you and Sherman starts racking up nice scores very soon. You are definitely among the top 10 regular posters in SSMTT.

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 4, Bankroll management
 

Great discussion here!

Bond, you should either sticky these or make the main
post have an index to your past wise words.

-ZEN

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 4, Bankroll management
 

I made a personal calculator that I update and adjust constantly.

Currently it runs over 35~ games with 10 spots for HUSNG, 10 spots for low variance games, and 10 spots for NLHEMTT, 1 spot for LHE, LO8, Stud, Stud8, and Razz and 1 for HORSE.

It self adjusts to allow me to take shots depending on my current trend of running; I'm about un-bustable. That said, I tend to run on the nit side of the MTTSNG side of it because I can't redeposit and I'm a recreational player. The HUSNG and MTTSNG serve to control my bankroll variance and increase my ability playing HU and late-game. When I make FTs, I plan to win them - mostly because I'm the most experienced shorthanded and HU player at the table; at least that's my goal.

But yes, my bankroll is entirely self-adjusting and allows me to make shots (I punish myself a lot for taking bigger shots if I sat into say, the 50/50 on FTP and can't unregister. I calculate higher than my allotted and my calculator auto-adjusts the rest of my games to average out my buy-ins to make up for the shot.

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 4, Bankroll management
 

I've been playing mtts since feb. of 2006, I've probably played somewhere in the neighborhood of 300 mtts and haven't had a 4 figure cash. I've had 4 or so 3 figure cashes, I've been cl in the final 5% of a few big guaranteed mtts and have gotten super unlucky to not make a ft of a big pay out mtt. Of course since I've had a decent bank roll and what I think is a solid understanding of poker for small stakes I've concentrated mostly on sngs until this month.

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 4, Bankroll management
 

great post again!
they should be added to the anthology and that post needs an update aswell!

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 4, Bankroll management
 

I've been away awhile. but gona add my 2 cents to the argument...

IMO, the key to learning MTTs and BRM, especially when building a bankroll is to find a site which has a large array of smaller field tournaments.

This will hopefully allow you to play many tournaments in a session and allow you to become far more familiar with the bubble and end-game scenarios, whilst also learning about the early and middle game (although these are significantly shorter here and will need to be worked on when you play in larger field tournaments).

This is mean you cash more regularly, even if you are a bad player, but more importantly, will highlight areas of your game you are weakest at. For example, do you always arrive near the end game with too few chips?

The more experience of the different stages of the game you get, the better and quicker you will learn and adapt your game.

I cant think of better advice than this, other than reiterate the points already made by Bond (100x buy-in, 5% of BR on a shot)

Mr.P

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 4, Bankroll management
 

Forgive me for being a tard, but I can't find part 3 . . . any help?

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 4, Bankroll management
 

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 4, Bankroll management
 

I would like to have an option to self restict my buy-ins, like for example $55 MTTs and SNGs, 0.5/1 cash. If i want to raise my limits there would be a couple of days delay. They do have depositing limits working like this.

At least it could save me spewing drunk after barnight.
Been there, done that [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 4, Bankroll management
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would like to have an option to self restict my buy-ins, like for example $55 MTTs and SNGs, 0.5/1 cash. If i want to raise my limits there would be a couple of days delay. They do have depositing limits working like this.

At least it could save me spewing drunk after barnight.
Been there, done that [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]


Awesome idea. Think this wouldn't get approved by Stars though as busting means more deposits into their "community" - but I love the idea.

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 4, Bankroll management
 

Very nice thread full of interesting infos.
Barry you did a great post especially for people like me who are in "where is the leak" mode: shorcuts to master the different phases of an MTT are gold.

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 4, Bankroll management
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

In terms of Bankroll management, what can I do to get a sick heater?

[/ QUOTE ]

You have such good understandings of the game and I'm sure your next big score is just around the corner. Honestly, I'm surprised you only have that one time big score under your belt? Or is it that you just don't practice what you preach?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I can answer that, publicly, since it may provide some insight (doubt it)?:

Well, Rocco, back last year, I basically only played cash games, for the wrong reasons, without thinking at all about the game. I had one "big score" when I luckboxed in a tourney. You could play this game for 20 years based on emotion and "competitive spirit" as opposed to logic/match and not make a buck. You could find yourself 3-betting in all the wrong spots for a year if you are so inclined.

I only started playing tournaments and actually posting/reading in SSMTT about February of this year. A couple of months I made a lot of really brash plays - I think experimentation is important to an extent. I play Part-time and have like 200 tournaments and 300 SNGs under my belt since then. Maybe the biggest problem is that I don't play enough. I also think I learn slow, but I say this with as little ego as possible, I learn well.

I'd say that I started "practicing what I preached" in July of this year. If I fall into that category of "better poster than player," well that sucks. But my plays are merging very close to my posts. And that can't be bad.

fwiw, of the 200 tourneys I've played, I've had a few "nice scores." Just not the coveted 2 - 5K, which I'd love to have and ocassionally gripe about not getting to (it would behoove me to stop the griping).

Barry

[/ QUOTE ]


Barry,

I've played MTTs for 20 months or so (not always exclusively) and I have never had a 4 figure cash. I've had two very near 4-figure cashes, but never had a 4-figure cash. Part of the reason is of course that I play in a lot of "low variance" MTTs with small fields that produce lots of cashes in 3 figure ranges. But I don't think it is all that uncommon to go 300 MTTs w/out a major cash (depending on the types of MTTs you play).

Sherman

[/ QUOTE ]

This is refreshing to read because it sums up my situation so similarly. TY for sharing.

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 4, Bankroll management
 

Bumping this because, like a lot of you, I've struggled with effective bankroll management. But I think I've come up with a plan and I'd like some feedback.

A little background first.....notice my Reg. date and number of posts....been here a while, and not a real active poster. I'm a recreational player - but have that dream - WSOP ME, big cash in the Sunday Million etc. This dream has on several occassions busted me or nearly busted me.

Despite having a slightly positve ROI (3% woo!) I realized finally, why I haven't had better success. My ITM percentage is fine, my percentage going deep (FT's, wins etc is fine.) The problem is playing outside of my bankroll far too often.

See if this sounds familiar if you're a SSMTT'r. Deposit $50 or $100. Enter a couple of $4 180's - god they're disgustingly soft - "god how does that donk make that call." OOOh, look a $11R Turbo to the Sunday Game - sweet - qualified! T$ Baby - $215 of them!! On a roll... $11R $35k guarantee, another $11R Sat, $39 Sat, and a few days later, where'd my $T go? Sound familiar? It's my history over the last couple of years. Sure, I've had some nice cashes along the way, and actually managed to go a year and a half playing WAY over my BR surviving mainly by Sats to the Sunday Million.

Now, I'm 42, and most of you are young pups, but the wisdom some of you possess, is beyond your years. One nugget came in Timex's Well post...talk about a young pup! In it he said that one of the things that led to his success was he learned to not chase the big score w/o the bankroll. (Can't remember exactly how he said it, but that was the jist).

So after 2 years of haphazard tourney entries and struggling to stay afloat, I've become a B/R nit. In fact, I've put together a set of rules that I've been following for almost thirty days now - I know, small sample, but hear me out.

See, I checked my stats on OPR for the $2 Sats to the $100k on Stars. On a small sample size, I discovered I had a 40% ITM. Doing the math, I thought, hey, here's my answer.

Here are my rules: (feedback wanted)
1. Grind only $2 Sats until I have $165.
1a. once over $150, use the 2% max buy-in rule
2. With my roll now at $165, use $150 as my new floor. Allow myself 1 opportunity to play a larger satellite ($5R to the $55k), but limit the buy in to $15. (realize this may reduce your odds of qualifying).
3. If I qualify, take the $T and set a new base level at $200.
4. I allow myself to take another shot at a bigger Sat if I just qualified in one. (Play the rush) However, if I don't qualify the second time, go back to grinding the $2 until I have enough to take another shot.
5. Continue the above targeting the Sats to the Sunday Million and raise your base levels by $200 each time you qualify.
6. Taking shots at bigger tourney's is acceptible if you grind back your buy-in using the $2, before trying again.

The net of the above is that you are always raising your base bankroll and allowing yourself the chances to take a shot or two to a big game.

Result so far playing recreationally (4 - 5 tourneys/day)

Starting B/R Sept. 28, 2007 ---- $22.57
B/R Oct 26, 2007 --------------- $148.89

I had a god awful run last week going 0 for 19 before finally cashing, thus decimating my ROI, but I feel good so far.

What do you think? Is this a realistic process?

I'll check back, and if the thread is too old and few people respond, I'll repost as its own thread, as I think there may be some validity to this process.

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 4, Bankroll management
 

I prefer BR = 200x avg buyin. I think that's about where ROR gets pushed to 2 sigma for the avg good player with a few percent edge after rake.

Max buyin = 5% BR is about right, but you have to closely track what your avg buyin really is. It's easy to lie to yourself.

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 4, Bankroll management
 

Where does my online roll stop and my real life monies begin? What is a standard proportion of roll to savings?

Also, after bustoing my roll and then building it back up to a fraction of what it used to be... how do I deal with the fact that I can't bring myself to play buy ins <$50, even though I should be?

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 4, Bankroll management
 

[ QUOTE ]
Where does my online roll stop and my real life monies begin? What is a standard proportion of roll to savings?

Also, after bustoing my roll and then building it back up to a fraction of what it used to be... how do I deal with the fact that I can't bring myself to play buy ins <$50, even though I should be?

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, why don't you ask your friend on AIM about it? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].

I dunno - you are easily a top rated SSMTT player. Some of your moves are somewhat questionable, but always within reason. Take the plunge and play a bigger one? You're a beast, there is no reason that you shouldn't be playing at higher levels and learning how to pwn them.

Barry

Re: Things it took me a while to learn part 4, Bankroll management
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Where does my online roll stop and my real life monies begin? What is a standard proportion of roll to savings?

Also, after bustoing my roll and then building it back up to a fraction of what it used to be... how do I deal with the fact that I can't bring myself to play buy ins <$50, even though I should be?

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, why don't you ask your friend on AIM about it? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

ZING!!! Wp, sir.

[ QUOTE ]

I dunno - you are easily a top rated SSMTT player. Some of your moves are somewhat questionable, but always within reason. Take the plunge and play a bigger one? You're a beast, there is no reason that you shouldn't be playing at higher levels and learning how to pwn them.

Barry

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm maybe my arrow was pointing the wrong way? What I meant was, I am used to playing buy ins over $50 exclusively, but now that I have severely damaged my online roll, I SHOULD move down but I can't bring myself to play smaller stakes bc I haven't done it in so long.

edit: thanks for the props. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]