6/12 Live: More garbage in the big blind
 

Hero is dealt 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A bunch of people call (let's say 5) and hero checks. The table is motley; the players in the hand are:

UTG = 21 year old white kid, seems loose preflop, but aggressive post flop.
UTG+1 = Crazy Russian Guy (CRG) who limps or cold calls any two, then plays super passively after the flop unless he has a draw, which he bets heavily (I'm not kidding) if it's checked to him, or a 5 card made hand (which he also bets)
3 random humans that I'm working on getting a read on.

2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Hero bets, UTG raises, CRG calls, one other random human calls in LP, I make it 3 bets, all call.

2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Hero bets, UTG instantly raises, CRG calls two cold (he has the Ace or King of spade here I think). Hero calls.

2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

River blessedly neither pairs the board nor has a shovel on it. Hero decides to check/call.

Thoughts?

Re: 6/12 Live: More garbage in the big blind
 

Scream yahtzee.

I usually check the flop. Why, I am not being results oriented I swear, because if the aggressive UTG raises he shuts out the field of suckers you want putting in money when you have like 50% or more equity. But somehow they almost all called anyway and you got to 3bet which is awesome.
Checking will also give you a little more information about the holdings of the other players before it gets back to you and you put the hammer down.

But I want to weigh this c/r the field option against a bet (when you think UTG/EP player will raise to isolate you) OR a checkraise of a late position PFR. If the pot was bigger (raised preflop) this would be better because you want to maximize your chance of winning by going headsup having a hand that is at least 50% to win by the river. But in the given hand, the pot is smaller and you want to exploit your equity and build it rather than trying to win it more often.

Turn is close between calling and 3-betting based on your read of UTG's big street behavior. You want to get more bets from CRG if possible.
UTG is definitely betting river after this action. c/c is cool.

Re: 6/12 Live: More garbage in the big blind
 

Raise preflop!

I think I like the flop play. I want to make sure money is going into this pot. Besides, most of our opponents at this limit will call two if they were going to call one. So sweet. And rock the threetown. Awesome.

Turn goot, I think. I'm tempted to threebet but I don't think calling is bad.

I might donk the river to make sure it doesn't get checked around. If your read leads you to believe that UTG will almost certainly bet if checked to and you have committed to your hard plastic showdown shell for 1 bet, then I like the c/c.

NH. I think I do this exactly the same. But I would have taken 5 seconds to think about threetown on the turn.

Re: 6/12 Live: More garbage in the big blind
 

I think I can find a 3-bet on the turn against the aggro UTG. It might be spew, but if he caps, I just call from there. He could easily roll a set/two pair here and thinks his hand is good.

Re: 6/12 Live: More garbage in the big blind
 

super standard, I don't like overvaluing the nut low flush here [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 6/12 Live: More garbage in the big blind
 

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Raise preflop!

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You, sir, are my hero. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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I think I like the flop play. I want to make sure money is going into this pot. Besides, most of our opponents at this limit will call two if they were going to call one. So sweet. And rock the threetown. Awesome.

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If you're sure they're all going to call 2 cold, I agree. Most of the live games I play, though, this isn't necessarily the case. You're almost certain to get 2 bets out of them by c/r'ing, and I'd much rather get 2 bets from 5 people than 3 bets from 2 or 3 with this hand.

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NH. I think I do this exactly the same. But I would have taken 5 seconds to think about threetown on the turn.

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Meh. I'm a spew-monkey and even I don't know about a turn 3-bet, especially since as OP describes it I'm not at all confident whether our hand is even good. Having said that, when a blank hits in real life I'm almost always leading this river, and making a crying call to a raise to see UTG's, oh, 7-high flush.

Mook

Re: 6/12 Live: More garbage in the big blind
 

Fine. Given UTG's flop raise, that turn is a total brick except that it completes a spade draw and yours is the nut worst. I hope the pfr comments are a joke.

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Meh. I'm a spew-monkey and even I don't know about a turn 3-bet, especially since as OP describes it I'm not at all confident whether our hand is even good. Having said that, when a blank hits in real life I'm almost always leading this river, and making a crying call to a raise to see UTG's, oh, 7-high flush.

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Unless you think UTG is going to check behind this river after this action your river bet is pointless and -EV even if you are a favorite to have the best hand.

Re: 6/12 Live: More garbage in the big blind
 

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If you're sure they're all going to call 2 cold, I agree.

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I'm not sure but I think leading and getting raised is a hell of a lot better than having it checked around. I think on a baby flop like this that is more likely than usual.

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Most of the live games I play, though, this isn't necessarily the case.

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Where do you play? I'll bet it's the east coast, right, right!? I played at Foxwoods once; what a bunch of nits. This wouldn't be the first time I have had my analysis skewed by what I'm used to in my live game. I play at Canterbury, the North American Capital of Loose Passive (I've trademarked that phrase, BTW).



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I'm a spew-monkey and even I don't know about a turn 3-bet

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I clearly am the superior spew-monkey. Bet/3bet his FACE, yeah! Well, not in this hand...

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describes it I'm not at all confident whether our hand is even good

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Oh, it's good. I'm willing to put cashmonies on that. I think UTG flopped a straight. 54 sooted; bank that.

Re: 6/12 Live: More garbage in the big blind
 

after the flop action, i kind of doubt that UTG is putting us on a flush when the turn comes. given his description i would 3bet. this would also charge the single spades max to draw.

Re: 6/12 Live: More garbage in the big blind
 

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Besides, most of our opponents at this limit will call two if they were going to call one.

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I disagree with this. The "ace-high" flop peel is pretty common for one bet, but not two. Same deal with a weak two overcards hand like J9 or Q8.

Re: 6/12 Live: More garbage in the big blind
 

I'd definitely 3-bet the turn here. Your hand doesn't look like a flush.

-McGee

Re: 6/12 Live: More garbage in the big blind
 

I prefer the bet, 3-bet line, because thinning the field with this hand is not a bad result. You have a massive number of outs that could be cleaned up by thinning the field. If you can get someone holding a 3, 4, 5, or single high spade to fold, you will increase your odds of winning, or avoid a chopped pot (for the 5).

You don't mind them calling, but I'd rather have them pay 1 or 3 bets rather than 0 or 2. If I didn't have the pair, I would like check-raising more. Either play is going to be okay though.

I think 3-betting the turn is the best play. You put one of your opponents on a high spade, and the other is aggressive. He doesn't need a flush to raise here. Charge him. Bet a blank river. Flush over flush is an unfortunate possibility, but relatively rare. Suck it up and 3-bet.



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Why, I am not being results oriented I swear, because if the aggressive UTG raises he shuts out the field of suckers you want putting in money when you have like 50% or more equity.

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Re: 6/12 Live: More garbage in the big blind
 

On the flop I like to check with a hand like this if I know that I can rely on someone to bet. In this case we have no pf raiser and no assurances that a bet is going in. I would also bet.

I would 3-bet the turn, especially with CRG along for the ride. I am reluctant to put UTG on a flush because he tried to shut out the field on the flop in a small pot. UTG raising the flop to protect an ace with a hand such as AsXs would be OK in a large pot but there are 6 SB in the pot when he raises this flop.

Re: 6/12 Live: More garbage in the big blind
 

I don't hate how you played this...although you should probably 3b the turn to make a higher [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] pay to chase you down. But with a baby flush and someone else betting for you caution is at least understandable.

Re: 6/12 Live: More garbage in the big blind
 

When I first read this I thought this was a super easy three bet on the turn based upon the reads of the players involved and your hand of course. I would like someone to convince me why this is not the play here. Perhaps I am missing something.

Re: 6/12 Live: More garbage in the big blind
 

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When I first read this I thought this was a super easy three bet on the turn based upon the reads of the players involved and your hand of course. I would like someone to convince me why this is not the play here.

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Why it's not "super easy" is because (1) even though UTG is aggressive the read doesn't say he's a moron. The 3-flush is obvious and he has to at least consider the guy behind him might be drawing to it, combined with the possibility Hero is pumping a draw.

And (2) try putting UTG on a hand that hero beats that: doesn't cap the flop, but decides to raise a flush-completing Q. AsQx? QQ? He would probably raise preflop. 54? A set? He would probably cap the flop. It would have to be something daffy like Q6 which may be in his range but we are playing against his entire range not just the junky part.

Re: 6/12 Live: More garbage in the big blind
 

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And (2) try putting UTG on a hand that hero beats that: doesn't cap the flop, but decides to raise a flush-completing Q.

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This is exactly what caused my head to hurt at the table. He didn't cap the flop, and that, at least to me, screamed "I have a big flush draw...me, right here". I mean, he's gotta cap the straight and sets, right? How do you not 4-bet those? Had he just 4-bet the flop, I would have had no trouble 3 betting the turn.

Re: 6/12 Live: More garbage in the big blind
 

You bring up very good points. When I said "super easy" that was my first instinct before I really thought about it. Obviously this is not a super easy choice. I would have to be there and have good reads to make it three bets. Calling is certainly reasonable given the information we have.